Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay

[Deus Irae]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

Vince Wilfork just signed a contract worth $8M per year. That was a huge contract for a huge contributor, a very limited market commodity, and a proven pro-bowl caliber player. This deal took years of negotiations. Additionally, Wilfork is now the highest paid nose tackle in the NFL.

Anyone who is mumbling anything about $8M per year for Bodden is absolutely insane, and any team that comes close to paying him that should be ostracized from the league. What exactly has Bodden done to make everyone believe he is an elite player? I would rate Bodden "good" to "very good" and nowhere near the player that people seem to think he is. I like the guy and I think he's a dependable player, but I see Butler eclipsing in 2011, if not 2010. Bodden is between a #1 and #2 corner. Patriots fans are just used to washed up scrubs playing corner and getting burned all game. Now a guy comes in who doesn't make us all throw up, and we want to pay him like he's Vince Wilfork. I am by no means an expert, but message boards are for fans that find it fun to play GM. In that case, I'll have my fun. So, I'd rate his value at around $4M.

I believe that some posters were claiming Bodden was a top shelf corner who is better than Asante Samuel. One person mentioned the notion of KC giving him $7 million per, for example, and others have also used the $7 million dollar number.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

By elite, do you mean Revis/Asomugha? Then no.
But you're right, he is "good" to "very good." Sorry but "good" to "very good" corners have a really high value in this league.

Statistically, Bodden was one of the top 15-20 corners in the league last year. He's the top CB remaining in free agency, he knows our system, and he was rock solid in the secondary last year. When was the last time we had a CB who was as solid overall? Asante $60M Samuel? I think Bodden is a better overall player than Samuel. Some people underrate Bodden on this board for the very reason you mention--"hell, anything would look good after Deltha O'Neal, Fernando Bryant, and a couple of mediocre rookies--therefore Bodden can't be that good because he had such easy acts to follow."

Sign the man and pay the man [if he even really wants to be a Patriot]

Even I agreed that he is one of the top 15-20 corners in the league (which I think is a very high rating), and that's based on his production in a "prove-it" contract year, that still doesn't mean he's worth close to $8M. I definitely don't think Bodden is better than Samuel, or even in the same class, but I agree that Samuel was overpaid.

It's hard to figure out how much some of these guys are actually making since the contracts are so backloaded. Again, the Wilfork deal is a good indicator, since it reflects the Patriots dollar-value on players and the Patriots run a pretty darn good salary cap. I know they are at different positions, but value is value. Can you really argue that Bodden's impact on that defense is in the same ballpark as Wilfork's? The Patriots have always paid their front three the big money since that is the bread-and-butter of the 3-4. The Patriots have won Super Bowls with Randall Gay, Tyrone Poole and Earthwind Moreland in the secondary. They really haven't won anything without elite linemen.

Meanwhile, cornerbacks are one of the most fragile positions in the league. If a guy loses a step, gets injured, or loses his confidence, he's back to being an average joe. How many cornerbacks sustain dominance for a number of years? With a more physical player, you pretty much know what you're getting. That's why I think the Patriots prefer to get CBs on the cheap, and other winning teams like the Colts and Steelers do the same.

But even assuming that he is #15, you have to look at the value. A guy like Samuel signed what was considered a mega-deal, and at the time he was considered the #1 free agent on the market, with lots of suitors. He got $10M (although again, a lot of it is back loaded). To spend $8M you would need a top-5 cornerback, or if you're really stretching it, a top-10. We're already under $8M, and that's really giving Bodden the benefit of the doubt here. Personally I think these estimates are way off in both Bodden's value, Bodden's rank, and the cornerback market. The fact that the Texans are the only other team interested in "the best available" cornerback certainly makes you wonder, especially if it's true that you say these types of players are limited and high in demand. Rumor has it that his value has plummeted to closer to $4.5M. That seems about right to me... and still a tad too high for the Patriots.

