PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Can we get the 2nd seed?


Status
Not open for further replies.
No chance for the #2. Patriots need to win out while SD needs to lose 2. Can't see it happening.
 
No chance for the #2. Patriots need to win out while SD needs to lose 2. Can't see it happening.

Wrong again, Jacky.

From Isaac's thread:

vs. Chargers (Pats 8-3, Chargers 9-2)
2nd tiebreaker: AFC record (Pats 5-3, Chargers 7-2)
Chargers remaining schedule:
Dec 3 @Buffalo 1:00pm (AFC)
Dec 10 Denver 4:15pm (AFC)
Dec 17 Kansas City 4:05pm (AFC)
Dec 24 @Seattle 4:15pm
Dec 31 Arizona 4:15pm
Outlook: The Chargers have to lose one of these three AFC games to give the Patriots a chance to tie this by winning out their AFC games (all but Lions game).

3rd tiebreaker: common games
Common games:
Sep 17 Tennessee Won (Pats to play)
Nov 12 @Cincinnati Won (Pats win)
Nov 19 @Denver Won (Pats loss)
Dec 3 @Buffalo (Pats win X 2)
Dec 10 Denver
Current: SD 3-0, Patriots 3-1
Remaining: SD - Denver and Buffalo; Pats - Tenn.
Outlook: If the Patriots beat Tennessee, SD needs to lose to Denver or Buffalo to force a tie.

4th tiebreaker: Strength of victory. I still ain't doing the math for this one, but currently (http://www.nfl.com/standings/conference) the Patriots have an enormous lead, so if it came to this the Patriots probably get it.

Overall: one loss by San Diego to Denver or Buffalo and the tie goes to the Patriots, otherwise the Chargers get it.
 
Guess you all missed the tiebreaker analysis I posted earlier in the week:

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=45599&highlight=tiebreaker

It's all about the Bills and Denver games for the San Diego tiebreaker, they have to lose one of those and then we get probably get it.

Here's the common games and strength of victory aspect with the Chargers:
3rd tiebreaker: common games
Common games:
Sep 17 Tennessee Won (Pats to play)
Nov 12 @Cincinnati Won (Pats win)
Nov 19 @Denver Won (Pats loss)
Dec 3 @Buffalo (Pats win X 2)
Dec 10 Denver
Current: SD 3-0, Patriots 3-1
Remaining: SD - Denver and Buffalo; Pats - Tenn.
Outlook: If the Patriots beat Tennessee, SD needs to lose to Denver or Buffalo to force a tie.

4th tiebreaker: Strength of victory. Currently (http://www.nfl.com/standings/conference) the Patriots have an enormous lead, so if it came to this the Patriots probably get it.

Here's what bugs me about understanding Common Games - why should common games count when one team plays a common opponent one time and the other plays them twice (divisional opponents).

If one of the teams is a doormat that the team that plays them twice happens to have them in their division, versus the the other team may be a very good team in which case they only have to play them once.
 
also lets not forget Rivers is a young QB who hasn't been knocked around yet and we all know its going to happen eventually this season and they'll lose atleast one because of it. Also the Ravens offense is just begging to get exposed, I mean come on? Only 7 points vs the Bungles? Pathetic.
 
Guess you all missed the tiebreaker analysis I posted earlier in the week:

http://208.109.107.176/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=45599&highlight=tiebreaker

It's all about the Bills and Denver games for the San Diego tiebreaker, they have to lose one of those and then we get probably get it.
Thanks, I guess I was right but not nearly so certain as you.

There's a decent chance the Chargers will lose one, @Buffalo won't be easy (it seems, from their last 4) and Denver could be tough depending on Cutler.

However, winning out is FAR from a given for us. Every game we should win but any slight bad game and the whole conversation is moot.
 
4th tiebreaker: Strength of victory. Currently (http://www.nfl.com/standings/conference) the Patriots have an enormous lead, so if it came to this the Patriots probably get it.
Aside from the #2 seed, that's a REMARKABLE link.

After all the talk about how we only beat bad teams, we have the #1 strength of victory in the league. #1 in the league.

.517% vs. SD's .390%. Ha, the joke's on them I guess. We're tied with the top Strength of Schedule too. I realize both numbers will come down starting tomorrow but it's a statement on what we've done so far.
 
Aside from the #2 seed, that's a REMARKABLE link.

After all the talk about how we only beat bad teams, we have the #1 strength of victory in the league. #1 in the league.

.517% vs. SD's .390%. Ha, the joke's on them I guess. We're tied with the top Strength of Schedule too. I realize both numbers will come down starting tomorrow but it's a statement on what we've done so far.

