Can our offense be better than last years?

[Ivan]

Last year at this time, with Brady, Welker, Gronk, the TE without a name, the Lloyd of our imagination (who was having a great camp), Vereen, Ridley, Bolden, and Woodhead, people were saying it would be better than the 2007 offense.

This year we think Amendola and Edelman, Gronk after 5 surgeries, Dobson and Boyce and Thompkins and Sudfeld will be better than that.

It's tough just to make the playoffs, though I think they will. More than anything, I want to see an offense that can stay on the field against playoff defenses. That's the only kind of 'better' I care about. Right now it's a little tough to project all these rookies marching down the field against the best the NFL can throw at them.

Mostly, I think the defense will be better and that will give the offense time to grow.

I agree with the bolded as the better test for the offense, points are king in terms of measurables but they could actually be a better offense slowing it down a little and pounding on teams more, especially in the play offs. And the more I think about it the more i believe we are going to see McDaniels use Vereen extensively in the passing game and he could end up between 50-70 receptions when all mis said and done.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Yes it can, and here are reasons why.

- Bill Belichick and Tom Brady are still the two best in the game and are calling the shots along with Josh McDaniels.

- The offensive line is stellar and Sebastian Vollmer is re-signed.

- Wes Welker dependability has been the most predictable thing last year. With Lloyd not giving ANYBODY a reason to respect his presence or our outside game last year, teams would flood the middle and beat us because they knew our offense. The quick no huddle runs and inside passes to Wes Welker. You CANNOT operate a superbowl offense like that. This year, we have more variety and versatility that can add a bigger arsenal with more blend and options in our attack. You don't just have guys who can run in slot now, but receivers that can do it all.

- Danny Amendola was looking good with Sam Bradford, who is a MUCH lesser QB then Tom Brady so just imagine if Danny stays healthy how he is going to look here. Chemistry between him and Tom has already started to develop. He is bigger, faster, stronger, quicker, more athletic and runs crisp routes and has great hands. He has also been proven to be clutch as well. He is younger than Wes Welker, and more accomplished and proven coming into NE then Wes Welker was coming into NE back in 2007. Not only that, but Amendola can also give us another dimension to his game in that he can go long for the deep ball. Wes Welker didn't give us that option. Simply put, Tom can make Amendola as superstar if everything goes as planned.

- The rookies maybe rookies, but they are extremely talented, diverse in their game, versatile and can be moved around at different positions on the offense. They have a high ceiling, and upside and have been doing a great job during camp. All in all, they don't even fall under the same category as rookie receivers in the past for NE. And I think that Brian Daboll is doing a wonderful job with this group like he did from 01 to 06, getting the most out of their abilities. I like Kenbrell and Aaron over Brandon Lloyd in a long shot. They seem to WANT IT more, and a lot of times, youth at the receiver position wins. Plus, with Gronk being out, they had time to develop chemistry with Tom and so far so great.

- With Julian Edelman coming back healthy, that was a weapon that we lost last year that was getting hot and really could have used him against BAL in the post season last year. He was coming into his own, and unfortunately went down. He also showed the ability to line up and beat coverage outside, not just inside as shown against the Jets more than once. One of those long balls went for a TD, I believe was 56 yards. As long as he stays on the field, this guy can be something special.

- Shane Vereen with a bigger role in the offense from the get go this year, will be a welcomed addition in both the run and passing game. And unlike Danny Woodhead or Kevin Faulk, this guy is a vertical threat in the passing game. He has that dynamic rare skillset that could set defenses a blaze against the right match ups.

- Zach Sudfeld has some speed, and hands and Daniel Fells is solid. Lets not forget that the world's best Tightend will eventually be back, and could be a lot sooner than many expect.

- Either LeGarrette Blount or Brandon Bolden back healthy will help the running game even more, as its already one of the game's elite, and Leon Washington will give us great field position. And that's along with Julian Edelman. Leon Washington can also be a third down specialist, and an effective one has he has done in the past for guys like Curtis Martin, LaDainain Tomlinson and Marshawn Lynch. He is still extremely quick, elusive and very shifty. Screens would be perfect for him.

