Can we re-unite Samuel with Branch?

[amazinPats]

I used to be a proponent of a hard line stance where NE would maintain their rights to franchise Asante again next year, so they could possibly earn a first round pick in a trade. Now my thinking is moving towards tossing the franchise option next year in exchange for a guarantee that Asante will take the field shortly. We then lose him to free agency and get a 3rd comp pick (which isn't too shabby.)

It might be the best way to go.

 

[Deus Irae]

Woah woah. Put down the pipe. I'm hardly an Asante apologist but that's just silly.

We know Asante is better than Hobbs because both started last years and it was obvious who the better player was. We can assume he's better than Gay because he's been starting for a few years and Gay hasn't. Yes Gay did a fine job in the '04 playoffs. Let's not get ahead of ourselves though. We can also assume he's better than Merriweather because he's a rookie. Asante's experience is a huge advantage the rookie doesn't have.

The team would be able to get by without him, but the notion that the team might not be worse without him is outlandish.

Hobbs was definitely better than Samuel prior to his getting injured. I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say it was obvious who was the better player....

 

[dryheat44]

Woah woah. Put down the pipe. I'm hardly an Asante apologist but that's just silly.

We know Asante is better than Hobbs because both started last years and it was obvious who the better player was. We can assume he's better than Gay because he's been starting for a few years and Gay hasn't. Yes Gay did a fine job in the '04 playoffs. Let's not get ahead of ourselves though. We can also assume he's better than Merriweather because he's a rookie. Asante's experience is a huge advantage the rookie doesn't have.

The team would be able to get by without him, but the notion that the team might not be worse without him is outlandish.

And the former - no, not former, armchair - quarterback in me says the reason Asante made all those plays defensively was because the other teams' offensive co-ordinator/quarterback thought that Hobbs was tougher to throw on. It's not as if Asante was following around the #1 WR, he stayed on one side of the field. Unless he's Deion Sanders, and played loose of the receiver to bait the throw, which is possible, I guess.

We can't assume he's better than Blue, because Blue's been hurt the past two seasons.

I don't know the answer without studying game film, but I could argue it either way.

 

[dryheat44]

I used to be a proponent of a hard line stance where NE would maintain their rights to franchise Asante again next year, so they could possibly earn a first round pick in a trade. Now my thinking is moving towards tossing the franchise option next year in exchange for a guarantee that Asante will take the field shortly. We then lose him to free agency and get a 3rd comp pick (which isn't too shabby.)

It might be the best way to go.

Actually, I think they should start offering to extend guys mid-season. Graham, whom I believe, and Vinatieri, whom I don't, both said that they would have signed the offer the Patriots made had it not come so late that they could taste free agency. Samuel probably would have to, before the Clements deal.

 

[dhamz]

Why are you assuming a trade next year when they couldn't get one done this year?

Why are you assuming they have made any attempt to get a trade done this year?

 

[TruthSeeker]

next year they'll be looking at 3 options:
1) sign Asante to an extension
2) let him play the season and leave
3) trade him

2 is bad. #2 involves a $10M cap hit next year, Asante sitting out camp, and a comp pick. No thanks.

Why is a getting a comp pick (almost certainly at the end of the 3rd round) a bad conclusion to this? Actually, I think it's not that bad a thing at all.

 

[Pats726]

Everyone on the team understands the situation. Samuel will be welcomed with open arms. And, BB will play the best player at the position. If that is Samuel then he will play him come opening day, IF he reports with two weeks of practice left so he's ready.

That is all well and good and fine..But one does not get to get ready for playing be sitting out..OR do you think just because he's in shape that that is enough?? This is not baseball..players have to interact with one another..THAT can not be done sitting out.
He may not be ready and the longer he stays away the longer he will not be ready..I think it is that simple. What..do you think CoachB is just waiting for him and not getting ready with teh players there? Thank again..he may be the best player..but he may be far behind..and that may cost him in the long run. But that is his decision.

 

[Pats726]

And that's what I don't get from Samuel's standpoint. Honestly, if Gay can stay healthy, is it out of the question for Hobbs and Gay to start, with Merriweather the nickel? And do we know that that lineup will perform worse than one with Samuel in there? The only thing we know right now is Samuel is more durable than Gay.

