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Camp Battles: Final

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Metaphors, Jul 15, 2008.

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  1. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    Roster So Far...
    1-2: QB Brady, Gutierrez
    3-5: RB Maroney, Faulk, Morris <Evans>
    6-9: WR Moss, Welker, CJackson, Gaffney <Washington>
    10-11: TE Watson, DThomas
    12-18: OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Hochstein
    19-23: DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright
    24-29: LB AThomas, Hobson, Mayo, Vrabel, Bruschi, Crable <Woods>
    30-33: CB Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, Webster
    34-37: S Harrison, JSanders, Meriweather, TWilliams
    38-45: ST Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, KWashington, Woods, Evans, Izzo, Slater
    Gameday Inactives
    46: QB O'Connell
    47-48: OL Britt, Yates
    49: DL LSmith

    Cut or Traded: Cassel, Pollard, Ross, Mruczkowski, SThomas, LSanders, Aiken, Alexander, Spann, Ventrone
    Battling for Inactive Spots:
    RB: Eckel, Green-Ellis
    TE: Spach, Stupar
    LB: Ruud, Redd, Guyton
    CB: Richardson, Wilhite
    DL: Fafita, KSmith

    So we have 4 inactive spots remaining. In looking at the roster so far, there are 3 groups that are a little under-represented based on traditional roster numbers...TE (2), DL (6) and DB (8). Based on this, I'm going to drop Eckel and Green-Ellis from the conversation...the 4 RBs on the roster seem like enough and there are plenty of out-of-work candidates available in an emergency.

    In an effort to avoid overthinking the process, I'm going to pick a single player from each of the non-RB groups.

    Camp Battle
    Spach vs Stupar

    Have absolutely no insight on Stupar. Spach has some experience from last year as a 3rd TE and on special teams. Spach gets the spot. (You can't get this level of deep-thinking for free anywhere else)

    Camp Battle
    Ruud vs Redd vs Guyton

    Ruud has ideal skills for a special teams ace. Good straight line speed, pursues well, solid hitter and wraps up. Not so sold on his ability as a LB. If Izzo or Woods go down, I like Ruud on the active 45. Don't like him as a developmental LB.

    Haven't seen Redd play but coming from a small school he looks like a prime candidate for coaching up. Rare size and good speed for a 4-3 OLB.

    Guyton is a stud from a measurables perspective. Really fast and hits with malice. Needs to show he can translate those physical skills consistently on the field, which he didn't do in college.

    Redd has the best opportunity to get this spot since there aren't many 6'6" linebackers out there with 3-4 experience. Guyton will have to show a consistent motor and the ability to play inside and outside. I'll give the spot to Guyton based on the speed potential, but will be keeping an eye on Redd in the pre-season games.

    Camp Battle
    Richardson vs Wilhite

    Richardson showed potential last year before going on IR. Not sure what the Pats see in Wilhite, since his ability didn't jump out at you at Auburn. Richardson gets the spot unless Wilhite shows up big time in pre-season.

    Camp Battle
    SThomas vs Fafita vs KSmith

    I didn't think another lineman was needed, but these threads have convinced me otherwise. As a result, I've pulled Santonio off the scrap heap and put him back into contention. Fafita and Smith are JAGs but it seems like Santonio made an impression on the coaching staff. Santonio gets the call and should give appropriate depth on the d-line.

    So the final roster is:
    1-2: QB Brady, Gutierrez
    3-5: RB Maroney, Faulk, Morris <Evans>
    6-9: WR Moss, Welker, CJackson, Gaffney <Washington>
    10-11: TE Watson, DThomas
    12-18: OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Hochstein
    19-23: DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright
    24-29: LB AThomas, Hobson, Mayo, Vrabel, Bruschi, Crable <Woods>
    30-33: CB Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, Webster
    34-37: S Harrison, JSanders, Meriweather, TWilliams
    38-45: ST Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, KWashington, Woods, Evans, Izzo, Slater
    Gameday Inactives
    46: QB O'Connell
    47-48: OL Britt, Yates
    49-50: DL LSmith, SThomas
    51: LB Guyton
    52: CB Richardson
    53: TE Spach

    Looks good to me and is pretty well aligned to the roster predictions in other threads. That says to me that camp and pre-season will be more about earning and defining roles...with only a few roster spots really on the line.

    Now that Reiss is back, this exercise has run its course and he will get us to camp with his positional analysis. Please critique the roster above but also provide some insight into your reasoning if you want to change roles or roster spots.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  2. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    Very nice breakdown on all positions thanks for posting them.


    I agree TE and Dback are underrepresented but not sure 6 D-linemen for a 3 man line is under represented.

    and I would switch Santonio for Wilhite (who at this point would have the higher ceiling). I resisted putting Eckel there instead of Santonio because Wilhite made to much sense for me as DB had a huge overhaul and some of that compition shuold and will spill into the season so why axe someone so quickly.

    Eckel will be battling Evans for that spot as the FB and Eckels STs may help him there as I feel he is the better STer of the two (both are good STers though so that wont be enough). I think Eckel will find his way on this roster as he is a really good STer. Not sure who wont in his place but that will shake out in camp.

