Camp Battles: Final

[ctpatsfan77]

So the final roster is:
1-2: QB Brady, Gutierrez
3-5: RB Maroney, Faulk, Morris <Evans>
6-9: WR Moss, Welker, CJackson, Gaffney <Washington>
10-11: TE Watson, DThomas
12-18: OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Hochstein
19-23: DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright
24-29: LB AThomas, Hobson, Mayo, Vrabel, Bruschi, Crable <Woods>
30-33: CB Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, Webster
34-37: S Harrison, JSanders, Meriweather, TWilliams
38-45: ST Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, KWashington, Woods, Evans, Izzo, Slater
Gameday Inactives
46: QB O'Connell
47-48: OL Britt, Yates
49-50: DL LSmith, SThomas
51: LB Guyton
52: CB Richardson
53: TE Spach

FWIW, this is the roster (slightly amended) that I posted on 7/1. (* = primarily/only ST initially; italics would be gameday inactives on my list).

QB [3]: Brady, Gutierrez, O'Connell [Cassel traded]
RB [3]: Maroney, Morris, Faulk
FB [2]: Evans, Eckel*
WR [6]: Moss, Welker, Jackson, Gaffney, Washington, Slater*
TE [3]: Watson, D. Thomas, Spach
OL [9]: Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, O'Callaghan; Hochstein, Kaczur, Britt, Yates

DL [6]: Seymour, Wilfork, Warren; Green, L. Smith, Wright
LB [9]: A. Thomas, Bruschi, Hobson, Vrabel; Mayo, Crable, Woods, Alexander*, Ruud*
DB [9]: Harrison, Meriweather, Hobbs, Bryant; Sanders, Williams, Wheatley, Wilhite*, Ventrone*

ST [3]: Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton

I would not be opposed to seeing Guyton or Redd stealing a spot from someone else, nor would I mind seeing Seau come back to bump off Alexander.

 

[Metaphors]

FWIW, this is the roster (slightly amended) that I posted on 7/1.

Not too many differences, but you do bring up some things to watch for in the pre-season games:

Santonio vs Eckel
I originally didn't want Santonio as the #7 DL. I thought 6 would be enough. Other posters put up some good arguments and if the Pats needed to go 4-3 base for any amount of time, 7 DL would be needed. I'm kind of wishy-washy here and could see that spot go somewhere else.

Izzo vs Ruud
I would actually like to see someone take Izzo's spot and as I mentioned Ruud looks like a special teams ace in the making. This was more what I thought the Pats would do...not what I thought they should do.

Wilhite vs Richardson
Great camp battle here and definitely one to watch. Possible that both make the cut but they should play like they are competing for one spot.

Guyton vs Alexander
Not on the same page with you here. I can't see Alexander sticking unless he is a key member of special teams on the active 45 with some snaps in the LB rotation. If he doesn't have a role that gets him on the field, the spot is better served on a developmental player.

Webster vs Ventrone
Your roster seems a little light on CB, especially with everyone but Hobbs being new. You are one injury away from having Wilhite getting a lot of snaps on defense...which is pretty scary.

Nice to be quibbling over the back end of the secondary, developmental linebackers and special teams. That sound you hear is me knocking on wood for good health this season.

 

[RayClay]

Not too many differences, but you do bring up some things to watch for in the pre-season games:

Santonio vs Eckel
I originally didn't want Santonio as the #7 DL. I thought 6 would be enough. Other posters put up some good arguments and if the Pats needed to go 4-3 base for any amount of time, 7 DL would be needed. I'm kind of wishy-washy here and could see that spot go somewhere else.

Izzo vs Ruud
I would actually like to see someone take Izzo's spot and as I mentioned Ruud looks like a special teams ace in the making. This was more what I thought the Pats would do...not what I thought they should do.

Wilhite vs Richardson
Great camp battle here and definitely one to watch. Possible that both make the cut but they should play like they are competing for one spot.

Guyton vs Alexander
Not on the same page with you here. I can't see Alexander sticking unless he is a key member of special teams on the active 45 with some snaps in the LB rotation. If he doesn't have a role that gets him on the field, the spot is better served on a developmental player.

