Building your draft board position by position - week 5: Linebacker

[AzPatsFan]

Overlooked

ILB prospects:

1. A nose for the ball.
2. An ability to play through trash.
3. An ability to fight off blocks.
4. Great tacklers.

Minimum measurables: 240 lbs, 5'11", 4.8-ish 40

1st round:

Chad Greenway, Iowa, 6'2.5" 242 4.75. I see him in Phifer's coverage role as opposed to an every down player. He could eventually work his way into an every down role as he builds up strength and bulk.
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/olb/chadgreenway.html

2nd round: None.

3rd round:

Chris Gocong, Cal-Poly, 6'2" 263 4.70. As already noted he demonstrated an ability to find the ball quickly with his play in the Shrine Game - I also liked his lane discipline. Draft Daddy http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/EastWest.cfm had this to say. He looked good in drills at the Combine and has pretty impressive stats: http://condraft.com/player.php?id=498 Beck is 30 lbs lighter and listed as a LB for Atlanta, NFL.com has no stats for him.

Tim McGarigle, Northwestern, 6' 242 4.73. NCAA's all-time leading tackler with 545 take downs. http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ilb/timmcgarigle.html From my Shrine Game notes:


Tim Dobbins, Iowa St., 6'1" 246 4.63. More of a two down run stuffer, but could learn coverage skills. http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ilb/timdobbins.html


Mike Kudla, Ohio St., 6'1.5" 265 4.70. The Huddle Report had him as one of their features and listed his strengths: His weakness is the injuries he wracked up playing with reckless abandon.

Box,

You've missed the very best ILB in the draft,next to Hawk. This guy is so good and quick that he also starred at another position, but I theorize that ILB is probably his BEST position.

The guy is Bobby Carpenter, who trains with Vrabel and models himself after MV. Like Vrabel he can play OLB, rush the passer, and control the wide run and pursue. But also like Vrable, he can move inside, instinctively diagnose the play, find the ball, and is big enough to stop the inside run and stand up Guards.

I think that Manny Lawson is the athletic freak that makes Willie expendable, but for pure value, Bobby Carpenter is who I would pick at # 21. I'd also trade up in the second round if I could, if Manny fell to 30 - 40 and try to get him as well.

In the BB defense, superior athletes are required at LB to make his defense function, and therefor I don't mind spending picks to get quality inside and outside guys when rebuilding the LB corps.

 

[rookBoston]

Granted, the goal of a NT in a 3-4 is to occupy 2 blockers, this also works for the DEs, which is why a healthy 3-4 defense is led in tackles by ILB and SS. But remember the Patriots play 'two-gap' defense:

___ TE __ RT __ RG __ C __ LG __ LT __ TE __
. \ . . / .\ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . /
..OLB.....RDE..RILB....NT....LILB...LDE....OLB....

Well that's sometimes the way they line up, but not generally. I think this is more normal:


_______________ RB
__ RT ___RG __ C ___ LG __ LT __ TE _
. \ . . / .\ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . /
...OLB.....RDE....NT....LDE....OLB...\../
........................ILB...................ILB

Think of all the times where Vrabel beats the OT around the edge to sack the QB. Seymour generally lines up against the LG and Colvin against the LT. And think of all the plays where Bruschi chases the RB out of the backfield.

The ILBs need to take on the OGs when they blitz, the DL stunts, or the OL gets downfield to block for the run.

I think BB likes bigger and stronger LBs only partially because they're lined up against OL-men. More, he likes playing physical smashmouth football where the team has the bulk to stand the offense up at the goal line. He likes players who can outlast their opponents physically. He's willing to give up a bit in individual speed at LB and take the extra size.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box,

You've missed the very best ILB in the draft,next to Hawk. This guy is so good and quick that he also starred at another position, but I theorize that ILB is probably his BEST position.

The guy is Bobby Carpenter, who trains with Vrabel and models himself after MV. Like Vrabel he can play OLB, rush the passer, and control the wide run and pursue. But also like Vrable, he can move inside, instinctively diagnose the play, find the ball, and is big enough to stop the inside run and stand up Guards.

