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Can someone who KNOWS clarify the legality of tag-and-trade?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, Feb 8, 2009.

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  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is there a rule that you cannot tag a player and trade them, or tag them in order to trade them?
    There is RAMPANT speculation, even people talking about teams filing grievances against with the league, and speculation that BB (aka scummy rule breaker) will just lie to pretend that wasn't his intention.

    Can someone PLEASE once and for all clarify and show where this RULE exists?

    I'm guessing Miguel would be the authority.

    Please do not respond with opinion, guess or uncertainty.
    Cousin's girlfriends uncle's neighbors bosses barber does not count as authority.
  2. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    here's the rules on franchise tagging...I would guess the answer you seek is somewhere in here...

    • A club can designate one franchise player or one transition player in any given year.

    • The salary level offer by a player's old club determines what type of franchise player he is.

    • An "exclusive" franchise player -- not free to sign with another club -- is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of April 16, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater.

    • If the player is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries of last season at his position, or 120 percent of the player’s previous year’s salary, he becomes a “non-exclusive” franchise player and can negotiate with other clubs. His old club can match a new club's offer, or receive two first-round draft choices if it decides not to match. The signing period for non-exclusive franchise players to sign with new clubs is March 3 through November 9 (10th week of the season).

    • A transition player has received a minimum offer of the average of the top 10 salaries of last season at the player's position or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater.

    • A transition player designation gives the club a first-refusal right to match within seven days an offer sheet given to the player by another club after his contract expires. If the club matches, it retains the player. If it does not match, it receives no compensation. Transition players can be signed from March 3 through July 22
  3. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I see nothing in the rules that would have anything to do with what these "people" are prattling on about.
  4. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks, you've set the ground level, showing rules that do not include anything about not being able to trade.
    Now, if anyone has a rule in addition to these that says that, please respond here.
  5. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Those rules are actually a simplification of the CBA, which is posted in its entirety on NFLPlayers.com. [You can browse it section-by-section here; near the upper left is a link to download a 3MB PDF file.]

    In any case, this provision in Article XIV, on contracts in general, is the closest I can find in the CBA to such a rule:

  6. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thank you, this seems quite clear:

    If I'm reading this correctly...

    The "good faith" concerns focus primarily on an extended but NOT accepted tender; i.e. you can't use the control that the tender gives you to try to strongarm the player into an unfair deal. Once the tender is accepted, "good faith to employ" is moot. The player is now signed to a guaranteed contract, and you're 100% on the hook...barring a trade. And trades are explicitly permitted.
  7. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now what does "extending " mean? Does this mean AFTER a franchise tag is applied, THEN when there's an extension later on? Or is the act of applying the franchise tag an extension?
  8. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In this case it appears extend=reach out/offer, not lengthen.
  9. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    Not sure why people think that trading a player under tender (franchise, transitional, restricted) is a problem. As you quote, the CBA explicitly states that teams don't give up rights under this process. The only thing that would be frowned upon would be team efforts to somehow force the player to accept different (persumably less favorable) terms.

    I have never seen anything that suggests it is bad form to use a franchise tag with the goal of initiating a trade. As long as the player either gets the tender amount or freely renegotiates a more favorable contract, everything is right with the world. Unless Cassel was somehow threatened or forced to sign the tender or other terms as part of a trade, can't see the basis for complaints.
  10. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The way I interpet the wording, the 'good faith' refers strictly to the next line, in attempting to coerce the player to sign a contract for less than the franchise tender. The fact that it expilicitly goes on to specify that a team can still trade the player - and in fact, can even franchise the player with the intention of trading him.

    The 'Pats are breaking the rules' because they are 'franchising Cassel with the intent of trading him' is another one of those untrue comments that gets repeated so many times that people assume it must be true.


    Edit: Excellent job Joker and ctpatsfan77 digging up that info - thank you.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2009
  11. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If our interpretations are correct, Cassel gave up his rights when he signed the tender. Minny, the jets and the others can be pi$$ed that they cannot have Cassel for two firsts without negotiations with the patriots, but Cassel decided against. The patriots will now

    1) pay Cassel $14.6M.

    2) trade Cassel to a team that will be willing to give a pick for a one-year contract,

    3) work with Cassel and his agent(s) to get a win-win deal for the patriots, Cassel and a team they jointly agree to.

    4) wait until the team has more information on Brady (or has secured a veteran backup for lots less than $14.6M) and trade Cassel wherever.

    It seems that Cassel had little faith that he is worth a solid contract in the market place and two firsts. He could have waited and had all the cards in his hand.
  12. pats63

    pats63 Rookie

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    sounds like the pats are doing everything right....teams are piss off they don't have te player or brains....so in other words puck off
  13. PatsFaninME

    PatsFaninME Rookie

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    It amazes me to what extent people will go to claim Belichick is somehow cheating. Just shows how brilliant Belichick is and how far ahead of the rest of the NFL Coaches/GM's he is.
  14. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are a lot of idiots out there, and a lot of people that hate the Pats because of their success, so whatever we do people will cry foul. When Brady went down a lot of people thought we were screwed. Belichick kept calm and stuck with an unproven Cassel when a lot of people thought our season was down the drain and that he should trade for a journeyman vet QB. Now his prescience and confidence in Cassel is going to pay off in a big way, and some of the same people are insane with jealousy. They will cry foul whatever happens.