Webster vs Ventrone
Your roster seems a little light on CB, especially with everyone but Hobbs being new. You are one injury away from having Wilhite getting a lot of snaps on defense...which is pretty scary.

Nice to be quibbling over the back end of the secondary, developmental linebackers and special teams. That sound you hear is me knocking on wood for good health this season.

We wouldn't need a seventh DL to go 4-3, because one or two of our big linebackers would play end.

We have One NT and 6 ends. If we go 4-3 we'd have 6 tackles and one end (Jarvis).

3-4 linemen do not directly translate into 4-3 linemen. We could use one real good size backup NT. Barring that, we have plenty of 3-4 tackle/end hybrids without Santonio Thomas.

 

[Mike the Brit]

For those of you who missed Metaphors' great series, here's the full list of posts. I agree this should be a sticky until at least the final cuts.

Second that!

 

[Pats726]

Second that!

Actually you thirded it...I thought it would be a good idea to see what people projected in battles as to what WAS happening in camp.
It all looks good and clean..but there are missing things...their last minute and continuing moves..for I am sure a few will be added and then there is the whole PUP situation. The basic discussion of all had NONE on PUP...and I REALLY doubt that will be the case...they have had at least one player on PUP for awhile now...multiple players many years. NOT sure what the injury situation is...as usual..but that is the Pats way. Will be looking forward to teh mad dash for signings...would NOT be surprised if a few are not done on time..an dothers brought in for a quick look.

 

[signbabybrady]

Actually you thirded it...I thought it would be a good idea to see what people projected in battles as to what WAS happening in camp.
It all looks good and clean..but there are missing things...their last minute and continuing moves..for I am sure a few will be added and then there is the whole PUP situation. The basic discussion of all had NONE on PUP...and I REALLY doubt that will be the case...they have had at least one player on PUP for awhile now...multiple players many years. NOT sure what the injury situation is...as usual..but that is the Pats way. Will be looking forward to teh mad dash for signings...would NOT be surprised if a few are not done on time..an dothers brought in for a quick look.

Anyone know how a pupped player affects the 80 man camp roster?

I know they dont count to the 53 but I am not sure about the TC roster?

not sure how this would effect their decisions on who to pup, but I was just curious.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Actually you thirded it...

Well, I seconded PF37's seconding ...

 

[Metaphors]

We wouldn't need a seventh DL to go 4-3, because one or two of our big linebackers would play end.

We have One NT and 6 ends. If we go 4-3 we'd have 6 tackles and one end (Jarvis).

3-4 linemen do not directly translate into 4-3 linemen. We could use one real good size backup NT. Barring that, we have plenty of 3-4 tackle/end hybrids without Santonio Thomas.

While your statements are accurate in a general sense, they are a bit misleading. Pats 3-4 linemen do not directly translate into traditional 4-3 lineman. They absolutely do translate into the Pats 4-3 look (while still operating out of a 3-4 base).

Don't mean to poo-poo on your points since I'm inclined to agree with you (and said pretty much the same thing when I cut Santonio in the DL thread). I just heard back from folks that having a 7th DL is a good investment as injury protection. On my roster, there are 4 inactive spots for OL/DL backups. This has to do with the quality of the players as well as the difficulty finding big bodies on the street if disaster strikes.

That being said, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if the Pats enter the season with 6 DL. AD's ability to play a true end (not just rush LB at end) is useful as an insurance policy. Truth be told, I really like the rook LBs and would be plenty happy to use roster spots to keep as many as possible.

 

[Pats726]

Anyone know how a pupped player affects the 80 man camp roster?

I know they dont count to the 53 but I am not sure about the TC roster?

not sure how this would effect their decisions on who to pup, but I was just curious.

There is a TC PUP...where they ARE counted...and they can come off that at any point an dpractice..but they are also counted in with the 80. The SEASON PUP basically means that they are out about 7 games and are eligible to return in a 3 week window, or placed on IR or released. TC PUP and SEASON PUP are not the actual names...but for ease and quickness an easy way to explain. Pats1 I am sure has them memorized...as I should. Those on the actual season PUP are not counted; and teh Pats have gotten down to the limits after 3 PS games by placing players on that list before the final countdown.