We're actually tied for second in strength of schedule:

Tenn - .574
NE - .566
Oak - .566
 
We're actually tied for second in strength of schedule:

Tenn - .574
NE - .566
Oak - .566
Sorry I missed Tennessee. Regardless, the point remains the same - it also points out that Tennessee may be a little better than we give them credit for and having road games left against Miami, Jacksonville and Tennessee is a lot more difficult to win out than we're assuming.
 
Lets not forget the Chargers came close to losing to the Raiders, so them losing one or two more games isnt unreasonable.
 
Is there any scernario where a 3way tie at 13-3 would get us the 1? I think not, because we would need the 3rd team to have a head to head win over Indy I think.

Unlikely due to our poor AFC record (2nd tiebreaker after head-to-head in 3-way tie). Indy and Baltimore would beat us out via conference record.
 
Okay, the link we really need isn't the chart, it's http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers.

Then, you need the chart.

If the Colts, Bolts, and Pats are all 13-3, we go to the "Home Field Advantage" procedures (3rd one, below), which is really what we are talking about when we talk about the "seeds":

OTHER TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES
1. Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied clubs revert to the first step of the applicable division or Wild-Card tie breakers. As an example, if two clubs remain tied in any tie-breaker step after all other clubs have been eliminated, the procedure reverts to step one of the two-club format to determine the winner. When one club wins the tie breaker, all other clubs revert to step 1 of the applicable two-club or three-club format.
2. In comparing division and conference records or records against common opponents among tied teams, the best won-lost-tied percentage is the deciding factor since teams may have played an unequal number of games.
3. To determine home-field priority among division titlists, apply Wild-Card tie breakers.

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM
If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.
1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.
2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.

(omitted... "2 clubs", in which Indy clearly beats us, if the Bolts aren't in the scenario, because Indy beat us... and the rest devolves to other scenarios you guys have talked about, if it's between us and SD for #2.)

Three or More Clubs
(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)

1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.
Easy, they're all in different divisions... they are all the highest-ranked in each division.

2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)
Indy didn't/doesn't play San Diego

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

NE wins/losses in AFC: L against Denver, L against JEST, L against Colts

So, in this scenario, Indy and SD need 3 conference losses each. To date:

Indy wins/losses in AFC: 10 Ws and 0 losses. (Their loss was to an NFC team, Dallas.

So, to introduce the uncertainty factor, SD needs to stay tied with Indy at 1-2 AFC losses. Indy has zero to date, and can lose 2 more games (total) to produce this effect. Therefore, scenarios are 0 to 2 AFC losses for Indy.

SD has losses to KC and Baltimore, so to remain tied and move on, Indy must also have 2 AFC losses. SD must lose to an NFC team (they have Seattle left, so they must lose to Seattle and win all their AFC games).

Indy has all AFC teams left, so losing both remaining losses within the AFC is eminently doable (Tennessee, Jax, Houston, Miami, Cincinnatti.)

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong - I believe this will knock us out of the whole shooting match. But if all three stay in it until the tie is broken, we go to the next step...

4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
SD - Lost to KC and Baltimore. Will have lost to Seattle.
Indy - Lost to Dallas. Will have lost to 2 of the following: Tennessee, Jax, Houston, Miami, Cincinnatti.
NE - Lost to NYJets, Denver, Indy.

Assuming "common games" mean opponents all 3 have had, the Indy loss is actually a plus here, since despite any ribald implication that Peyton is playing with himself, the Colts cannot have played the Colts - so this is not a common game. The Colts have, however, beat both Denver and the Jets.

SD will play Denver twice, and don't play the Jets (SD has already beat Denver once.) Since SD can not lose another Conference game (they have to have lost to Seattle to get past the "conference record,"), this puts SD 2 victories up on us, and they have lost to KC and Baltimore, whom we do not play. We also can't make up any ground via Seattle, not that it matters at this point, since we don't play them.

So, even if we beat Indy by this tiebreaker, SD's losses to a common opponent cannot pull us even with them.

So, is there a way for the magic to continue, by Indy having the exact same percentage among common opponents as SD? SD's losses will not count, since none are common games. The same needs to be true of Indy, to move to the next step.

Indy has thus far lost to Dallas, and must lose to two other teams, to go 13-3. Dallas is not a common game with NE and SD. So, Indy has to lose 2 games, neither of which is a "common game" with both SD and NE, for us to stay alive (SD is undefeated in common games, established by the "uncommon" nature of their 2 losses thus far, and their 1 allowed future Seattle loss.)

So, who will SD and NE have played, out of Indy's remaining foes? Remember, we need Indy to go undefeated in common games, since SD will be.

Tennessee:
NE must beat them; San Diego has beat them. Indy cannot lose this.

Jax:
NE must beat them; SD does not play them. This can be one Indy loss.

