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Can our offense be better than last years?


When the offense scores more points (turnovers notwithstanding of course) it did its job better.
Winning the SB isn't having the best offense, its having the best team.

At the same time, scoring 14, 21 (7 in garbage time) and 13 points after historically great offensive regular seasons indicates a failing somewhere in the circuitry.
Being excited about Amendola's ability is reasonable. Expecting him to be better than Welker was here is blind hope.

No, it is hope. "Blind" hope would be expecting that Edelman makes that kind of leap. Aside from injuries, everything about Amendola's pre-Patriot resume bears strong resemblance to Wes' 2004-2006 seasons. From production to style, it all fit, and many fans were pointing this out over a year ago. All camp reports only support this idea.

"Extremely talented" WRs go in the top half of round 1.
Lloyd produced in this offense. You have no idea what the rookies can do, and using 'they want it' kind of illustrates that.

Actually, "he didn't want it" is a remarkable apt description of Lloyd's play here. And there are plenty of excellent receivers who lasted beyond round one, let along in the top half of it.
 
And there are plenty of excellent receivers who lasted beyond round one, let along in the top half of it.

There's a guy that plays here in NO that has put up exactly one season with less than 1,000 yards.

Marques Colston - 252nd overall.

Not saying any of these guys will be that productive but we also shouldn't act like it's a definite that none of them will either. Unlikely, sure, not impossible.
 
If I answered that question a couple of months ago, I would have gone with a no. But I'm excited about what's been happening at camp so far. If Dobson, Thompkins, Boyce and Sudfield keep up their goodwork, keep building their rapport with Tom and stay healthy. Then I think we will have a better offense.

What is key for me, is the variety these kids can bring to our attack. All going well, they should certainly make the offense more dynamic. If Amendola stays healthy, Vereen builds on what he showed against the Texans and having a fit Gronk complete the season when he returns. Then yes our offense will be better in 2013.

For me, being better means having a damn good shot at winning a 4th SB in 2013. Having a more varied and unpredictable attack puts us in a position to win titles. And having a bit of luck on the injury front could make the key difference, especially at the business end of the season.

Excellent post...might we have another ;) that new dimension these young guys give us should make it alot tougher on the Defense. And early on our Rookie WR's will be unknown, so they will have to adjust to the league as it adjusts to them. Brady seems excited about his new toys I cannot remember him having this much talent on Offense in all the years he's been in the league.
 
True, but can you think of any examples where he was that effusive in his post-practice praise and was wildly inaccurate?

When it comes to the Patriots, he was raving about Brady after a practice in 2009 saying that he looked to be in 2007 form. We all know that Brady wasn't in 2007 form that year. It's not a big deal, really. He should just let these kids play a preseason game first before saying that they're going to help propel this offense to #1 in the NFL.
 
When it comes to the Patriots, he was raving about Brady after a practice in 2009 saying that he looked to be in 2007 form. We all know that Brady wasn't in 2007 form that year. It's not a big deal, really. He should just let these kids play a preseason game first before saying that they're going to help propel this offense to #1 in the NFL.

I think he should just report what he sees. :confused2:
 
Brady seems excited about his new toys I cannot remember him having this much talent on Offense in all the years he's been in the league.

He really does seem excited alright and it's not very often we get brady saying this about young rookies receivers...

“I’m proud of all of those young players for coming in — we’ve thrown a lot of stuff at them,” Brady told the media in Philadelphia on Tuesday. “I said the other day that it’s not like we’re backing off because that’s not the way our offense is. We’ve got to keep putting the pressure on everybody, whether it’s Aaron [Dobson] or Josh [Boyce] or KT [Kenbrell Thompkins] or Zach Sudfeld. Everyone who’s out there is expected to go in there and execute at a pretty high level.”

Read more at: Tom Brady Says He?s Proud of Aaron Dobson, Josh Boyce, Kenbrell Thompkins, Zach Sudfeld | New England Patriots | NESN.com

Could losing Welker, scumbag 81 and Gronks surgery issues this offseason, actually have been a blessing in disguise? Yes it's early days and the season hasn't started, but I'm beginning to think it might be a blessing. Because Brady has had to focus on developing new talent and intergrating them into his offense.

