Caldwell or Gaffney - Who would you rather have?

[DaBruinz]

No. As DaBruinz said they let him walk. But what does it have to do with Gaffney? The Pats have not let Gaffney go this offseason so the point is moot and the comparison doesn't make sense.

The comparison makes perfect sense. Basically, what Pats1 was saying is that the Patriots do NOT make judgements based on 1 game or even 2 games. They make judgements based on what you have shown throughout.

 

[JackBauer]

I disagree. I think Caldwell is of the talent that he can be an average #2 WR. Same as Gaffney. So the stats he put up do not impress me. They are the same stats that I think any #2 WR could put up if they became the primary WR of a good offense.

He's be a fine #2 WR for the Texans or Browns or Titans or Niners or any other marginal NFL team that isn't playing in big time games.

However, on the NE Patriots, a team that has many big games a year, and several playoff games, I'd rather not have the guy who has proven on the biggest stage to be a non-gamer.

All things being equal, Gaffney and Caldwell both look about the same in camp, good but not great, and it's coming down to one of them, if you don't think that Caldwell's performance in the AFCC is going to factor in to the decision-making process, you are naive.

BB already has a proven track record of holding players accountable for one single play. There is the Gabriel fumble (yes, I know, there was probably more to it than that) and then there was the time he flat out cut a STer for essentially missing a tackle.

I also clearly recall an interview with him, I'm sure he's said it a ton, that a lot of time football comes down to 6-7 plays a game, and whether or not you win those single invidual plays can be the difference between winning and losing. You could have won the other 100 plays, but if you lose those other 7, you lose the game.

Just look at the Denver playoff game, classic example.

To that end, I think BB wants big time players who will win those plays. Caldwell made one of those plays in SD. He didn't make two of them in Indy. IMO, that factors into the decision-making process.

The fact of the matter is that is a totally fatuous method for evaluating players. I expect Bruschi to be cut soon, given that he was just as responsible for the second-half collapse against the Colts.

 

[DaBruinz]

Again great post....at least Gaffney HAD the one TD catch against Indy, while Reche was busy pooping his drawers.......and OUTPERFORMED him in the SD game as well.......No offense to Caldwell,.....he played way OVER his ability last year and did a good job for us during the regular season.....he just didn't CONSISTENTLY do enough for us (and really gagged when it counted most) during the clutch moments........I don't see Reche making this team at this point......one man's opinion

You mean like Brady was pooping his drawers also? I mean, how else can you explain him missing Evans wide open and throwing the interception to Jackson.

BTW, its pretty stupid to say that Caldwell didn't produce in clutch moments because without Caldwell's CLUTCH catch against SD, we don't even play the Colts.

Why is it that Caldwell is supposed to be CLUTCH every time, yet Gaffney, Brady, etc, get free passes and excuses made for them.

Sorry, but as others pointed out, Caldwell was drawing the top coverage while Gaffney was getting the #3 guy. Caldwell had done pretty well during the season without anyone opposite him other than Watson at TE. Yet, because of ONE GAME, all you yahoos want to cut Caldwell.

The Wiggins example is a PERFECT example of how the Patriots review things. ONE GAME will not be what a coaching decision is based on.

 

[tombonneau]

The fact of the matter is that is a totally fatuous method for evaluating players. I expect Bruschi to be cut soon, given that he was just as responsible for the second-half collapse against the Colts.

We'll see. But I think that Caldwell's failure on the big stage could be part of a bigger problem. Some guys just don't have that confidance/ability to perform when the stakes are highest.

I remember the game against Denver, big prime time game early in the season, he was a deer in the headlights in that game. Then he lays an egg in the AFCC. That could be part of a bigger problem.

And all these silly we may as well cut Bruschi/Brady are irrelevent. These are guys who have already proven themselves on the highest level. In Caldwell's biggest moments, he made one great play vs. SD, and then nothing.

If you wanted to make comparisions about say James Sanders blowing coverage that cost the game, or Patrick Pass say, oh I don't know, dropping a ball on the rug when he pulled his hammy, or some other marginal player who hasn't proven himself and f's up in a big game, that would be a relevant comparision.