Houston
NE must beat them; SD does not play them. This can be a second Indy loss.

We need look no further (At Indy's Miami and Cinci games.) Indy can lose to Houston and Jax, to produce both desired results (undefeated in common games, with a 13-3 record.)

Again, this assumes that a "common game" means any opponent all three have played.

5. Strength of victory.
Is that "how much you win by when you win"? Well, we're doing okay here. (PF/PA, subtracting the ones we lost, and the same for the Bolts and Indy.) And there are 5 games left. I think this is where the extremely unlikely scenario gets determined, even if it happens. A tie in these numbers is just too much of a coincidence for the stars to keep aligning.

So yes, assuming all the above assumptions are correct -- especially that you don't winnow down to the best two, once one gets kicked out and 2 are tied -- well, then it is possible that the Pats win a 3-way tie, and win the first seed with a 13-3 record.

It is also possible monkies will fly out of my ass.

Seriously, the more likely scenario seems to be catastrophic failure on the part of the colts (a 2-3 record in remaining games,) and an ugly little 3-2 run on the part of the bolts, leaving us on top at 13-3.

And neither of those seem that likely to me either.

PFnV
 
Okay the more I look at this, the more it's obvious we can't win the three-way 13-3 scenario...

"Three or More Clubs
(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)"

We lose a couple steps along the way, and I counted on the Colts/Bolts tie to keep us in it, unlikely as it seems. It looks like we are OUT in an extensive 3-way tie. So we're looking at hoping for 2-3 for the Colts, 3-2 for the Bolts, and 5 in a row for us, to win the conference.

I'll take the 2 seed!

PFnV
 
Here's what bugs me about understanding Common Games - why should common games count when one team plays a common opponent one time and the other plays them twice (divisional opponents).

If one of the teams is a doormat that the team that plays them twice happens to have them in their division, versus the the other team may be a very good team in which case they only have to play them once.

The whole notion of "common games" is very confusing. The rules do NOT say "common opponents."

I'm not sure what it means, but the whole idea of there being "common games" when team A plays a common opponent once but team B plays that common opponent twice is very confusing. I would argue that for tie breaking purposes, there really is only one common GAME in that situation.

With the San Diego comparison, it balances out, because we each will have played one common opponent one more time than the other guy (Denver for them and Buffalo for us). It seems to me that if San Diego were to beat Buffalo but lose to Denver, they would FEEL more deserving of the tie breaker than we would. Doesn't seem to work that way, though.

One other thing that's interesting is that it appears that strength of victory percentages take into account the loss that you hung on the other team. It shouldn't be that way. In other words, your opponents' win percentage should be calculated by taking out what they did against you. So if the bears end up the season at 13-3, I would argue that their record for purposes of figuring out OUR strength of victory should be considered to be 13-2. Where this would matter is when you're talking about teams that you've beaten twice. You shouldn't get punished by having both of those losses count against your strength of victory, since you were the team that won the games. Think of it this way -- imagine that Buffalo finishes the season at 9-7, and we beat them twice but San Diego beats them only once. Buffalo's record for purposes of our strength of victory should be better for us than it is for San Diego. We shouldn't be punished for having won two of those games. For purposes of our strength of victory, Buffalo's record should be 9-5 and for San Diego it should be 9-6. Put another way, rather than dealing with percentages, I agree with what a poster above said -- just count up how many wins the teams you beat had, and whichever team's number is higher is the winner.
 
Last edited:
Excellent point about being penalized for beating a div opponent twice.
 
Whew!! This is one of the very very few threads that has given me a serious headache as in ever. :confused:

Bottom-line, the Bolts must win out to keep what we got with no questions asked. I think I will just stick with that!:)
 
Last edited:
Rather have to do that with our sked than yours! Good luck with that ;)

PFnV
 
The whole notion of "common games" is very confusing. The rules do NOT say "common opponents."

I'm not sure what it means, but the whole idea of there being "common games" when team A plays a common opponent once but team B plays that common opponent twice is very confusing. I would argue that for tie breaking purposes, there really is only one common GAME in that situation.

With the San Diego comparison, it balances out, because we each will have played one common opponent one more time than the other guy (Denver for them and Buffalo for us). It seems to me that if San Diego were to beat Buffalo but lose to Denver, they would FEEL more deserving of the tie breaker than we would. Doesn't seem to work that way, though.