 

[PatsFan37]

While your statements are accurate in a general sense, they are a bit misleading. Pats 3-4 linemen do not directly translate into traditional 4-3 lineman. They absolutely do translate into the Pats 4-3 look (while still operating out of a 3-4 base).

Don't mean to poo-poo on your points since I'm inclined to agree with you (and said pretty much the same thing when I cut Santonio in the DL thread). I just heard back from folks that having a 7th DL is a good investment as injury protection. On my roster, there are 4 inactive spots for OL/DL backups. This has to do with the quality of the players as well as the difficulty finding big bodies on the street if disaster strikes.

I'd add one more thought here, that rotation on the DL is critical to having an effective pass rush in the 4th qtr. More than other positions, those big guys need a breather. I believe the five active DL doesn't include a backup per se, that they're all part of the active rotation.

That being said, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if the Pats enter the season with 6 DL. AD's ability to play a true end (not just rush LB at end) is useful as an insurance policy. Truth be told, I really like the rook LBs and would be plenty happy to use roster spots to keep as many as possible.

I agree, that's the trade-off, but I think it's just as critical that they develop a widebody backup NT (green and wright don't have the size). So there's a camp battle across positions -- whether one of the rooks has better potential as a LB than SThomas has as a NT.

..........

 

[signbabybrady]

There is a TC PUP...where they ARE counted...and they can come off that at any point an dpractice..but they are also counted in with the 80. The SEASON PUP basically means that they are out about 7 games and are eligible to return in a 3 week window, or placed on IR or released. TC PUP and SEASON PUP are not the actual names...but for ease and quickness an easy way to explain. Pats1 I am sure has them memorized...as I should. Those on the actual season PUP are not counted; and teh Pats have gotten down to the limits after 3 PS games by placing players on that list before the final countdown.

I didn't think a player could be put on the pup list once training camp started???

otherwise why would we have put Richardson and Lua and guys like that on IR instead of pup. (aside from maybe the injuries were year long injuries but we have done this to enough guys for me to think they all were not greater than 8 week injuries)

 

[ctpatsfan77]

There is a TC PUP...where they ARE counted...and they can come off that at any point an dpractice..but they are also counted in with the 80. The SEASON PUP basically means that they are out about 7 games and are eligible to return in a 3 week window, or placed on IR or released. TC PUP and SEASON PUP are not the actual names...but for ease and quickness an easy way to explain. Pats1 I am sure has them memorized...as I should. Those on the actual season PUP are not counted; and teh Pats have gotten down to the limits after 3 PS games by placing players on that list before the final countdown.

A player who has practiced at any point during the preseason (or regular season) is ineligible for PUP.

 

[Pats726]

I didn't think a player could be put on the pup list once training camp started???

otherwise why would we have put Richardson and Lua and guys like that on IR instead of pup. (aside from maybe the injuries were year long injuries but we have done this to enough guys for me to think they all were not greater than 8 week injuries)

Those eligible to go on PUP have to be on the TC PUP and NOT practicing...ONCE a player hits the practice field..PUP is gone...I kind of thought that was understood by all...I guess not..

 

[Pats726]

A player who has practiced at any point during the preseason (or regular season) is ineligible for PUP.

And where did I say that WASN'T THE case?? I ASSUMED that people KNEW that fact.

 

[mgteich]

The Last Three - The Battle Of The Binkies

I agree with you approach, but not with your choices for the last 3 spots. So, in total I agree with 50 of your 53 choices. It makes sense that there would be great uncertainy on the last three spots. There always is. Much depends on injuries

TIGHT END (Spach vs. Stupar) POLLARD
I still think Pollard will beat out Spach.

SPECIAL TEAM ACE / LINEBACKER (Ruud, Redd, Guyton) ALEXANDER
You've made this the Royal Battle of the Binkies.
As has been the case for the past three years, I expect Alexander to win this spot.
I know you may not believe it, but all of the three would be safe on the Practice Squad.