I think that Manny Lawson is the athletic freak that makes Willie expendable, but for pure value, Bobby Carpenter is who I would pick at # 21. I'd also trade up in the second round if I could, if Manny fell to 30 - 40 and try to get him as well.

In the BB defense, superior athletes are required at LB to make his defense function, and therefor I don't mind spending picks to get quality inside and outside guys when rebuilding the LB corps.

From a signal calling perspective there was enough doubt raised to have me limit him to the OLB board.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Well that's sometimes the way they line up, but not generally. I think this is more normal:


_______________ RB
__ RT ___RG __ C ___ LG __ LT __ TE _
. \ . . / .\ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . /
...OLB.....RDE....NT....LDE....OLB...\../
........................ILB...................ILB

Think of all the times where Vrabel beats the OT around the edge to sack the QB. Seymour generally lines up against the LG and Colvin against the LT. And think of all the plays where Bruschi chases the RB out of the backfield.

The ILBs need to take on the OGs when they blitz, the DL stunts, or the OL gets downfield to block for the run.

I think BB likes bigger and stronger LBs only partially because they're lined up against OL-men. More, he likes playing physical smashmouth football where the team has the bulk to stand the offense up at the goal line. He likes players who can outlast their opponents physically. He's willing to give up a bit in individual speed at LB and take the extra size.

You may need to adjust the horizontal hold next season.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

The advantage Carpenter has is that he is 256 lbs. Also he is verstile. Also according to NFL Draft Countdown, he does an excellent job in pass-coverage. He also "flies to the ball and makes plays sideline to sideline. Carpenter played OLB 4 years at OSU, but has lined up at DE a few times.

Manny's simply has got better pure pass-rushing speed. At 241, he's undersized in our scheme. He's got to put on 9 lbs. He also would need to improve against the run.

Both players benefited from top-10 atheletes AJ Hawk and Mario.


It comes down to the same old horns of a dilemma: do you go with the more finished player or the one who has got more upside.

It really is a coin-flip. Because of size and versitility, I'm thinking Carpenter. He really could be an OLB or develop into ILB. There is a line going around that Carptenter doesn't have instinct. Was it a scout that said it and if so when?

To be honest, I would be thrilled with either Manny or Carpenter in the 1st. Carpenter just strikes me as a "finished" 3 down player who can play sooner rather than later (which is what is going to happen with the team that drafts Kiwi).

 

[shirtsleeve]

Well that's sometimes the way they line up, but not generally. I think this is more normal:


_______________ RB
__ RT ___RG __ C ___ LG __ LT __ TE _
. \ . . / .\ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . / \ . . /
...OLB.....RDE....NT....LDE....OLB...\../
........................ILB...................ILB

Think of all the times where Vrabel beats the OT around the edge to sack the QB. Seymour generally lines up against the LG and Colvin against the LT. And think of all the plays where Bruschi chases the RB out of the backfield.

The ILBs need to take on the OGs when they blitz, the DL stunts, or the OL gets downfield to block for the run.

I think BB likes bigger and stronger LBs only partially because they're lined up against OL-men. More, he likes playing physical smashmouth football where the team has the bulk to stand the offense up at the goal line. He likes players who can outlast their opponents physically. He's willing to give up a bit in individual speed at LB and take the extra size.

Wow, not sure about that one... Kinda see an alignment closer to Box's than yours. Where the RILB lines up back, but over the 3 and the LILB lines up over the 4, and the strong side OLB (TE) is in a two point over that gap. but I know what you mean.

 

[big mike]

The advantage Carpenter has is that he is 256 lbs. Also he is verstile. Also according to NFL Draft Countdown, he does an excellent job in pass-coverage. He also "flies to the ball and makes plays sideline to sideline. Carpenter played OLB 4 years at OSU, but has lined up at DE a few times.

Manny's simply has got better pure pass-rushing speed. At 241, he's undersized in our scheme. He's got to put on 9 lbs. He also would need to improve against the run.

Both players benefited from top-10 atheletes AJ Hawk and Mario.


It comes down to the same old horns of a dilemma: do you go with the more finished player or the one who has got more upside.

That's exactly the way I'm looking at Carpenter vs. Lawson. Lawson has more upside (pure speed, and has a frame to easily put on the extra pounds), but Carpenter is more ready for LB in the Pats system, and more of a sure thing I think. His working out with Vrabel likely boosts his stock in BBs eyes.