If Gronk and Wes were still out there, then these kids would barely be getting the reps. So losing the old reliable comfort blankets can only be a good thing in the long run. I have to say, this is the most excited I have been going into a season in many a long year. So cross the fingers and hope that these kids can stay healthy and keep going in the right direction.
 
Actually, "he didn't want it" is a remarkable apt description of Lloyd's play here.

This is one of the best statements to define a player I have read in here, as I said in a previous post Lloyd didn't want it and when he got it he wanted it out of his hands ASAP. When I read this it actually triggered me to go back and look at Lloyd's stats; looking at them you cannot help but think what if you had another player catch the same 74 balls in the same position how many more yards would they had gained then Lloyd’s 911? Putting that in perspective Lloyd was 28th in the NFL in receiving yards overall and 116th in the NFL with just 192 yards occurring after the catch.
 
No, it is hope. "Blind" hope would be expecting that Edelman makes that kind of leap. Aside from injuries, everything about Amendola's pre-Patriot resume bears strong resemblance to Wes' 2004-2006 seasons. From production to style, it all fit, and many fans were pointing this out over a year ago. All camp reports only support this idea.

No, it's really not at all.

SD had no idea who he was and used him as a return man.

Miami was just completely inept, and fed him the ball as much as they could (he stayed healthy), but the rest of the team was just that bad.

The Rams knew Amendola was good, fed him the ball, and he just couldn't stay healthy when given a real workload. Amendola has never approached the workload Welker has had every year for half a decade for us. Even with a significantly lighter workload he hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Maybe talentwise Amendola will surprise everyone and really be able to match Welkers Patriots HOF type ability... he still has yet to show he can maintain that level of productivity and expecting him to not only stay healthy but do more is just blind hope.
 
No, it's really not at all.

SD had no idea who he was and used him as a return man.

Miami was just completely inept, and fed him the ball as much as they could (he stayed healthy), but the rest of the team was just that bad.

The Rams knew Amendola was good, fed him the ball, and he just couldn't stay healthy when given a real workload. Amendola has never approached the workload Welker has had every year for half a decade for us. Even with a significantly lighter workload he hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Maybe talentwise Amendola will surprise everyone and really be able to match Welkers Patriots HOF type ability... he still has yet to show he can maintain that level of productivity and expecting him to not only stay healthy but do more is just blind hope.

When you’re a wide receiver like Welker or Amendola and you make the majority of your receptions either underneath or over the middle you have to rely heavily on the quarterback to place the ball in an area that allows you to be able to protect yourself or at least not hang you out to dry. Brady is very good at that overall, easily the best in the league; there is a noticeable difference in games where Brady is playing from behind or against a tough defense where he is more desperate for points and without the time to do it properly, an example would be against Seattle when Welker got lit up several times. The occasional unprotected situation that Brady put Welker in was the norm for the positions Bradford and others put Amendola in, playing with Brady I do not have nearly the concerns about health for Amendola as I would elsewhere; I do however believe Welker will have injury issues this year, nobody hangs their wide receivers out to dry over the last decade and a half more than Manning (Collie, Clark, Gonzalez, Stokely have all had head/ neck injuries).

This reminds me - Ian can we create a smiley of a head falling off it's neck and label it :manning: :lol2:
 
At the same time, scoring 14, 21 (7 in garbage time) and 13 points after historically great offensive regular seasons indicates a failing somewhere in the circuitry.
So the answer is to score less points?


No, it is hope. "Blind" hope would be expecting that Edelman makes that kind of leap. Aside from injuries, everything about Amendola's pre-Patriot resume bears strong resemblance to Wes' 2004-2006 seasons. From production to style, it all fit, and many fans were pointing this out over a year ago. All camp reports only support this idea.
Amendola 4 years 196 receptions 1726 yards 8.8/ catch 7 TDs
Welker 4 years 449 receptions 5119 yards 11.4/catch 26 TDs

Of course it is blind hope.