So you see, we have some very interesting pieces that from a talent standpoint, far exceed the 2004 to 2006 teams offensively.

I mean come on guys ... Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Doug Gabriel? I know those guys were effective but from a raw talent stand point, and you look at what we have now. The fact that we have at least 3 receivers that can get deep and absolutely NONE last year alone speaks volumes.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: Can our offense be better than last years?

I like Kenbrell and Aaron over Brandon Lloyd in a long shot. They seem to WANT IT more, and a lot of times, youth at the receiver position wins.

This stood out to me because I think its a great point of what the biggest issue with Brandon Lloyd was, he didn't appear to want it and when he did get he wanted it out of his hands as quickly as possible.

Our offense during the Brady era know matter the offensive coordinator has always been about the receiver getting the ball in a way that allows him to do something with it after the catch. I cannot think of a WR outside of Moss (different type of animal all together) who substained any role in our offense over the years that didn't possess that characteristic.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes it can, and here are reasons why.

I will try to be respectful in responding to each of these, but damn, you make it sound like we will go 19-0 and score 900 points.

- Bill Belichick and Tom Brady are still the two best in the game and are calling the shots along with Josh McDaniels.

We had that last year, so that really isn't part of the better or worse discussion, although Brady being a year older means the chance of decline is there.

- The offensive line is stellar and Sebastian Vollmer is re-signed.

If Vollmer and Mankins stay healthy, the OL should be as good, maybe better. If not we could have worries.

- Wes Welker dependability has been the most predictable thing last year. With Lloyd not giving ANYBODY a reason to respect his presence or our outside game last year, teams would flood the middle and beat us because they knew our offense. The quick no huddle runs and inside passes to Wes Welker. You CANNOT operate a superbowl offense like that. This year, we have more variety and versatility that can add a bigger arsenal with more blend and options in our attack. You don't just have guys who can run in slot now, but receivers that can do it all.

We were a top 5 alltime scoring offense. Its totally backward to say the best part of the team that went to the SB the year before and the AFCCG last year is not QB quality.

- Danny Amendola was looking good with Sam Bradford, who is a MUCH lesser QB then Tom Brady so just imagine if Danny stays healthy how he is going to look here. Chemistry between him and Tom has already started to develop. He is bigger, faster, stronger, quicker, more athletic and runs crisp routes and has great hands. He has also been proven to be clutch as well. He is younger than Wes Welker, and more accomplished and proven coming into NE then Wes Welker was coming into NE back in 2007. Not only that, but Amendola can also give us another dimension to his game in that he can go long for the deep ball. Wes Welker didn't give us that option. Simply put, Tom can make Amendola as superstar if everything goes as planned.

Being excited about Amendola's ability is reasonable. Expecting him to be better than Welker was here is blind hope.

- The rookies maybe rookies, but they are extremely talented, diverse in their game, versatile and can be moved around at different positions on the offense. They have a high ceiling, and upside and have been doing a great job during camp. All in all, they don't even fall under the same category as rookie receivers in the past for NE. And I think that Brian Daboll is doing a wonderful job with this group like he did from 01 to 06, getting the most out of their abilities. I like Kenbrell and Aaron over Brandon Lloyd in a long shot. They seem to WANT IT more, and a lot of times, youth at the receiver position wins. Plus, with Gronk being out, they had time to develop chemistry with Tom and so far so great.

"Extremely talented" WRs go in the top half of round 1.
Lloyd produced in this offense. You have no idea what the rookies can do, and using 'they want it' kind of illustrates that.

- With Julian Edelman coming back healthy, that was a weapon that we lost last year that was getting hot and really could have used him against BAL in the post season last year. He was coming into his own, and unfortunately went down. He also showed the ability to line up and beat coverage outside, not just inside as shown against the Jets more than once. One of those long balls went for a TD, I believe was 56 yards. As long as he stays on the field, this guy can be something special.