I agree..and as long as he stays out..he's a non factor. Irrelevent. yes, he may come back soon, but the longer he stays out..the harder it will be for him. And since it's questionable WHEN he will come back, I assume the team is planning without him for that may be the case. And no..it's not like Seymout or others on PUP..for one, they are there and learning and working wit film etc. And two, teh team KNOWS when Seymout will be ready..it's part of the mix. With a player that holds out..it's like he's no longer with the team and THAT will hurt if he continues to hold out. So your scenario...Gay Hobbs..meriweather or even James or??? They have a set rotation that is strong..do u think when Mr Samuel returns he's automatically in the mix? I doubt it..it will ALL depend on what the situation is..how they are doing etc.

 

[PATSNUTme]

That is all well and good and fine..But one does not get to get ready for playing be sitting out..OR do you think just because he's in shape that that is enough?? This is not baseball..players have to interact with one another..THAT can not be done sitting out.
He may not be ready and the longer he stays away the longer he will not be ready..I think it is that simple. What..do you think CoachB is just waiting for him and not getting ready with teh players there? Thank again..he may be the best player..but he may be far behind..and that may cost him in the long run. But that is his decision.

You make many assumptions about what I think, after asking what I think. And I am well aware this is not baseball, I don't like baseball that much.

I will type this slowly this time you can tell what I think. As long as he reports for the first practice after game 3 he will have plenty of time to get ready for week 1 of the regular season. IF BB thinks he is the best player to be starting game 1, he will start him. If not, BB will start someone else.

There you have what I think. So, now you can stop asking me what I think and post what you think.

 

[Pats726]

As long as he reports for the first practice after game 3 he will have plenty of time to get ready for week 1 of the regular season. IF BB thinks he is the best player to be starting game 1, he will start him. If not, BB will start someone else.

The ONLY problem with that is the THIRD game is the dress rehearsal to Game one..it always has been the case and the past few years the starters and some others did not play in Game 4. So basically..if that is the case, he will not be ready. I have thought he would report after game 2..but who really knows?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree..and as long as he stays out..he's a non factor. Irrelevent. yes, he may come back soon, but the longer he stays out..the harder it will be for him. And since it's questionable WHEN he will come back, I assume the team is planning without him for that may be the case. And no..it's not like Seymout or others on PUP..for one, they are there and learning and working wit film etc. And two, teh team KNOWS when Seymout will be ready..it's part of the mix. With a player that holds out..it's like he's no longer with the team and THAT will hurt if he continues to hold out. So your scenario...Gay Hobbs..meriweather or even James or??? They have a set rotation that is strong..do u think when Mr Samuel returns he's automatically in the mix? I doubt it..it will ALL depend on what the situation is..how they are doing etc.

Asante won't walk in and play that week. But he will walk in and play in two weeks unless Randall Gay is off the charts. That is a risk he assumes, but he has belief in himself being the better player. He knows BB likely shares that belief too. They are willing to pay him almost $8M this year and $6M per long term not because he's got potential, which if healthy is all Randall really still has to this point. They are offering that because he showed them last year he has above average talent and he's durable. Their only disagreement now is how far above average his talent peaks. He thinks he's Champ Bailey, they think he's in the tier below that and that is likely all they are willing to pay for a corner in this system anyway. Above average works just fine in this system.

Fans need to learn to deal with the unsavory reality that there is a business end of football. Players and HC's do just that. Fran Charles was asking Rod Woodson last night if Quinn may have hurt himself with his teamates by holding out. Rod grinned and said, no - they understand the importance of getting your business taken care of before you can play. He reminded Fran that he held out until the 28th of August before signing his rookie deal. And the veterans on his team told him to make sure he did whatever he needed to do to get that part done right, cause if you don't FO's aren't generally going willingly to do anything to rectify that down the road. We see that here too when fans say if he didn't like the deal he shouldn't have signed it - well much as we fans would like to you can't have it both ways.

Right now Asante is in the drivers seat. He's playing the only card in his hand, the holdout card. The first two weeks of camp and the first couple of pre season games gives the team a chance to evaluate the unit (the cards in BB's hand) in his absence. That could theoretically work against him, but thus far it hasn't. The card Bill chose to play from the opening of camp is now on IR. We are about to see how the next card Belichick plays fares. If he does exceptionally well, Asante will start to loose leverage rapidly. If he doesn't, or if he too gets hurt, Asante may gain substantial leverage. This is guts poker where you don't need to be dealt a winning hand if for your opponent at some point doesn't like the looks of his hand and decides to fold.

 

[BelichickFan]

Right now Asante is in the drivers seat.