UTILITY PLAYER / DEFENSIVE BACK (Wilhite, Richardson) WILHITE

Wilhite was pick in the 4th even though the team well understands the potential of Richardson. It is difficult for a rookie to be away from football for a year and then take away someone's spot. This is especially difficult for a marginal player competing for one of the last three roster spots.

Unless Wilhite is aweful, I don't see why he would make the squad as a developmental player, even he is expected to be on the inactive list all year.

Roster So Far...
1-2: QB Brady, Gutierrez
3-5: RB Maroney, Faulk, Morris <Evans>
6-9: WR Moss, Welker, CJackson, Gaffney <Washington>
10-11: TE Watson, DThomas
12-18: OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Hochstein
19-23: DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright
24-29: LB AThomas, Hobson, Mayo, Vrabel, Bruschi, Crable <Woods>
30-33: CB Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, Webster
34-37: S Harrison, JSanders, Meriweather, TWilliams
38-45: ST Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, KWashington, Woods, Evans, Izzo, Slater
Gameday Inactives
46: QB O'Connell
47-48: OL Britt, Yates
49: DL LSmith

Cut or Traded: Cassel, Pollard, Ross, Mruczkowski, SThomas, LSanders, Aiken, Alexander, Spann, Ventrone
Battling for Inactive Spots:
RB: Eckel, Green-Ellis
TE: Spach, Stupar
LB: Ruud, Redd, Guyton
CB: Richardson, Wilhite
DL: Fafita, KSmith

So we have 4 inactive spots remaining. In looking at the roster so far, there are 3 groups that are a little under-represented based on traditional roster numbers...TE (2), DL (6) and DB (8). Based on this, I'm going to drop Eckel and Green-Ellis from the conversation...the 4 RBs on the roster seem like enough and there are plenty of out-of-work candidates available in an emergency.

In an effort to avoid overthinking the process, I'm going to pick a single player from each of the non-RB groups.

Camp Battle
Spach vs Stupar

Have absolutely no insight on Stupar. Spach has some experience from last year as a 3rd TE and on special teams. Spach gets the spot. (You can't get this level of deep-thinking for free anywhere else)

Camp Battle
Ruud vs Redd vs Guyton

Ruud has ideal skills for a special teams ace. Good straight line speed, pursues well, solid hitter and wraps up. Not so sold on his ability as a LB. If Izzo or Woods go down, I like Ruud on the active 45. Don't like him as a developmental LB.

Haven't seen Redd play but coming from a small school he looks like a prime candidate for coaching up. Rare size and good speed for a 4-3 OLB.

Guyton is a stud from a measurables perspective. Really fast and hits with malice. Needs to show he can translate those physical skills consistently on the field, which he didn't do in college.

Redd has the best opportunity to get this spot since there aren't many 6'6" linebackers out there with 3-4 experience. Guyton will have to show a consistent motor and the ability to play inside and outside. I'll give the spot to Guyton based on the speed potential, but will be keeping an eye on Redd in the pre-season games.

Camp Battle
Richardson vs Wilhite

Richardson showed potential last year before going on IR. Not sure what the Pats see in Wilhite, since his ability didn't jump out at you at Auburn. Richardson gets the spot unless Wilhite shows up big time in pre-season.

Camp Battle
SThomas vs Fafita vs KSmith

I didn't think another lineman was needed, but these threads have convinced me otherwise. As a result, I've pulled Santonio off the scrap heap and put him back into contention. Fafita and Smith are JAGs but it seems like Santonio made an impression on the coaching staff. Santonio gets the call and should give appropriate depth on the d-line.