Bodden took a gamble by playing the market and turned down the Patriots' offer last season. He was unwilling to negotiate a deal during the season, or a long-term contract last offseason. Unfortunately for him, his market value is much lower than expected. I don't see why the Patriots should now overpay him. I really hope they sign him, but not for anywhere near "elite" money.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

If all it would take to sign Bodden is 5M per year and a 10M dollar bonus, I don't see why you don't give it to him. If the difference in asking money is only .5 to 1M, there is such a thing as being penny wise but pound foolish.

Big picture - Bodden knows our system, and runs it very well. Retaining him keeps the secondary stable and means that the Pats don't have to invest an early pick in a CB and hope that he doesn't bust.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

If all it would take to sign Bodden is 5M per year and a 10M dollar bonus, I don't see why you don't give it to him. If the difference in asking money is only .5 to 1M, there is such a thing as being penny wise but pound foolish.

Big picture - Bodden knows our system, and runs it very well. Retaining him keeps the secondary stable and means that the Pats don't have to invest an early pick in a CB and hope that he doesn't bust.

I understand the perspective, but I don't agree with this. The Patriots have a set value for how much they're willing to pay at the absolute limit. I think if they were willing to budge, because secretly they had been bluffing and willing to pay more, they would have done so before he left for Houston. The problem with paying an extra $1M- or a million dollars more than his value to the team- to Bodden is where does it stop? Then you begin to spend a little more here, and a little more there. Well, suppose you structure 10 contracts to players that you just want to sign, even if its just for $1M extra. That now becomes $10M in used cap space to prevent other signings. Now, I understand that sometimes there are players you can't let go, but is Bodden really one of them? I would prefer to overspend very infrequently, and save it for guys like Moss, Brady, Welker, Wilfork, etc. I just don't see how Bodden's history justifies reaching for him. If $1M is a dealbreaker in the Bodden deal, then $1M may very well be dealbreaker in another deal for a more important player, and now we might not have it because we gave it to Bodden.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

In a year when the cap is irrelevant, I'd think that the Pats would take advantage of this to sign guys to front loaded deals but I haven't really seen it. Has Kraft given BB a 'spending limit' that we are not aware of? Because as far as I know, the Pats are one of the most profitable franchises in the NFL and he shouldn't be hurting for money.

There's a big difference in shelling out 15M for a Peppers, not something I'd realistically expect the Pats to do, and shelling out an extra .5M or 1M to secure the Pats top cornerback last season. Is TBC really deserving of more money than Bodden in the Pats defensive system? Is it really worth it to save that .5M to 1M and create another hole on this team that will need to be addressed with an early draft pick?

Think about it. You say - we can't afford to spend 1M more per Bodden. But if you lose, him you are FORCED to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick on a corner. When you could have used that pick to draft a position of more need such as OLB, TE, DE, WR, RB etc. Allocation of draft resources is just as important as allocation of monetary resources, because those rookies are a huge part of team building.

Plugging your main holes in free agency, before the draft beings allows you to be the most flexible in players you select during the draft, since you're drafting the best possible player who fits your team, rather than just drafting for need.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

I understand the perspective, but I don't agree with this. The Patriots have a set value for how much they're willing to pay at the absolute limit. I think if they were willing to budge, because secretly they had been bluffing and willing to pay more, they would have done so before he left for Houston. The problem with paying an extra $1M- or a million dollars more than his value to the team- to Bodden is where does it stop? Then you begin to spend a little more here, and a little more there. Well, suppose you structure 10 contracts to players that you just want to sign, even if its just for $1M extra. That now becomes $10M in used cap space to prevent other signings. Now, I understand that sometimes there are players you can't let go, but is Bodden really one of them? I would prefer to overspend very infrequently, and save it for guys like Moss, Brady, Welker, Wilfork, etc. I just don't see how Bodden's history justifies reaching for him. If $1M is a dealbreaker in the Bodden deal, then $1M may very well be dealbreaker in another deal for a more important player, and now we might not have it because we gave it to Bodden.