Actually, "he didn't want it" is a remarkable apt description of Lloyd's play here. And there are plenty of excellent receivers who lasted beyond round one, let along in the top half of it.
OK, Brandon Lloyd didn't want to win. Too bad he wasn't a fan who put their heart and soul into the team.:rolleyes:
Yes there are good receivers after the first half of round 1, but 'extremely talented' ones do not.
Are you really telling me these 3 rookies are among say the 20 most talented WRs in the NFL?
Wouldn't the bar for EXTEMELY talented be somewhere around there?
 
Amendola 4 years 196 receptions 1726 yards 8.8/ catch 7 TDs
Welker 4 years 449 receptions 5119 yards 11.4/catch 26 TDs

Of course it is blind hope.

Hopefully it is blind, so it doesn't see these numbers :fear:
 
When you’re a wide receiver like Welker or Amendola and you make the majority of your receptions either underneath or over the middle you have to rely heavily on the quarterback to place the ball in an area that allows you to be able to protect yourself or at least not hang you out to dry. Brady is very good at that overall, easily the best in the league; there is a noticeable difference in games where Brady is playing from behind or against a tough defense where he is more desperate for points and without the time to do it properly, an example would be against Seattle when Welker got lit up several times. The occasional unprotected situation that Brady put Welker in was the norm for the positions Bradford and others put Amendola in, playing with Brady I do not have nearly the concerns about health for Amendola as I would elsewhere; I do however believe Welker will have injury issues this year, nobody hangs their wide receivers out to dry over the last decade and a half more than Manning (Collie, Clark, Gonzalez, Stokely have all had head/ neck injuries).

This reminds me - Ian can we create a smiley of a head falling off it's neck and label it :manning: :lol2:

Patriotsplanet actually has a Manning smiley:

peyton_1.gif
:)
 
Patriotsplanet actually has a Manning smiley:

peyton_1.gif
:)

:lol2: That is pretty funny; I admittedly lurk on that site from time to time but I never signed up. They have some knowledgeable members but their thread content is all bulked together, I prefer the way everything is broken down into specific topics in here; it just feels more organized and allows you to key in discussion you’d prefer to discuss.

Have you ever seen this article the onion published a few ago Peyton Manning's Head Falls Off | The Onion - America's Finest News Source ?
 
:lol2: That is pretty funny; I admittedly lurk on that site from time to time but I never signed up. They have some knowledgeable members but their thread content is all bulked together, I prefer the way everything is broken down into specific topics in here; it just feels more organized and allows you to key in discussion you’d prefer to discuss.

Have you ever seen this article the onion published a few ago Peyton Manning's Head Falls Off | The Onion - America's Finest News Source ?

I used to post a fair amount over on Patriotsplanet, which is why I remembered the smiley. It was a much more laid back setup than it is here. The mods decided to ruin the place there, though, and the place has never recovered from their needless interference and changes. It's sad, because it was a great site for a while.

And, no, I hadn't seen the Manning thing before.
 
Let me address your so called analyst or whatever the hell you just typed and broke down.
It was my opinion.

First off Brady, is throwing as good as he has in a long time during camp, and is still in his prime.
Brady is Brady. We won't be better than last year because of Brady. We already had him.



Secondly, Wes didn't become who he was UNTIL he came to New England. He wasn't like that with San Diego, nor Miami, and Danny Amendola has the same type of game Wes has but is more accomplished at this point in his career then Wes was coming into New England if you understand what I'm saying, so why couldn't he be better? Especially if you plug the same type of player that's a better version at a young age into the same system.
So out of all the players to have played in the NFL we are singling out the one guy who put up the greatest numbers ever out of someone who had yet to get much opportunity, and that is your expectation of the next guy?
Will you argue when we draft a QB in the 6th round in 3 years that he will be better than Brady because they came from the same place in the draft?


Thirdly, Yes they are extremely talented. Of course, I'm not talking about Calvin Johnson or Elite extremely talented but extremely talented in their own right with their own particular skillset. And you know that.
Then quantify.
There will be roughly 150 WRs talented enough to make NFL rosters.
I would assume 'extremely talented' would mean at least the top 10-15% right?
Are you saying these 3 are among the 15-25 most talented WRs in the NFL?
I think at this point we are pretty confident they are talented enough to belong in the 150 and I'd be shocked at anyone being convinced they have shown anything to put them above the midpoint yet.