One other thing that's interesting is that it appears that strength of victory percentages take into account the loss that you hung on the other team. It shouldn't be that way. In other words, your opponents' win percentage should be calculated by taking out what they did against you. So if the bears end up the season at 13-3, I would argue that their record for purposes of figuring out OUR strength of victory should be considered to be 13-2. Where this would matter is when you're talking about teams that you've beaten twice. You shouldn't get punished by having both of those losses count against your strength of victory, since you were the team that won the games. Think of it this way -- imagine that Buffalo finishes the season at 9-7, and we beat them twice but San Diego beats them only once. Buffalo's record for purposes of our strength of victory should be better for us than it is for San Diego. We shouldn't be punished for having won two of those games. For purposes of our strength of victory, Buffalo's record should be 9-5 and for San Diego it should be 9-6. Put another way, rather than dealing with percentages, I agree with what a poster above said -- just count up how many wins the teams you beat had, and whichever team's number is higher is the winner.


The rule states: "Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four."

These are the three contenders for #2 seed. For the sake of this discussion, if there were a three way tie and let's say we get to the "common games" tiebreaker and assume SD beats Denver in their second meeting - will SD get the bye based on the fact they beat Denver once (series split) and Ravens and Patriots both lost to Denver in their only meeting?? Is this they way it would be interpreted?

SD schedule:
Sep 11 @Oakland Won 27-0
Sep 17 Tennessee Won 40-7
Week 3 BYE
Oct 1 @Baltimore Lost 13-16
Oct 8 Pittsburgh Won 23-13
Oct 15 @San Francisco Won 48-19
Oct 22 @Kansas City Lost 27-30
Oct 29 St. Louis Won 38-24
Nov 5 Cleveland Won 32-25
Nov 12 @Cincinnati Won 49-41
Nov 19 @Denver Won 35-27
Nov 26 Oakland Won 21-14
Dec 3 @Buffalo 1:00pm 130 152
Dec 10 Denver 4:15pm 143 123
Dec 17 Kansas City 4:05pm 147 123
Dec 24 @Seattle 4:15pm 125 123
Dec 31 Arizona 4:15pm



NE schedule:
Sep 10 Buffalo Won 19-17
Sep 17 @N.Y. Jets Won 24-17
Sep 24 Denver Lost 7-17
Oct 1 @Cincinnati Won 38-13
Oct 8 Miami Won 20-10
Week 6 BYE
Oct 22 @Buffalo Won 28-6
Oct 30 @Minnesota Won 31-7
Nov 5 Indianapolis Lost 20-27
Nov 12 N.Y. Jets Lost 14-17
Nov 19 @Green Bay Won 35-0
Nov 26 Chicago Won 17-13
Dec 3 Detroit 1:00pm 121 181
Dec 10 @Miami 1:00pm 110 143
Dec 17 Houston 1:00pm 144 118
Dec 24 @Jacksonville 1:00pm 123 146
Dec 31 @Tennessee 1:00pm

Raven schedule:

Sep 10 @Tampa Bay Won 27-0
Sep 17 Oakland Won 28-6
Sep 24 @Cleveland Won 15-14
Oct 1 San Diego Won 16-13
Oct 9 @Denver Lost 3-13
Oct 15 Carolina Lost 21-23
Week 7 BYE
Oct 29 @New Orleans Won 35-22
Nov 5 Cincinnati Won 26-20
Nov 12 @Tennessee Won 27-26
Nov 19 Atlanta Won 24-10
Nov 26 Pittsburgh Won 27-0
Nov 30 @Cincinnati Lost 7-13
Dec 10 @Kansas City 1:00pm 130 119
Dec 17 Cleveland 1:00pm 158
Dec 24 @Pittsburgh 1:00pm 117 107
Dec 31 Buffalo 1:00pm
 
Maybe but I bet we get the #3 seed.
There is a huge advantage to getting the #2 seed instead of the #3 - a bye week is huge. Only the first two seeds in each conference get a bye.
 
Yah. The 1 and 2 seed can be considered "basket 1", while the 3-6 seeds can be considered "basket 2." Basically, from within that second basket, 3 and 4 (division winners) play the two wild-card teams, so you don't have to play another division winner in the wild card round at least. But you still have to win 4 postseason games instead of 3, in the big picture.

To me, it's just points for style as to whether you're the 1 or 2 seed. Ditto for 3 through 6. It's the diff between the baskets that counts.

I have too much of a headache to go through the common games among Baltimore, NE, and SD... probably by the end of the whole thing, this won't matter at all. We're fighting for the 2 seed. If we go 13-3, we should just hope that's enough (gotta love that conference imbalance.)

As of this morning, it would be SD and Indy taking the week off, and NE and Balt. playing KC and Denver (don't know who would draw which.) Talk to me this afternoon LOL.

PFnV
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Bruschi’s Proudest Moment: Former LB Speaks to MusketFire’s Marshall in Recent Interview
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/22: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-21, Kraft-Belichick, A.J. Brown Trade?
MORSE: Patriots Draft Needs and Draft Related Info
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/19: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/16: News and Notes
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/15: News and Notes
Back
Top