Btw, I didn't see much of Pass after that fumble, did you ?

 

[Rob0729]

Again great post....at least Gaffney HAD the one TD catch against Indy, while Reche was busy pooping his drawers.......and OUTPERFORMED him in the SD game as well.......No offense to Caldwell,.....he played way OVER his ability last year and did a good job for us during the regular season.....he just didn't CONSISTENTLY do enough for us (and really gagged when it counted most) during the clutch moments........I don't see Reche making this team at this point......one man's opinion

Maybe when Maroney gets cut, he and Caldwell will try to find a team together. No one pooped their pants bigger in the AFC Championship game bigger than Laurence Maroney, no one. By your assessment, Maroney should be cut. There wasn't a more poop in your pants mistake in the AFC Championship game than Maroney screwing up a hand off. And he backed up that bonehead move by getting 13 yards on 8 carries.

If you are going to judge any Patriots based on that one performance, Maroney should definitely be cut and so should Bruschi and Vrabel with Brady being one step away from being pulled to be replaced with Cassel.

 

[tombonneau]

Maybe when Maroney gets cut, he and Caldwell will try to find a team together. No one pooped their pants bigger in the AFC Championship game bigger than Laurence Maroney, no one. By your assessment, Maroney should be cut. There wasn't a more poop in your pants mistake in the AFC Championship game than Maroney screwing up a hand off. And he backed up that bonehead move by getting 13 yards on 8 carries.

If you are going to judge any Patriots based on that one performance, Maroney should definitely be cut and so should Bruschi and Vrabel with Brady being one step away from being pulled to be replaced with Cassel.

The differene is all of those others are not realistically cutable and you know it. Caldwell is. And he can be replaced with a player of the same ability. The others cannot.

 

[DaBruinz]

I also clearly recall an interview with him, I'm sure he's said it a ton, that a lot of time football comes down to 6-7 plays a game, and whether or not you win those single invidual plays can be the difference between winning and losing. You could have won the other 100 plays, but if you lose those other 7, you lose the game.

BB was talking about special teams play in that interview, saying that you had to win those.

Just look at the Denver playoff game, classic example.

To that end, I think BB wants big time players who will win those plays. Caldwell made one of those plays in SD. He didn't make two of them in Indy. IMO, that factors into the decision-making process.

Only one of the 2 drops against Indy really meant anything. And its amazing how people forget that Caldwell was interferred with on another TD catch by Kelvin Hayden and had the correct call been made by the officials, you'd all be praising Caldwell for drawing the call.

Sorry, but BB doesn't just look at one or two plays. He looks at what the player brought the entire season. And yes, they'll factor in that Gaffney wasn't there the entire season, but they'll also look at the fact that Gaffney was non-existant for much of the Colts game, not getting open. Especially in the 2nd half when they needed it the most.

 

[Rob0729]

We'll see. But I think that Caldwell's failure on the big stage could be part of a bigger problem. Some guys just don't have that confidance/ability to perform when the stakes are highest.

I remember the game against Denver, big prime time game early in the season, he was a deer in the headlights in that game. Then he lays an egg in the AFCC. That could be part of a bigger problem.

And all these silly we may as well cut Bruschi/Brady are irrelevent. These are guys who have already proven themselves on the highest level. In Caldwell's biggest moments, he made one great play vs. SD, and then nothing.

If you wanted to make comparisions about say James Sanders blowing coverage that cost the game, or Patrick Pass say, oh I don't know, dropping a ball on the rug when he pulled his hammy, or some other marginal player who hasn't proven himself and f's up in a big game, that would be a relevant comparision.

Btw, I didn't see much of Pass after that fumble, did you ?

C'mon! Caldwell came up big against San Deigo. That game at the time was as big or bigger than the AFC Championship game. That was probably bigger to Caldwell because he was going back to San Deigo at the time and he had the pressure of trying to prove to the Chargers that they made a mistake not resigning him.