Fourth, Julian Edelman does have a special skillset and can do IMO. My definition of special is different from yours. Why does special always have to relate to one of the elite or the word elite?
Special has its own definition. It would imply better than the norm at least, and probably near the top.
Edelman is a JAG. Yes he has strengths, but he is at best a mediocre WR.


The first three games that Julian played in last year he had 327 all-purpose yards and total offense combined, and two touchdowns.
He has 7,50 and 28 receiving yards. 2 rushing yards and 1 TD in the first 3 games last year. What are you talking about?



He also had 4 punt return touchdowns. The following Thanksgiving day, he scored two touchdowns against the Jets, and then a third touchdown for 56 yards in the same game.
We are talking about him as a WR not a punt returner.
He had a TD catch and a fumble recovery TD. He did not have 3.


Although he left the game with an injury shortly after that, he became the first player since the AFL-NFL merger with both a receiving touchdown and return touchdown in CONSECUTIVE games. That following week he left with an injury.. but like I said if he stays healthy then I think we have a special weapon, but that's just me...
What does any of that have to do with you saying he proved he can beat outside coverage?

And last but not least, how could adding a good veteran runningback who is only 30, and has had success as a third down change of pace runningback in this league and the experience spelling guys like LaDainain Tomlinson and Curtis Martin with success.. particularly because of his vision and shiftiness. How could adding that hurt our group, when it's one more person stronger that's not a scrub?
Leon Washington is not a good RB and would be worse than what we put out there last year, hence we would be getting worse at the spot.
Not sure what who played in front of him has to do with him being any good. 30 is ancient for a RB.

If I'm not mistaking we still have Stevan Ridley, who could be even better this year.. Shane Vereen, who could be even better this year, especially with a bigger role, and Brandon Bolden who was hurt but is coming back from injury this year, ALONG with LeGarrette Blount who is a powerful runner and has had some success, being a 1,000 yard rusher in TB before Doug Martin came along....
Ridley is Ridley. It is yet to be seen if Vereen will be an improvement. Everyone else is JAG material.

So I think I answered the question in my own opinion.

As far as the why Woodhead was playing more than Vereen last year, you already know that they weren't too familiar with Vereen last year and was still trying him out in different spots, obviously Danny had seniority and certain plays already designed for him but of course you already knew that so you just answered your own question.....
So you think Bill Belichick takes 2 years to get familiar with a guy he drafted in the second round? And that seniority decides who plays, not ability? OK well I see why everything about the team is perfect to you.
 
So the answer is to score less points?

Amendola 4 years 196 receptions 1726 yards 8.8/ catch 7 TDs
Welker 4 years 449 receptions 5119 yards 11.4/catch 26 TDs

Of course it is blind hope.


OK, Brandon Lloyd didn't want to win. Too bad he wasn't a fan who put their heart and soul into the team.:rolleyes:
Yes there are good receivers after the first half of round 1, but 'extremely talented' ones do not.
Are you really telling me these 3 rookies are among say the 20 most talented WRs in the NFL?
Wouldn't the bar for EXTEMELY talented be somewhere around there

Man, this is hyperbole and straw man city!

So the answer is to score less points?

This is so far removed from my point that I honestly have no idea how to respond.

Amendola 4 years 196 receptions 1726 yards 8.8/ catch 7 TDs
Welker 4 years 449 receptions 5119 yards 11.4/catch 26 TDs

Including Wes' Patriot years is remarkably disingenuous.

OK, Brandon Lloyd didn't want to win. Too bad he wasn't a fan who put their heart and soul into the team.:rolleyes:

You didn't watch him play much, did you? It also completely misses what "he didn't want it" even means. Even one wants to win, but that isn't the same thing at all.

Are you really telling me these 3 rookies are among say the 20 most talented WRs in the NFL?

What the hell does this have to do with anything? Really bizarre question to ask.

For ****s and giggles, let's look at the leading receivers for a few teams in 2012 and where they were drafted.

Patriots - UDFA
Tampa - 2nd round (VJ)
Giants - UDFA
NO - 7th
GB - 2nd
Chi - 2nd
Miami - 4th
Balt - 2nd

Of course I'm cherry picking, but the fact of the matter is that half of the league was led by a non-first round pick. And several of the ones who did have a first rounder our front, it was latter first like Reggie Wayne and Dez Bryant.