I'm not sure Samuel is in the driver's seat. Both sides seem to be moving along fine without each other right now. Scott's injury is a shame but with Meriweather, Gay, James all competing for the #2 CB spot we're OK - not great at all but OK. Remember by utilizing the LTBE bonus thingy we can move any game checks Samuel misses this year into next year (per Miguel) so that's a tradeoff too - downgrade at CB now but $500K or so extra next year per game missed.

Both sides need each other but I don't think either side is bothered enough right now to care a whole lot. The Patriot ship is moving on without him, he's not is the driver's seat.

 

[Pats726]

Right now Asante is in the drivers seat. He's playing the only card in his hand, the holdout card. The first two weeks of camp and the first couple of pre season games gives the team a chance to evaluate the unit (the cards in BB's hand) in his absence. That could theoretically work against him, but thus far it hasn't. The card Bill chose to play from the opening of camp is now on IR. We are about to see how the next card Belichick plays fares. If he does exceptionally well, Asante will start to loose leverage rapidly. If he doesn't, or if he too gets hurt, Asante may gain substantial leverage. This is guts poker where you don't need to be dealt a winning hand if for your opponent at some point doesn't like the looks of his hand and decides to fold.

I'm not sure he's in any driver's seat..he is playing the card that he has, but who knows how that will turn out. I agree this period gives a chance to see what cards there are, but it isn't like it's Game one..that counts. Yes, I think there will be evaluations and one might see some things..but game one and two are really only the beginning, so one would have to project from there...no finished product to start. Any injuries, I agree would definitely play in his favor, although the team could pick up a vet to fill in..so that too is a gamble. Will it be perception that will rule? If the DBs are perceived as being competent and strong? How much will that depend on that one opposite Hobbs? Or many factors? I agree..if whoever plays there plays like Starks or if there are any more serious injuries, it might be that winning card is a trump...but if that is not the case..will that card turn into an 8 or 9 or a Jack? I agree it is a poker game, but I think Asante has a lot to lose by sitting, maybe more than he realizes.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

I don't see Asante having too much trouble coming back quickly. He's been starting in this system for years, alongside everyone but Merriweather and Thomas. I don't think he's suddenly going to forget how to play CB, or all of a sudden no longer have any communication with Harrison, Hobbs, and Wilson. I'm not saying it's a non-issue. I'm saying it's overrated.

Also, I don't think NE wants a comp pick at the end of the 3rd round for Asante. If they can trade him for a pick somewhere between 15-40, why would they be happy with pick #95 (and the comp pick is hardly guaranteed to be a 3rd if they sign a big free agent)? On top of a $10M cap hit and another year of holding out it makes it a no-brainer to trade him.

 

[QuiGon]

Right now Asante is in the drivers seat. He's playing the only card in his hand, the holdout card.

I think you contradict yourself here... if he was "in the driver's seat" he would probably have more than just one card (the "holdout card") in his hand.

Bottom line is that over the past summer, Samuel had 2 options without resorting to any drastic measures:

1) Accept NE's contract offer
2) Sign Franchise tender.

So now we've moved on past July 15 and option (1) is off the table. He's really got no choices left unless he is willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of dollars per week. He can make about as much money in 2 weeks this season as he has made in his entire career. I am not sure that's someone "in the driver's seat". (EDIT: I made this post before reading BelichickFan's post... any similarities are coincidental... I swear..!! )

The first two weeks of camp and the first couple of pre season games gives the team a chance to evaluate the unit (the cards in BB's hand) in his absence. That could theoretically work against him, but thus far it hasn't. The card Bill chose to play from the opening of camp is now on IR. We are about to see how the next card Belichick plays fares.

I think Belichick has already laid his cards down on the table. There's nothing left to play and no maneuvers left to make. They're not going to pull another Deion and trade him at this point.

If he does exceptionally well, Asante will start to loose leverage rapidly. If he doesn't, or if he too gets hurt, Asante may gain substantial leverage. This is guts poker where you don't need to be dealt a winning hand if for your opponent at some point doesn't like the looks of his hand and decides to fold.

What good is gaining or losing leverage at this point..? They can't up the offer or anything like that. The ball is in Asante's court. There's really no way they can significantly negotiate or compromise on anything here even if they wanted to... I suppose they could do an under-the-table agreement or something like that...

 

[Pats726]

Asante won't walk in and play that week. But he will walk in and play in two weeks unless Randall Gay is off the charts. That is a risk he assumes, but he has belief in himself being the better player. He knows BB likely shares that belief too. They are willing to pay him almost $8M this year and $6M per long term not because he's got potential, which if healthy is all Randall really still has to this point. They are offering that because he showed them last year he has above average talent and he's durable. Their only disagreement now is how far above average his talent peaks. He thinks he's Champ Bailey, they think he's in the tier below that and that is likely all they are willing to pay for a corner in this system anyway. Above average works just fine in this system.