    I see Pollard making the team over Spach too, as we need some vet presence there in case Watson were to be hurt.



    and Hopefully Seau comes back even though that will add to what seems to be a too deep roster (by too deep I mean deeper than 53). I think more than any other year teams will really be looking for a gem from our scrap heap.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  3. psychoPat

    psychoPat Role Player PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Said this before, but don't mind repeating:
    Metaphors, this has been a tremendous portfolio of threads!

    Enjoyable ... thought-provoking.
    Your analysis and remarks have been quite penetrating
    ... and you've brought out the best in us responding posters.
  4. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Awesome job Metaphors - I've really enjoyed reading these threads.

    For the battle spots:


    Richardson v Wilhite
    I disagree about Richardson having the edge over Wilhite - the fact that they spent a 4th rounder on Wilhite shows me they have SOME expectation that he can come to camp and have a good chance of making the squad. Whichever player gets the spot will really have to earn it - but I trust in BB/Pioli's judgement of Wilhite's talent, even if he wasn't really on my own personal draft radar, but what does that mean :D

    Stupar v Spach:
    Stupar was a guy who I did have on the radar as a late round option at TE based on the scouting reports I'd read....Unfortunately, I don't remember what they said and I've never seen the guy play. So, likewise, I also give the edge to Spach simply b/c he's spent time on the team, and is noted as a solid blocker.


    Ruud v. Guyton v Redd:
    For the same logic as Wilhite v. Richardson, you have to assume BB/Pioli believe Ruud has the ability to compete for a job on this team [well, as much as any 6th round pick on this team could...], given the value they've assigned him by spending a pick on him. The rest is up to Ruud. Personally, I like Guyton and Redd more [based on what I've read about them], they seem like they have higher upside. I wish we could sneak all 3 on the PS (I'm banking on a Seau return), but what are the odds of that?
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  5. NEsince92

    NEsince92 Rookie

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    Great job Metaphors! Very well done!
  6. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    FWIW, I disagree with this; over the past year, the Pats seem to be rather pleased with Eckel. (They paid him more than the minimum to sit on the PS, and then they re-signed him for 2009 before the season ended. And don't forget the "guilt" factor, or the recommendation from BB's father, either: if BB has a back-of-the-roster binky, it's Eckel.)

    And, BTW, whatever happened to Ventrone? You didn't account for him here. . . .
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  7. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    I agree I think Eckel makes this team too. He was a special teams ace for us last year. But my opinion is biased as I am at the head of the Eckel fan club.
  8. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    If Eckel stays, someone must go. I don't see him providing necessary depth (RBs are easy to find) and I don't see him as developmental. If Eckel is BB's binky, that won't matter...but there is some good looking talent at the back end of this roster.

    As for Ventrone and Spann, that is my goof. They should have been on the cut/traded list since they didn't make the cut at safety or special teams.
  9. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Kudos for doing such a nice job on this, very thorough and detailed...
  10. satz

    satz Rookie

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    Eckel vs Evans is more infavour of evans as BB send evans in alot in blocking assignment when faulk needed a blow with maroney available.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  11. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    awesome series of posts by metaphors. Major THANKS to him.
  12. Brady'sButtBoy

    Brady'sButtBoy Rookie

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    You won't get a word from me about the Evans vs. Eckel Patsfan's Steel Cage Match (but wait, you just did:D) but I am here to say Slater makes the team.

    Legit 2 way skills are oh so rare, plus he's a bonafide return threat and ST wild man. Slater's like 5 positions rolled into one with NFL bloodlines to boot. If he gets cut I'm not watching a single game! :rolleyes:
  13. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    So, do we keep this post marked? ;)

    I'm saying Evans over Eckel just cuz he has a cooler name.

    No seriously, I'm rooting for Evans. He's gonna be a big deal in the blocking game this year. Mark these words.
  14. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    Evans or Eckle ... kinda like choosing between two Miller Lite or Bud Light? At the end of the day, you're still stuck with a crappy beer.

    As much as it makes me cringe to type, I'd have to go with Evans. Ugh. I really wish they would have upgraded RB4 ...

    Anyway, I think this could be the year Izzo gets a call from The Turk; I think there are too many younger LBs with upside who can play ST and might contribute more down the line.
  15. Grizzafted

    Grizzafted Rookie

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    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Alexander makes the team and Crable gets cut.
  16. BestQB

    BestQB Rookie

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    No way on this earth that BB has only 2 TEs on his opening day roster. Brett Favre would come out of retirement and Manning's consecutive game streak would be in jeopardy.