FWIW, only 5 of the top 20 WRs in receiving last year were selected in the initial half of the first found.
 
It was my opinion.


Brady is Brady. We won't be better than last year because of Brady. We already had him.




So out of all the players to have played in the NFL we are singling out the one guy who put up the greatest numbers ever out of someone who had yet to get much opportunity, and that is your expectation of the next guy?
Will you argue when we draft a QB in the 6th round in 3 years that he will be better than Brady because they came from the same place in the draft?



Then quantify.
There will be roughly 150 WRs talented enough to make NFL rosters.
I would assume 'extremely talented' would mean at least the top 10-15% right?
Are you saying these 3 are among the 15-25 most talented WRs in the NFL?
I think at this point we are pretty confident they are talented enough to belong in the 150 and I'd be shocked at anyone being convinced they have shown anything to put them above the midpoint yet.


Special has its own definition. It would imply better than the norm at least, and probably near the top.
Edelman is a JAG. Yes he has strengths, but he is at best a mediocre WR.



He has 7,50 and 28 receiving yards. 2 rushing yards and 1 TD in the first 3 games last year. What are you talking about?




We are talking about him as a WR not a punt returner.
He had a TD catch and a fumble recovery TD. He did not have 3.



What does any of that have to do with you saying he proved he can beat outside coverage?


Leon Washington is not a good RB and would be worse than what we put out there last year, hence we would be getting worse at the spot.
Not sure what who played in front of him has to do with him being any good. 30 is ancient for a RB.


Ridley is Ridley. It is yet to be seen if Vereen will be an improvement. Everyone else is JAG material.


So you think Bill Belichick takes 2 years to get familiar with a guy he drafted in the second round? And that seniority decides who plays, not ability? OK well I see why everything about the team is perfect to you.

- Brady is Brady so you get my point

- Aaron Dobson and Kenbrell are extremely talented in their own right like I said, I didn't say among the 15-25 best. I would have typed it if I did. Everybody has some type of talent.

- Leon Washington has been a good third down running back in the NFL, not starter but I did say third down. Just ask running-backs like LT and Curtis Martin, who he has been able to help keep these guys fresh and move the chains. He is more then just an asset on special teams.

- Julian Edelman, well this is a piece from NFL.com . "Edelman is not Welker. He's not as durable or reliable, but Edelman also is far more explosive. He can play inside and out, and knows what Tom Brady looks for. In a two-game stretch last season, Edelman had a 56-yard receiving touchdown, a 68-yard punt return touchdown, a 47-yard run and a 49-yard punt return. (He also threw in a forced fumble on special teams and returned a fumbled kickoff for a score.)" Gregg Rosenthal

"Edelman is often compared to Welker, but longtime Patriot slot man Troy Brown is the better comparison. Brown played four seasons in New England before ever topping 250 receiving yards, making his money on special teams. Like Edelman, Brown was quicker than fast and had a knack for big plays. Brown didn't experience his breakout until his eighth season, but the stars are aligned for Edelman to make noise in Year 5. Offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels loves Edelman and knows he can use him in a variety of ways."

- Gregg Rosenthal

"The Patriots haven't needed Edelman before. They need him now, and he's shown the ability in his career to be a difference-maker. A sneaky season of more than 800 receiving yards could follow for Edelman."

- Gregg Rosenthal

- And Ridley his first full season starting finished in the top 10 last year, and gained 1,200 yards and 12 TD's so you made my other point about Ridley.

"Fortunately, while the aerial attack is a question mark right now, the New England backfield is stacked. Stevan Ridley rushed for over 1,000 yards last season, LeGarrette Blount is just a year removed from that mark, Shane Vereen has shown promise, and Washington has made a career as a consistent third-down back." - cbs sports
 
Man, this is hyperbole and straw man city!



This is so far removed from my point that I honestly have no idea how to respond.
You were responding to a statement that said an offenses job is to score points.



Including Wes' Patriot years is remarkably disingenuous.
What? Comparing him to the man the poster said he will be better than is disingenuous? That is the standard he has to rise to is it not?
You act as if its comparing Pop Warner to the NFL.