If we are calling Edelman as a WR 'something special' the bar is definitely low. Calvin Johnson is 'something special'. Virtually every team in the league has at least 3 WRs who have shown more as an NFL WR than Edelman.
I'm not sure where he showed you the ability to line up and beat outside coverage. He caught 12 passes all season, and a total of 18 in 3 years that were thrown beyond the los. The one you mention is his only catch on a 20+ yard pass in his career. He has caught 9 passes in his entire career more than 10 yards downfield.
As far as getting hot before he was hurt, he was on a tear of 11 catches in 6 games.
Not sure what he showed more than once vs the Jets as he had 3 other catches for 2,5 and 8 yards.
If Edelman is the 'special player' that will be a key to our offense, we are not improving.

- Shane Vereen with a bigger role in the offense from the get go this year, will be a welcomed addition in both the run and passing game. And unlike Danny Woodhead or Kevin Faulk, this guy is a vertical threat in the passing game. He has that dynamic rare skillset that could set defenses a blaze against the right match ups.

I like Vereen, but the question is if he is such an upgrade over Woodhead, why was Woodhead playing instead of him last year

- Zach Sudfeld has some speed, and hands and Daniel Fells is solid. Lets not forget that the world's best Tightend will eventually be back, and could be a lot sooner than many expect.

Not sure I see a lot of hope of TE being better than last year outside of hoping we have more Gronk.

- Either LeGarrette Blount or Brandon Bolden back healthy will help the running game even more, as its already one of the game's elite, and Leon Washington will give us great field position. And that's along with Julian Edelman. Leon Washington can also be a third down specialist, and an effective one has he has done in the past for guys like Curtis Martin, LaDainain Tomlinson and Marshawn Lynch. He is still extremely quick, elusive and very shifty. Screens would be perfect for him.

If we are relying on Leon Washington the RB position will be worse than last year.

So you see, we have some very interesting pieces that from a talent standpoint, far exceed the 2004 to 2006 teams offensively.

Wasn't the question will we be better than last year?

I mean come on guys ... Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Doug Gabriel? I know those guys were effective but from a raw talent stand point, and you look at what we have now. The fact that we have at least 3 receivers that can get deep and absolutely NONE last year alone speaks volumes.

Not sure where you see 'at least 3 receivers that can get deep'?
I think you are overly optimistic about the talent level of these guys that is not remarkable compared to what every other team has.

 

[JoeSixPat]

For those obsessesed with stats relative to quantity (individual players with lots of catches and yards) this will not be a better season than last

For those interested in quality stats - catches made when a catch simply MUST be made - and an ability to stretch the field to open things up for that "must make" catch - this may very well be a better season

The quantity stats win individual awards - but the quality stats win championships

Look back at the 2003 offense and you may be surprised by how "bad" that offense was in terms of individual stats - but they made the important catches when they counted most

 

[Ring 6]

For those obsessesed with stats relative to quantity (individual players with lots of catches and yards) this will not be a better season than last

For those interested in quality stats - catches made when a catch simply MUST be made - and an ability to stretch the field to open things up for that "must make" catch - this may very well be a better season

The quantity stats win individual awards - but the quality stats win championships

Look back at the 2003 offense and you may be surprised by how "bad" that offense was in terms of individual stats - but they made the important catches when they counted most

Offensively, scoring points and not turning the ball over wins games, and championships.

 

[patsfan-1982]

the Oline would need to have a amazing season at lest one of the rookie WR's would need to be a star day one. Gronk would need to play a full 16 and the defense and ST would need to be in the top 5 at getting turn overs and punt and kick returns,


they scored 557 points last year just under 35 per game IMO even if Welker was re-signed and hernandez did not go on a killing spree they was not getting 35 per. I mean anything is possible but NO

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

I will try to be respectful in responding to each of these, but damn, you make it sound like we will go 19-0 and score 900 points.


We had that last year, so that really isn't part of the better or worse discussion, although Brady being a year older means the chance of decline is there.


If Vollmer and Mankins stay healthy, the OL should be as good, maybe better. If not we could have worries.


We were a top 5 alltime scoring offense. Its totally backward to say the best part of the team that went to the SB the year before and the AFCCG last year is not QB quality.


Being excited about Amendola's ability is reasonable. Expecting him to be better than Welker was here is blind hope.