This Caldwell collapsing under pressure this is soooooooo bogus it isn't funny. The fact of the matter is in the playoffs every game has tons of pressure because if you lose, you are done. Not just the AFC Championship game. Plenty of players drop balls and easy passes. Randy Moss and Stallworth have more than their fair share of dropped balls too. No one collapsed under pressure like Maroney did in that game. Brady made what was the costliest mistake of the game and it was because he looked down his receiver which is something he rarely does.

I think the only game in the playoffs where the pressure is significantly higher than any other is the Super Bowl. And that is because you are in a fishbowl on display for a week and there is ten times the hype for that game than any other game in the playoffs.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that Caldwell collapsed under the pressure. I don't buy that Caldwell could handle the pressure in San Deigo and against the Jets and then fall apart against the Colts. I really don't buy how he is the only one who gets that wrap when you can point to at least a half dozen other players who arguably "choked" as much or more than he did.

 

[DaBruinz]

We'll see. But I think that Caldwell's failure on the big stage could be part of a bigger problem. Some guys just don't have that confidance/ability to perform when the stakes are highest.

I remember the game against Denver, big prime time game early in the season, he was a deer in the headlights in that game. Then he lays an egg in the AFCC. That could be part of a bigger problem.

Gee, that's funny. During the Denver game, Caldwell had 3 catches for 46 yards. That was with Champ Bailey covering him regularly. Are you sure you aren't referring to Doug Gabriel? Also, I can remember BRADY putting a ton of balls into the dirt and WAY over receivers heads in that game. You want to talk about deer in the headlights, look at Brady there.

And all these silly we may as well cut Bruschi/Brady are irrelevent. These are guys who have already proven themselves on the highest level. In Caldwell's biggest moments, he made one great play vs. SD, and then nothing.

You only claim they are irrelevent because they put a hole in your theory.

If you wanted to make comparisions about say James Sanders blowing coverage that cost the game, or Patrick Pass say, oh I don't know, dropping a ball on the rug when he pulled his hammy, or some other marginal player who hasn't proven himself and f's up in a big game, that would be a relevant comparision.

Btw, I didn't see much of Pass after that fumble, did you ?

That fumble was 2 seasons ago and Pass as injured for much of it. The Pats COULD have cut him during the off-season, but didn't. They could have bought him out, but didn't. Its highly unlikely the Pats would have spent 500K on a guy who they didn't want on the team.

 

[Kdo5]

A lot of you people on the Gaffney bandwagon are clueless. You have no proof that the guy is any better than good. You guys are just like a bunch of broken records.

Gaffney caught 10 passes vs the Jets and 12 vs the Chargers!

Wow thats two frigging games.

And then you have no other backup proof or evidence to lead anyone to believe Gaffney is any better than Caldwell. You'll bring up Reche's two drops and THAT IS IT. All of this is bashing Caldwell and not having any proof as to why Gaffney is even that good.

 

[Seymour93]

The comparison makes perfect sense. Basically, what Pats1 was saying is that the Patriots do NOT make judgements based on 1 game or even 2 games. They make judgements based on what you have shown throughout.

It doesn't make sense because they like what they saw from Gaffney. He's still here. This time way back in 2002, Jermaine Wiggins was with the Panthers.

Lawyer Milloy would object to your last sentence.

 

[Rob0729]

The differene is all of those others are not realistically cutable and you know it. Caldwell is. And he can be replaced with a player of the same ability. The others cannot.

No the other one was promoted to starting RB. So why aren't you arguing in threads that the Pats are crazy to go into the season with Maroney as their lead RB after his performance in the AFC Championship Game.

Tell me. Do you want the Pats to start Maroney? Or should they try to get Chris Brown and try to make him a starter over Maroney?

 

[satz]

That's the same coverage Gaffney will draw next season, so it's fine by me.

But I'm still just amazed at how many Pats fans praise the mediocrity of Caldwell's 2006 season. I guess I'm just not as impressed with an average WR collecting stats by default.