If he walked in I agree he would not play in Week one..or maybe in week 2 or week 3. I think when he played would depend on many things. ALL things being equal there is no doubt that BB and all fans believe that Samuel is better than Gay...that is Samuel with a full training camp .But that is not going to be the case if he comes back later.
It's comparing Gay (or another) who has played 4, 5 or 6 weeks with a backfield unit vs Samuel who would have 1 or 2. Which might be better? Football is a team sport and depends a lot upon players playing with others as a unit. Frankly, I think that is being overlooked here. When might Samuel be ready? And if the unit is playing strong would they wish to change it? I am not sure at what point it will matter, but it does get interesting, I agree. And this is where he could become more irrelevent if that unit in place is playing strong. he'll play I am sure, but will it be anything close to last year? Is that not a large gamble?
No doubt they valued him highly for this year to see how he turns out after a stellar half year; the reason a long term contract was much lower than Samuel's wishes. Another great year and he would probably be franchised and traded as I do not think the Pats would be willing to break the bank. It would all become moot if this season goes flat for him; he'll have lost the gamble.
Add in how it's more possible for holdouts to get injured and it's even riskier.
Remeber JWalker?
But that is all a gamble the longer it goes and it seems as BFan has said, both are pretty contented with it.

 

[Pats726]

IWhat good is gaining or losing leverage at this point..? They can't up the offer or anything like that. The ball is in Asante's court. There's really no way they can significantly negotiate or compromise on anything here even if they wanted to... I suppose they could do an under-the-table agreement or something like that...

I agree..the tender is there and it's really up to Samuel to sign it. This 'we won''t franchise you" option is silly at this point. He'll only be losing HIS moneyif he sits out and the franchise tag will STILL be there. How can NE fold? I am not sure what that really means..they have no cards left except for the Non-Franchise one and that is silly to even think about. He's only hurting his own chances by sitting out.

 

[Pats726]

I don't see Asante having too much trouble coming back quickly. He's been starting in this system for years, alongside everyone but Merriweather and Thomas. I don't think he's suddenly going to forget how to play CB, or all of a sudden no longer have any communication with Harrison, Hobbs, and Wilson. I'm not saying it's a non-issue. I'm saying it's overrated.

This is where I disagree..you think it's overrated and I think the opposite...underrated. We will have to see how it plays out. If you remember, Harrison and Wilson have been injured the past two years a great deal, so it's not like the unit from last year is the same and intact. It's why training camp is important...and missing it I think makes it more a reason he should be there. It isn't that Samuel is forgetting how to play corner..but having very little time with the current backfield is more the issue.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

This is where I disagree..you think it's overrated and I think the opposite...underrated. We will have to see how it plays out. If you remember, Harrison and Wilson have been injured the past two years a great deal, so it's not like the unit from last year is the same and intact. It's why training camp is important...and missing it I think makes it more a reason he should be there. It isn't that Samuel is forgetting how to play corner..but having very little time with the current backfield is more the issue.

But he's gone through training camp with those guys the past couple years, and when they were healthy he's played with them. He isn't building on the rapport he already has with them, but it isn't going to regress.

It's a big deal when a rookie misses camp because he has no experience in the system or with the other guys.

Eh, I guess it's just one of those "agree to disagree" things. It just strikes me as one of those things where fans are getting carried away with the little things.

 

[Pats726]

But he's gone through training camp with those guys the past couple years, and when they were healthy he's played with them. He isn't building on the rapport he already has with them, but it isn't going to regress.

It's a big deal when a rookie misses camp because he has no experience in the system or with the other guys.

Eh, I guess it's just one of those "agree to disagree" things. It just strikes me as one of those things where fans are getting carried away with the little things.

I agree..it is one of those things...and I do not doubt that I could be wrong about it. But even if we are talking about Samuel last year..it's dealing with those players from last year's ability..Wilson, Harrison, Hobbs of 06..How much does that change from one year to the next? Maybe small things, but do not little things make big differences? Especially when one is playing high caliber football?? We will see how it plays out.
Unfortunately..Felger seems to have the opinion that as Samuel sits, he's losing more and more the chance to perform like last year. He said that this afternoon. I tend to agree with him that the lloss of reps and of training camp is hurting him. A bit scary that he is of that same opinion.