"Extremely talented" WRs go in the top half of round 1.
Lloyd produced in this offense. You have no idea what the rookies can do, and using 'they want it' kind of illustrates that.


If we are calling Edelman as a WR 'something special' the bar is definitely low. Calvin Johnson is 'something special'. Virtually every team in the league has at least 3 WRs who have shown more as an NFL WR than Edelman.
I'm not sure where he showed you the ability to line up and beat outside coverage. He caught 12 passes all season, and a total of 18 in 3 years that were thrown beyond the los. The one you mention is his only catch on a 20+ yard pass in his career. He has caught 9 passes in his entire career more than 10 yards downfield.
As far as getting hot before he was hurt, he was on a tear of 11 catches in 6 games.
Not sure what he showed more than once vs the Jets as he had 3 other catches for 2,5 and 8 yards.
If Edelman is the 'special player' that will be a key to our offense, we are not improving.


I like Vereen, but the question is if he is such an upgrade over Woodhead, why was Woodhead playing instead of him last year


Not sure I see a lot of hope of TE being better than last year outside of hoping we have more Gronk.


If we are relying on Leon Washington the RB position will be worse than last year.


Wasn't the question will we be better than last year?


Not sure where you see 'at least 3 receivers that can get deep'?
I think you are overly optimistic about the talent level of these guys that is not remarkable compared to what every other team has.

Let me address your so called analyst or whatever the hell you just typed and broke down.

First off Brady, is throwing as good as he has in a long time during camp, and is still in his prime.

Secondly, Wes didn't become who he was UNTIL he came to New England. He wasn't like that with San Diego, nor Miami, and Danny Amendola has the same type of game Wes has but is more accomplished at this point in his career then Wes was coming into New England if you understand what I'm saying, so why couldn't he be better? Especially if you plug the same type of player that's a better version at a young age into the same system.

Thirdly, Yes they are extremely talented. Of course, I'm not talking about Calvin Johnson or Elite extremely talented but extremely talented in their own right with their own particular skillset. And you know that.

Fourth, Julian Edelman does have a special skillset and can do IMO. My definition of special is different from yours. Why does special always have to relate to one of the elite or the word elite? The first three games that Julian played in last year he had 327 all-purpose yards and total offense combined, and two touchdowns. He also had 4 punt return touchdowns. The following Thanksgiving day, he scored two touchdowns against the Jets, and then a third touchdown for 56 yards in the same game. Although he left the game with an injury shortly after that, he became the first player since the AFL-NFL merger with both a receiving touchdown and return touchdown in CONSECUTIVE games. That following week he left with an injury.. but like I said if he stays healthy then I think we have a special weapon, but that's just me...

And last but not least, how could adding a good veteran runningback who is only 30, and has had success as a third down change of pace runningback in this league and the experience spelling guys like LaDainain Tomlinson and Curtis Martin with success.. particularly because of his vision and shiftiness. How could adding that hurt our group, when it's one more person stronger that's not a scrub?

If I'm not mistaking we still have Stevan Ridley, who could be even better this year.. Shane Vereen, who could be even better this year, especially with a bigger role, and Brandon Bolden who was hurt but is coming back from injury this year, ALONG with LeGarrette Blount who is a powerful runner and has had some success, being a 1,000 yard rusher in TB before Doug Martin came along....

So I think I answered the question in my own opinion.

As far as the why Woodhead was playing more than Vereen last year, you already know that they weren't too familiar with Vereen last year and was still trying him out in different spots, obviously Danny had seniority and certain plays already designed for him but of course you already knew that so you just answered your own question.....

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

The only way it could possibly be better is if the top producing players stay healthy.

Presuming they do, here are 2012's totals that would need to be produced:

[U][B]Rushing[/B][/U]	
Rush	Yds	Avg	TD

Stevan Ridley
290	1263	4.4	12
Danny Woodhead
76	301	4.0	4
Brandon Bolden
56	274	4.9	2
Shane Vereen
62	251	4.0	3

Along the ground ..... I see no reason why this years team can't produce similar numbers. Same players are back less Woody .... but Vereen seems poised to improve upon Woody's numbers ...... and I gotta believe the OL will be, at least as productive, if not more.