I think the general thrust is that, if it turns out that the value that the Pats have assigned to Bodden is $5M per year or less, then a lot of people here will fundamentally disagree with that valuation. It wouldn't be a criticism of their unwillingness to go above a perceived value so much as it would be a criticism of the perceived value itself.

 

[Marqui]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

In a year when the cap is irrelevant, I'd think that the Pats would take advantage of this to sign guys to front loaded deals but I haven't really seen it. Has Kraft given BB a 'spending limit' that we are not aware of? Because as far as I know, the Pats are one of the most profitable franchises in the NFL and he shouldn't be hurting for money.

There's a big difference in shelling out 15M for a Peppers, not something I'd realistically expect the Pats to do, and shelling out an extra .5M or 1M to secure the Pats top cornerback last season. Is TBC really deserving of more money than Bodden in the Pats defensive system? Is it really worth it to save that .5M to 1M and create another hole on this team that will need to be addressed with an early draft pick?

Think about it. You say - we can't afford to spend 1M more per Bodden. But if you lose, him you are FORCED to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick on a corner. When you could have used that pick to draft a position of more need such as OLB, TE, DE, WR, RB etc. Allocation of draft resources is just as important as allocation of monetary resources, because those rookies are a huge part of team building.

Plugging your main holes in free agency, before the draft beings allows you to be the most flexible in players you select during the draft, since you're drafting the best possible player who fits your team, rather than just drafting for need.

Exactly. Letting Bodden go is more costly than resigning him. I think the Pats would be screwed in 2010 if Bodden leaves.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

Exactly. Letting Bodden go is more costly than resigning him. I think the Pats would be screwed in 2010 if Bodden leaves.

We might as well just mail it in now, then.

 

[BritPat]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

IMO he feels disrespected. he had an opportunity to sign a long term deal last year and he didn't. if we don't resign him it's not the end of the world. Lots of quality CB's is this draft

That's not true at all.

It was Bodden who asked for a one year 'prove it' deal in the hope of having a good year and making himself worth that one big final contract.

And he did prove it. Hopefully we're still in dialogue with his agent and are aware of the numbers on offer from the Texans.

 

[WelshPat]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

Statistically, Bodden was one of the top 15-20 corners in the league last year. He's the top CB remaining in free agency, he knows our system, and he was rock solid in the secondary last year. When was the last time we had a CB who was as solid overall? Asante $60M Samuel? I think Bodden is a better overall player than Samuel. Some people

Couldn't disagree more. Go back and watch highlights from 2005-2007. Almost every defense big play was made by the same guy. Samuel.

Samuel may give up a play now and again, but EVERY YEAR he is good for around 7 ints. Those turnovers are valuable.

Bodden is good, not great and Samuel was much better for this team.

Lets not forget that Bodden was simply awful for the Lions the season before last.

 

[PatsChamp88]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

The 28-year-old may have to settle for a contract similar to Jabari Greer's last offseason. The Saints signed Greer for $22 million over four years along with just over $10M guaranteed.

I wouldn't mind having him for that price the question is how much are the Texans willing to overpay...

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

I believe that some posters were claiming Bodden was a top shelf corner who is better than Asante Samuel. One person mentioned the notion of KC giving him $7 million per, for example, and others have also used the $7 million dollar number.

$7 million would have seemed silly a few months ago, but after Dunta Robinson got 6 years for $57 mill, I could see him getting that.

And Samuel freelances a bit too much for my liking. He definitely makes big plays, but good offenses don't seem to fear throwing at him too much and can often expose him with double moves. And I admit I'm still a bit bitter over a certain dropped INT in a certain big game a few years ago...