You didn't watch him play much, did you? It also completely misses what "he didn't want it" even means. Even one wants to win, but that isn't the same thing at all.
Let me put it this way. Your guess at Brandon Lloyd commitment, effort or heart is completely meaningless to me. You have 0% of the data needed to make that judgment.



What the hell does this have to do with anything? Really bizarre question to ask.
Then define 'extremely talented'. I define it roughly as among the 20 best.

For ****s and giggles, let's look at the leading receivers for a few teams in 2012 and where they were drafted.

Patriots - UDFA
Tampa - 2nd round (VJ)
Giants - UDFA
NO - 7th
GB - 2nd
Chi - 2nd
Miami - 4th
Balt - 2nd
Not sure what the point is there.

Of course I'm cherry picking, but the fact of the matter is that half of the league was led by a non-first round pick. And several of the ones who did have a first rounder our front, it was latter first like Reggie Wayne and Dez Bryant.
The disucssion wasn't about productivity. It was about calling a player EXCEPTIONALLY talented before he plays a snap.
Are you honestly saying the consensus in the NFL was that these guys have talent levels considered EXCEPTIONAL at the NFL level and they were drafted where they were? Thats silly.

FWIW, only 5 of the top 20 WRs in receiving last year were selected in the initial half of the first found.
Total strawman.
 
Better than last year? Depends on your definition of better.

Better numbers? Definitely not.

More versatile and harder to stop? Perhaps.
 
- Brady is Brady so you get my point
It refutes your point. We won't be better because of Brady, we will be the same because of him and better or worse for other reasons.

- Aaron Dobson and Kenbrell are extremely talented in their own right like I said, I didn't say among the 15-25 best. I would have typed it if I did. Everybody has some type of talent.
Some type of talent and EXTREMELY talented are different things. Saying they are extremely talented is saying we are ahead of the competition because of our talent due to them. Thats just not true.

- Leon Washington has been a good third down running back in the NFL, not starter but I did say third down. Just ask running-backs like LT and Curtis Martin, who he has been able to help keep these guys fresh and move the chains. He is more then just an asset on special teams.
No he has not. He has caught 23 passes in 3 years including just 4 last year. He averaged under 4 yard per carry in 2 of his 3 years in Seattle.
He has rushed for a combined 431 yards in 3 years.
You keep acting like the guys who played ahead of him make him good. BTW, he never backed up Tomlinson.

- Julian Edelman, well this is a piece from NFL.com . "Edelman is not Welker. He's not as durable or reliable, but Edelman also is far more explosive. He can play inside and out, and knows what Tom Brady looks for. In a two-game stretch last season, Edelman had a 56-yard receiving touchdown, a 68-yard punt return touchdown, a 47-yard run and a 49-yard punt return. (He also threw in a forced fumble on special teams and returned a fumbled kickoff for a score.)" Gregg Rosenthal
So? His resume as a WR is weak. Picking out a couple of plays and cheeriong them doesnt change that.



"Edelman is often compared to Welker, but longtime Patriot slot man Troy Brown is the better comparison. Brown played four seasons in New England before ever topping 250 receiving yards, making his money on special teams. Like Edelman, Brown was quicker than fast and had a knack for big plays. Brown didn't experience his breakout until his eighth season, but the stars are aligned for Edelman to make noise in Year 5. Offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels loves Edelman and knows he can use him in a variety of ways."

- Gregg Rosenthal

"The Patriots haven't needed Edelman before. They need him now, and he's shown the ability in his career to be a difference-maker. A sneaky season of more than 800 receiving yards could follow for Edelman."

- Gregg Rosenthal
So your argument is to search the internet looking for an obscure writer who pimps Edelman? I thought we were discussing facts.

- And Ridley his first full season starting finished in the top 10 last year, and gained 1,200 yards and 12 TD's so you made my other point about Ridley.
Ridley is good.


"Fortunately, while the aerial attack is a question mark right now, the New England backfield is stacked. Stevan Ridley rushed for over 1,000 yards last season, LeGarrette Blount is just a year removed from that mark, Shane Vereen has shown promise, and Washington has made a career as a consistent third-down back." - cbs sports

OK, lets move on. I'm not interested in having a discussion with a cheerleader.
 


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