[B][U]Receiving[/U][/B]
Rec	Yds	Avg	TD

Wes Welker
118	1354	11.5	6
Brandon Lloyd
74	911	12.3	4
Rob Gronkowski
55	790	14.4	11
Aaron Hernandez
51	483	9.5	5
Danny Woodhead
40	446	11.2	3
Julian Edelman
21	235	11.2	3
Deion Branch
16	145	9.1	0
Shane Vereen
8	149	18.6	1
Stevan Ridley
6	51	8.5	0
Michael Hoomanawanui
5	109	21.8	0

On the passing front, Gronk alone could surpass Gronk and Hernandez 1273 yards from last year. Can he do it? Well, he did so in 2011.

Vereen seems poised to improve upon Woody's receiving numbers.

Looking at the bottom of the WR production chart ..... some combo of #3 and #4 needs to produce the equivalent of Edelman and Branch's 380 yards. I don't think that's too challenging.

Can some combo of Dobson, Boyce and Thompkins surpass Lloyd's 911 yards of production? I can easily see happening.

The real challenge in the passing game is ..... can DA replace WW's 1350 yards? it remains to be seen but it's certainly looking as though DA may end up being a stud in this offense. So, you never know.

 

[Brady6]

If Vollmer and Mankins stay healthy, the OL should be as good, maybe better. If not we could have worries.

This an excellent point, one of the most overlooked loses of the offseason was Donald Thomas. His price tag was obviously unreasonable for a depth role so it understandable that we let him walk.

If we are calling Edelman as a WR 'something special' the bar is definitely low. Calvin Johnson is 'something special'. Virtually every team in the league has at least 3 WRs who have shown more as an NFL WR than Edelman.
I'm not sure where he showed you the ability to line up and beat outside coverage. He caught 12 passes all season, and a total of 18 in 3 years that were thrown beyond the los. The one you mention is his only catch on a 20+ yard pass in his career. He has caught 9 passes in his entire career more than 10 yards downfield.
As far as getting hot before he was hurt, he was on a tear of 11 catches in 6 games.
Not sure what he showed more than once vs the Jets as he had 3 other catches for 2,5 and 8 yards.
If Edelman is the 'special player' that will be a key to our offense, we are not improving.

I don't understand where this fascination with Edelman comes from, I'd get it if this was entering his 2nd season after the 35+ catch rookie year; now though it just seems unmerited. In the last 2 seasons with all the injuries and missteps with veteran wide receivers I'd have to believe that if Edelman was this "special" player we'd of implemented him into our offense, rather than having him play DB.

I like Vereen, but the question is if he is such an upgrade over Woodhead, why was Woodhead playing instead of him last year

I think it will be a significant upgrade but much like Green Ellis had the respect of Belichick I believe Woodhead also did, and the younger RB had to earn their way on to the field. I understand the logic but I do think it has some drawbacks, an example being Vereen having an impact game against the Texans and then barely seeing the field against the Ravens.

Not sure I see a lot of hope of TE being better than last year outside of hoping we have more Gronk.

It's actually a reasonable hope Andy when you consider after week one Gronkowski and Hernandez didn't play a healthy game together, Fells was injured, Ballard was out for the year, and it appears we may have found a player in Sudfeld.

Not sure where you see 'at least 3 receivers that can get deep'?
I think you are overly optimistic about the talent level of these guys that is not remarkable compared to what every other team has.

Dobson, Boyce and Thompkins can get down field, I think the question is what they can do when they get there, I'm cautiously optimistic about Dobson and Boyce, Thompkins I'm curious if he is being overhyped because it would be a nice story of rehabilitation and resurrection especially after the whole Hernandez debocal.

 

[mgteich]

I agree about Thomas. When we discussed this issue earlier this year, everyone that we just need to plug in the next man up and possibly add a free agent.

So, here we are with a veteran who we have cut and brought back, and some Practice Squad worthy kids.

Apparently our best replacement for Thomas would be Connolly, if Cannon can come back and start at RG.