    To quote the General on the Capital One commercial, "What just happened?"
  17. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Limb's gonna get cut off, bro. Alex is at BEST, a JAG.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  18. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    A GREAT job of lining it all up...really good...MAYBE this should have a stickie through TC..so one can look at and compare what all said thought of with what occurs...ALL GREAT!!!
    As to the final roster...If Fifita can prove to be a backup NT..he will stay and be the 7th lineman. As to the OL...again it's the same 9 as the past 2 years..the FINE NINE!! What if Neal is on PUP?? Or Kaczur is suspended?? I do think there has to be some concern there. And what about the health of Big Ben?? I do think Spach MAY be the guy..with Stupor on the PSqd...joining possibly RB Green-Ellis. AT LB...I think the loser of the 3..the 2 have a chance for PSqd as well...and I would Say Redd..just on general principles. Alexander though may have some say as well. As for the last DB spot? Wilhite may have potential in teh long run..but if it's ST only, why not Ventrone??
    And I do think there will be some last minute moves that will shake it all up.
  19. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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  20. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    Yeah, that's very true. I also think there may be a signing of some kind tonight.
    Anyone else say "hrm" at the News Blitz for today? Or the fact that it has magically disappeared...?
  21. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    FWIW, this is the roster (slightly amended) that I posted on 7/1. (* = primarily/only ST initially; italics would be gameday inactives on my list).

    I would not be opposed to seeing Guyton or Redd stealing a spot from someone else, nor would I mind seeing Seau come back to bump off Alexander.
  22. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    Not too many differences, but you do bring up some things to watch for in the pre-season games:

    Santonio vs Eckel
    I originally didn't want Santonio as the #7 DL. I thought 6 would be enough. Other posters put up some good arguments and if the Pats needed to go 4-3 base for any amount of time, 7 DL would be needed. I'm kind of wishy-washy here and could see that spot go somewhere else.

    Izzo vs Ruud
    I would actually like to see someone take Izzo's spot and as I mentioned Ruud looks like a special teams ace in the making. This was more what I thought the Pats would do...not what I thought they should do.

    Wilhite vs Richardson
    Great camp battle here and definitely one to watch. Possible that both make the cut but they should play like they are competing for one spot.

    Guyton vs Alexander
    Not on the same page with you here. I can't see Alexander sticking unless he is a key member of special teams on the active 45 with some snaps in the LB rotation. If he doesn't have a role that gets him on the field, the spot is better served on a developmental player.

    Webster vs Ventrone
    Your roster seems a little light on CB, especially with everyone but Hobbs being new. You are one injury away from having Wilhite getting a lot of snaps on defense...which is pretty scary.

    Nice to be quibbling over the back end of the secondary, developmental linebackers and special teams. That sound you hear is me knocking on wood for good health this season.
  23. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    We wouldn't need a seventh DL to go 4-3, because one or two of our big linebackers would play end.

    We have One NT and 6 ends. If we go 4-3 we'd have 6 tackles and one end (Jarvis).

    3-4 linemen do not directly translate into 4-3 linemen. We could use one real good size backup NT. Barring that, we have plenty of 3-4 tackle/end hybrids without Santonio Thomas.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2008
  24. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Second that!
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2008
  25. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Actually you thirded it...I thought it would be a good idea to see what people projected in battles as to what WAS happening in camp.
    It all looks good and clean..but there are missing things...their last minute and continuing moves..for I am sure a few will be added and then there is the whole PUP situation. The basic discussion of all had NONE on PUP...and I REALLY doubt that will be the case...they have had at least one player on PUP for awhile now...multiple players many years. NOT sure what the injury situation is...as usual..but that is the Pats way. Will be looking forward to teh mad dash for signings...would NOT be surprised if a few are not done on time..an dothers brought in for a quick look.
  26. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    Anyone know how a pupped player affects the 80 man camp roster?

    I know they dont count to the 53 but I am not sure about the TC roster?

    not sure how this would effect their decisions on who to pup, but I was just curious.
  27. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, I seconded PF37's seconding ... :)
  28. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    While your statements are accurate in a general sense, they are a bit misleading. Pats 3-4 linemen do not directly translate into traditional 4-3 lineman. They absolutely do translate into the Pats 4-3 look (while still operating out of a 3-4 base).

    Don't mean to poo-poo on your points since I'm inclined to agree with you (and said pretty much the same thing when I cut Santonio in the DL thread). I just heard back from folks that having a 7th DL is a good investment as injury protection. On my roster, there are 4 inactive spots for OL/DL backups. This has to do with the quality of the players as well as the difficulty finding big bodies on the street if disaster strikes.

    That being said, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if the Pats enter the season with 6 DL. AD's ability to play a true end (not just rush LB at end) is useful as an insurance policy. Truth be told, I really like the rook LBs and would be plenty happy to use roster spots to keep as many as possible.
  29. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    There is a TC PUP...where they ARE counted...and they can come off that at any point an dpractice..but they are also counted in with the 80. The SEASON PUP basically means that they are out about 7 games and are eligible to return in a 3 week window, or placed on IR or released. TC PUP and SEASON PUP are not the actual names...but for ease and quickness an easy way to explain. Pats1 I am sure has them memorized...as I should. Those on the actual season PUP are not counted; and teh Pats have gotten down to the limits after 3 PS games by placing players on that list before the final countdown.
  30. PatsFan37

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    ..........
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