    The NFLPA has nothing to complain about. The Pats showed faith in Cassel when no one else did, and he is $14M richer for it, the most lucrative franchise tag ever signed. He will either play at that rate or get rewarded with a lucrative long term deal consistent with one of the better QBs in the league.

    No one forced Cassel to sign the franchise tender. He obviously has a lot of regard for the Pats and is aware that he wouldn't be where he is today without their mentoring and confidence in him. Having signed the tender, he is the Pats' property and they can trade him anytime they want (subject to league trading deadlines, of course). He retains the ability to effectively kill a trade by refusing to sign a long term deal with teams that he wouldn't want to play for, which gives him essentially the same control as he had when he was a FA. The Pats will likely give him permission to seek a deal with other teams, but they have the ultimate say on what compensation they will accept.

    I believe that the CBA is clear in this area, and precedent with other teams will also argue against any foul. If any other team than the Pats were involved, it would be a non-issue. But because it is us, people will cry foul no matter what. We should expect it, but not be worried about it.
  15. Patsrock

    Patsrock Rookie

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    I know you said no guessing. But I think once he signed his franchise tender any complaints by NFLPA and other teams no longer exist. He did not have to sign the tender he could have gone out an talked to other teams.
  16. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's not a question of his perceived value, it's a question of whether he felt that a team would offer two firsts for him.
  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are several other possibilities that you ingore....

    1.) Concern that the team would rescind

    2.) The possibility that a deal has already been made in principle

    3.) The likely reality that the team has been forthright about their intentions to trade/keep Cassel, so that the signing was nothing more than a formality.
  18. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    What cards does Cassel no longer hold?

    He can still block a trade with any team by refusing to sign a long-term contract to consumate the deal.

    That's a pretty powerful card AND as a fall back he gave himself the assurance of at least $14.65 million for this season ALONE - creating a worst case scenario where he collects more in 2009 and 2010 when he'd go back into free agency (or tagged again at a 10-20% hike) and get another upfront guaranteed signing bonus... likely much more than he'd be getting guranteed for the first two years if he signs a long-term contract with the Pats or another team this year.

    As I said all along, it made sense for Cassel to sign the tender from a money perspective. I still think he wants to start and that means accepting a trade to another team - but he's made it clear he's not about to accept a discount for doing so. I can't really blame him for that.
  19. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    If I were Matt Cassel, I think I might just tell the NFLPA, thanks but no thanks. I've just gotten a $14 million raise on my salary from last year and there is the possibility that I might get a new contract for double that, at least...
  20. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Granted it's not likely, but he couldn't block a deal for a team willing to pay the franchise price.
  21. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    That settles that. As long as they don't try to weasel out of paying him 14.6 mil, they are in compliance. Of course they can trade him to avoid that possibility.
  22. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Cassel signing the tender makes the point a moot one. He's under contract for 2009 with the New England Patriots, we can do whatever we want with him now.
  23. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, he does lose the power to block a trade for a team that is willing to roll the dice and have Cassel on the roster for one year and $14.65 million. Highly unlikely that it would happen, but team desperate enough to win now might do it and roll the dice that they can either tag Cassel next year or convince him to sign a long term deal at some point after he is traded and before he becomes a free agent.
  24. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    BTW, the only one who can initiate a grievance in this case would be Cassel and I don't see it happening even if he does have the ability to after he signed the tender.
  25. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1) The risk would be very short term. There is no trade worth anything if Cassel doesn't cooperate. I am only suggesting that Cassel should have waited until the week after the beginning of free agency to sign.

    2) This option should have been listed by me.

    3) Why should Cassel settle for less? To sign, he must believe that no one would pay two firsts (that was subject to check) or that he believes the market is so good that he will getter a better contract deal with an expanded list of teams, even if the patriots get to veto any contract. This position trusts the patriots to make a deal that is best for Cassel. What if the patriots wait a couple of months to get more information on Brady, and then deal with the diminished list of bidders? Is Cassel really better off? What part of "this is a business" does he not understand?

  26. Fencer

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    Agreed. The "good faith intention to employ" is just a "good faith intention to give the full amount of the money to", not a "good faith intention to keep on one's own roster."
  27. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He'd have been a complete idiot to have done that. I get the impression that Cassel is not a complete idiot.

    This is either a red herring being tossed out by you, or you completely misunderstand the mechanics of the situation.
  28. Pat_the_Patriot

    Pat_the_Patriot Rookie

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    ... OR, it's that someone placed an offer at more than $14M GUAR. in front of him.... and he took the opportunity to be set for life... why wouldn't he sign it?
  29. Pat_the_Patriot

    Pat_the_Patriot Rookie

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    Well... technically, yes... but he still controls where he goes... assuming that folks wouldn't trade for a one year deal, he would have to agree to the long term contract as part of the deal... so he still has say on where he ends up, no?
  30. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Previous posts indicate that the 'good faith' aspect is already satisfied, and with the comment above, it appears we can trade him as soon as is allowed without worrying about any league hang-ups.
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