This an excellent point, one of the most overlooked loses of the offseason was Donald Thomas. His price tag was obviously unreasonable for a depth role so it understandable that we let him walk.

 

[Brady6]

Apparently our best replacement for Thomas would be Connolly, if Cannon can come back and start at RG.

I agree that would be the best case scenario, but I'm not sure if Cannon is getting the snaps on merit or out of necessity because of injuries.

 

[mgteich]

Cannon would have been getting the reps whether he is the starting RG or not. Connolly doesn't need any reps.

Belichick needs to find out if Cannon can play guard, and at what level. After all, even if Connolly starts, Cannon will likely be active and will replace Connolly or come in at RG if the Wendell is out.

So, I would expect us to have the 4 other starters, Connolly, Cannon and Svitek to be active.

If Cannon was an OT out of necessity last year, he will likely be a guard out of necessity this year.

The alternative is to recognize that we have 2-position hole at backup interior lineman.

I agree that would be the best case scenario, but I'm not sure if Cannon is getting the snaps on merit or out of necessity because of injuries.

 

[ATippett56]

Can our offense be better than last years?

Can the Buffalo Bills and New York Jets defense be any worse than last year?

 

[JoeSixPat]

Offensively, scoring points and not turning the ball over wins games, and championships.

If I told you this season we'd have the 12th rated offense in the league and that no player would catch more than 57 passes you'd probably not think that was the "best" offense.

That of course was the 2003 Super Bowl Championship Patriots

Of course, later we "improved" to the 7th rated offense, with our best WR exceeding 2003's best pass catcher.

That would be the exceptionally flawed offense of 2006

This is what the stat hounds cannot, and will not ever comprehend.

 

[TB12_laser designator]

If I answered that question a couple of months ago, I would have gone with a no. But I'm excited about what's been happening at camp so far. If Dobson, Thompkins, Boyce and Sudfield keep up their goodwork, keep building their rapport with Tom and stay healthy. Then I think we will have a better offense.

What is key for me, is the variety these kids can bring to our attack. All going well, they should certainly make the offense more dynamic. If Amendola stays healthy, Vereen builds on what he showed against the Texans and having a fit Gronk complete the season when he returns. Then yes our offense will be better in 2013.

For me, being better means having a damn good shot at winning a 4th SB in 2013. Having a more varied and unpredictable attack puts us in a position to win titles. And having a bit of luck on the injury front could make the key difference, especially at the business end of the season.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Î don't know if any of you caught mike mayock last night on nfln, but he said he was real impressed with the patriots offense after seeing them yesterday. He xpects them ro be the number 1 offense in the league.

 

[Kontradiction]

Î don't know if any of you caught mike mayock last night on nfln, but he said he was real impressed with the patriots offense after seeing them yesterday. He xpects them ro be the number 1 offense in the league.

I trust Mayock's analysis on players coming out of the draft, but he has a tendancy to go a bit overboard sometimes. This was one practice. The new guys haven't even so much as played one preseason game in this league yet.

 

[Ring 6]

If I told you this season we'd have the 12th rated offense in the league and that no player would catch more than 57 passes you'd probably not think that was the "best" offense.

That of course was the 2003 Super Bowl Championship Patriots

Of course, later we "improved" to the 7th rated offense, with our best WR exceeding 2003's best pass catcher.

That would be the exceptionally flawed offense of 2006

This is what the stat hounds cannot, and will not ever comprehend.

When the offense scores more points (turnovers notwithstanding of course) it did its job better.
Winning the SB isn't having the best offense, its having the best team.

Is a good offense and good defense better than a great offense and bad defense. Yes. But a great offense and good defense is better than both.

You can't take the results of the TEAM and conclude that the offense that scores more points was less effective because it didn't win a SB. With the 2003 defense we would have won 4 of the last 6 SBs.

 

[Oswlek]

I trust Mayock's analysis on players coming out of the draft, but he has a tendancy to go a bit overboard sometimes. This was one practice. The new guys haven't even so much as played one preseason game in this league yet.

True, but can you think of any examples where he was that effusive in his post-practice praise and was wildly inaccurate?