So the final roster is:
1-2: QB Brady, Gutierrez
3-5: RB Maroney, Faulk, Morris <Evans>
6-9: WR Moss, Welker, CJackson, Gaffney <Washington>
10-11: TE Watson, DThomas
12-18: OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Hochstein
19-23: DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright
24-29: LB AThomas, Hobson, Mayo, Vrabel, Bruschi, Crable <Woods>
30-33: CB Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, Webster
34-37: S Harrison, JSanders, Meriweather, TWilliams
38-45: ST Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, KWashington, Woods, Evans, Izzo, Slater
Gameday Inactives
46: QB O'Connell
47-48: OL Britt, Yates
49-50: DL LSmith, SThomas
51: LB Guyton
52: CB Richardson
53: TE Spach

Looks good to me and is pretty well aligned to the roster predictions in other threads. That says to me that camp and pre-season will be more about earning and defining roles...with only a few roster spots really on the line.

Now that Reiss is back, this exercise has run its course and he will get us to camp with his positional analysis. Please critique the roster above but also provide some insight into your reasoning if you want to change roles or roster spots.

 

[signbabybrady]

Those eligible to go on PUP have to be on the TC PUP and NOT practicing...ONCE a player hits the practice field..PUP is gone...I kind of thought that was understood by all...I guess not..

OK than....the way you worded it made it seem like anyone could go on the regular season pup even if they were not on the pup in TC and I knew that wasn't true.

I am not sure they designate the PUP list into TC and Regualr season pup lists. I think its one list and to be on it you have to placed on before the start of training camp and you can come off at any time during camp but if you are not off when the seaon starts you are on until the window opens mid season. My question was how does being on the list effect the 80 man TC roster.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: The Last Three - The Battle Of The Binkies

I agree with you approach, but not with your choices for the last 3 spots. So, in total I agree with 50 of your 53 choices. It makes sense that there would be great uncertainy on the last three spots. There always is. Much depends on injuries

TIGHT END (Spach vs. Stupar) POLLARD
I still think Pollard will beat out Spach.

SPECIAL TEAM ACE / LINEBACKER (Ruud, Redd, Guyton) ALEXANDER
You've made this the Royal Battle of the Binkies.
As has been the case for the past three years, I expect Alexander to win this spot.
I know you may not believe it, but all of the three would be safe on the Practice Squad.

UTILITY PLAYER / DEFENSIVE BACK (Wilhite, Richardson) WILHITE

Wilhite was pick in the 4th even though the team well understands the potential of Richardson. It is difficult for a rookie to be away from football for a year and then take away someone's spot. This is especially difficult for a marginal player competing for one of the last three roster spots.

Unless Wilhite is aweful, I don't see why he would make the squad as a developmental player, even he is expected to be on the inactive list all year.

My take on spots 46-53 was that they served 2 purposes: give "safety" depth at a position and allow for player development. With that in mind:

I doubt Pollard makes the team unless he gets a spot on the active 45. He has slowed down significantly, his hands have been questionable recently and he was never much of a blocker. If Watson or DThomas are not available, he becomes a veteran presence on the gameday 45. I chose Spach as a developmental TE (generally inactive) to fill out the TE depth chart.

The Guyton spot wasn't for special teams or even realistic linebacker depth. It was for developmental linebacker...almost certainly inactive for most games. I don't think it makes any sense to keep Alexander if he can't make the active 45 on special team or situational LB.

As for Wilhite vs Richardson, this is one of the real camp battles to watch. I think this battle will be won on the field and not based on draft status or prior experience. Total tossup in my mind.

I really didn't want to put a vet on the team if his spot on the depth chart (assuming good health, which will obviously change) doesn't get him on the field every week. It isn't good for the player, team chemistry or the Pats ability to develop future players.

 

[mgteich]

Alexander would be on the Active Roster since he is one our best spcial teamers.

 

[Metaphors]

Alexander would be on the Active Roster since he is one our best spcial teamers.

Then you put him in the wrong competition. Put him on the active 45 and take off one of the special teamers (Woods or Izzo being the obvious choices).

38-45: ST Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, KWashington, Woods, Evans, Izzo, Slater

 

[mgteich]

You have requested us to put one of your binkies on the squad at LB. I simply don't agree. I don't think any of them will make the squad.

Then you put him in the wrong competition. Put him on the active 45 and take off one of the special teamers (Woods or Izzo being the obvious choices).

38-45: ST Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, KWashington, Woods, Evans, Izzo, Slater