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

If all it would take to sign Bodden is 5M per year and a 10M dollar bonus, I don't see why you don't give it to him. If the difference in asking money is only .5 to 1M, there is such a thing as being penny wise but pound foolish.
Big picture - Bodden knows our system, and runs it very well. Retaining him keeps the secondary stable and means that the Pats don't have to invest an early pick in a CB and hope that he doesn't bust.

Same scenario as Jabar Gaffney. The hubris came back to bite BB in the *ss when garbage like Galloway, Lewis etc did not work out. No worries, it will happen once again.

Get used to Butler and Wilhite, with Wheatley as the 3rd CB.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

First, I think everyone's estimates are way too high. I don't think the Patriots would have ever considered paying him $8M per year. I don't think Bodden realistically believes he's worth more than $5-6M. This guy is a solid player, but nowhere near the superstar that people are pretending he is. His run in Detroit isn't helping his value either; he may be viewed as a guy who only performs well if the conditions are perfect. In addition, he isn't the type of big-time playmaker that deserves top pay. I hate to tell you guys this, but Patriot or not, there are probably 5-6 guys like this on free agent market most years.

Price said today that Bodden's value has dropped by a lot on the market. Based on what I've read following the situation, which includes Bodden's sudden desire to sign with Houston, here is my unfounded guess:

Patriots tried to extend Bodden for around $4M per year during the season; Bodden wanted to test the free agent waters.

Patriots upped their offer on Saturday (since there were some articles about them working to get a deal done, and because teams were frantically trying to find skilled players) to around $5M; Bodden thought he would get a higher bidder

The "free agent frenzy" died down and market values have settled, with Bodden now worth below what the Patriots offered on Saturday

Bodden would probably sign now if we just offered him the same contract as before ($5M), but the Patriots, seeing the market, have now lowered their offer to around $4-4.5M again

Bodden is pissed and will probably sign with the Texans for whatever their best offer is, since they are really the only player besides the Patriots

I hope I'm wrong, but it would make sense considering the timeline. Players who express interest to re-sign and actually higher a new agent to negotiate with their team, then suddenly say they can't wait to get a deal with another team (before even visiting), usually are upset about something. The scenario that the Patriots have lowered their offer based on a falling market value would explain this situation well. It appeared they were close, and now his value has gone down, and now they are far apart.

Man, this seems spot on. It's almost as if you are on the inside.lol Seriously, your analysis seems very fair and valid. I hope we keep him like most other fans, but I also feel like you're right in your assertion that he's not the superstar playmaker that some people are trying to make him out to be. However, he's still better than pretty much anyone on our roster right now. Butler will get there soon enough, but he isn't there yet.

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

Everyday Darius Butler is slowly turning into one of my favorite Patriots. His head seems to be in the right place and I'm excited to see what he has to bring next season.

 

[bucky]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

Statistically, Bodden was one of the top 15-20 corners in the league last year.

What statistics might those be?

 

[PatsBoy12]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

What statistics might those be?

I think that poster was talking about the 5 INTs, forgetting that three of them came against Mark Sanchez in an awful performance. Who didn't intercept him?

Again, I really feel he is a solid corner and would like to retain him like most, but he really isn't elite.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

I think that poster was talking about the 5 INTs, forgetting that three of them came against Mark Sanchez in an awful performance. Who didn't intercept him?

Again, I really feel he is a solid corner and would like to retain him like most, but he really isn't elite.

and Wilhite and Wheatley will adequately fill his shoes. Earthwind Mooreland will add some much needed depth

 

[NEGoldenAge]

McGowan has done some great work in the slot.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Butler is trying to convince Bodden to stay.

Same scenario as Jabar Gaffney. The hubris came back to bite BB in the *ss when garbage like Galloway, Lewis etc did not work out. No worries, it will happen once again.

Get used to Butler and Wilhite, with Wheatley as the 3rd CB.

We missed Gaffney, the All-Pro!

The fact that we went into camp with Moss, Welker, Edelman, Galloway, Brandon Tate, Lewis on the roster does not play into this. Gaffney was the answer.