Totall wrong when watson went down and he was facing the #2 CB in regualr season he absolutely did nothing.so in your logic you are hopeing that 1)no wr or te will be injured so he will never face good corner 2)he will never play in rotation taking on #2 CB

I know cadwelll can face #1 corners and #2 corners and still catch like a #2 WR and also looking from watson and playoff that gaffney can produce only when a #3 CB /Nickel is playing against him .Even a #2 CB steps in [when watson went down] he will be totally ineffective.

satz

 

[DaBruinz]

It doesn't make sense because they like what they saw from Gaffney. He's still here. This time way back in 2002, Jermaine Wiggins was with the Panthers.

Lawyer Milloy would object to your last sentence.

No, Milloy wouldn't because his last year here, 2002, was his worst season as a pro. No Sacks. No ints. No forced fumbles. No fumbles recovered. Also, Milloy refused to renegotiate his contract when the Pats needed some 2.5 million in cap space to get under the cap because of the injuries that they had suffered in camp. They couldn't cut Ted Johnson or Willie McGinest because they had already re-negotiated their contracts. The only other person they could have cut was Ty Law and that wasn't happening.

And yes, it does make sense when you look at it as explained and not in the FINALITY you want it to be. It makes SENSE when you view it as the PROCESS and not the final decision.

 

[RayClay]

Gaffney was non-existent for many of the 11 games that he played in during the regular season. Why do you and others pretend like he was a factor then.

Gaffney had 2 good games the entire year. And they happened to be in the play-offs against the Jets and Chargers. But to discount Caldwell during that time is pretty ridiculous.

Caldwell definitely outplayed him in training camp, I'll give you that. Gaffney was invisible.

WOW!! That was a joke.

Only on this forum could a player with a whole pre season who is getting all the chance in the world to shine due to Gabriel getting cut be compared head to head with a player that didn't even exist, according to NFL.com game logs until October 22.

Of course this is a very simple offense that anyone can pick up in their spare time so Gaffney must be a dummy not to start getting 10 catch games until the playoffs.

And yes, I do believe Asante Samuel had a better regular season than Rashad Baker. Anybody want to argue?

 

[RayClay]

If my sarcasm is still a little too subtle for some, please let me know and I'll try to be more obvious.:bricks:

 

[lapatsfan]

Gaffney!!! I thought he came in and played very well on short notice, especially in the playoffs.

 

[pats1]

Gaffney!!! I thought he came in and played very well on short notice, especially in the playoffs.

So now we're punishing Caldwell for being a coveted free agent by the Pats who exceeded expectations?

Gaffney right now has a 15 vote lead over Caldwell.

You'd think everyone in here is a Red Sox fan, considering this man love for the flavor of the month.

(Wait...)

 

[RayClay]

So now we're punishing Caldwell for being a coveted free agent by the Pats who exceeded expectations?

Gaffney right now has a 15 vote lead over Caldwell.

You'd think everyone in here is a Red Sox fan, considering this man love for the flavor of the month.

(Wait...)

Good objective analysis here.

 

[DaBruinz]

WOW!! That was a joke.

Only on this forum could a player with a whole pre season who is getting all the chance in the world to shine due to Gabriel getting cut be compared head to head with a player that didn't even exist, according to NFL.com game logs until October 22.

Of course this is a very simple offense that anyone can pick up in their spare time so Gaffney must be a dummy not to start getting 10 catch games until the playoffs.

And yes, I do believe Asante Samuel had a better regular season than Rashad Baker. Anybody want to argue?

RayClay -
A few corrections. Gabriel wasn't cut until December 13th so to say that Caldwell was being given a chance to shine because Gabriel was gone is wrong.

Next, Gaffney was signed October 10th. So, there was approximately 11 games that Gaffney was active for prior to the play-offs. Yes, I DO give him some leeway (8 games - what it took Caldwell to find his groove).

How many catches did Gaffney get against the Colts? 3.

Comparing Rashad Baker, a safety, to Samuel, a starting corner is just stupid and has no relevance.