Unless we pick up Arrington in FA, I think most likely pick #21 will be spent on Lawson or Carpenter (possibly trading down - although I don't think they'd trade down for Lawson - his pure speed is more likely to move him up).

Right now, what I'm thinking - assumign Arrington is not signed by the Pats - is go with Carpenter in round 1, and perhaps take Ryan LaCasse later in the draft (possibily round 4): http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/de/ryanlacasse.html
He just ran a 4.4 something 40 at the Syracuse Pro Day. He's basically a poor man's Manny Lawson - he has almost as much speed, but actually has better size - but his on field performance wasn't as good as Lawson's. But, he has great intangibles. I'd love to see us get Carpenter AND LaCasse (as a development player). Carpenter could eventually move to ILB, and LaCasse could develop to OLB.

It really is a coin-flip. Because of size and versitility, I'm thinking Carpenter. He really could be an OLB or develop into ILB. There is a line going around that Carptenter doesn't have instinct. Was it a scout that said it and if so when?

I'm thinking a team said it to try to turn other teams away from drafting him, so he'd fall to them.

To be honest, I would be thrilled with either Manny or Carpenter in the 1st. Carpenter just strikes me as a "finished" 3 down player who can play sooner rather than later (which is what is going to happen with the team that drafts Kiwi).

Ditto. That's what I like about the thought of taking Carpenter, and then LaCasse later on. LaCasse would be a nice OLB developmental project. Likely wouldn't ever be as good as Lawson, but he could develop into a very solid OLB.

 

[dryheat44]

Ditto. That's what I like about the thought of taking Carpenter, and then LaCasse later on. LaCasse would be a nice OLB developmental project. Likely wouldn't ever be as good as Lawson, but he could develop into a very solid OLB.

I could get aboard this plan. My personal preference is to do it the other way around: Get Lawson first, and then a developmental ILB, or one who's undervalued, later in the draft.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Daryl Tapp was featured on NFL Total Access tonight, talk about a young man making a good first impression regarding his attitude. Very well spoken, just came across as very intelligent and as a willing and eager worker. I liked his play in the Senior Bowl and his production statistically, but this just cemented him as one of my top picks I'd like to see for the Pats in this draft.

 

[patchick]

One guy whose name hasn't come up is DE Rob Ninkovich from Purdue. Ninkovich is one of those all-world intangibles guys -- ultra-competitive, a relentless worker, beloved by teammates. He's a juco transfer who unseated Ray Edwards, an absolute blue-chipper, by outworking him by a mile...and proceeded to outproduce him on the field. He averaged 8 sacks and 13 tackles for loss over two years, despite some platooning.

Ninkovich is usually projected to 3-4 LB. I suspect he didn't make a lot of first cuts here because of his pokey 40 time (4.91). But I just went back and looked at his splits, and it turns out they're pretty darned good -- same range as Darryl Tapp. And his other measurables, cone and shuttle especially, are terrific:

Height: 6'3"
Weight: 260
40 Yrd Dash: 4.91
20 Yrd Dash: 2.83
10 Yrd Dash: 1.66
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 23
Vertical Jump: 34 1/2
Broad Jump: 9'8"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.18
3-Cone Drill: 6.96

I've seen him projected everywhere from 4th round to UDFA. Any thoughts?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

One guy whose name hasn't come up is DE Rob Ninkovich from Purdue. Ninkovich is one of those all-world intangibles guys -- ultra-competitive, a relentless worker, beloved by teammates. He's a juco transfer who unseated Ray Edwards, an absolute blue-chipper, by outworking him by a mile...and proceeded to outproduce him on the field. He averaged 8 sacks and 13 tackles for loss over two years, despite some platooning.

Ninkovich is usually projected to 3-4 LB. I suspect he didn't make a lot of first cuts here because of his pokey 40 time (4.91). But I just went back and looked at his splits, and it turns out they're pretty darned good -- same range as Darryl Tapp. And his other measurables, cone and shuttle especially, are terrific:

Height: 6'3"
Weight: 260
40 Yrd Dash: 4.91
20 Yrd Dash: 2.83
10 Yrd Dash: 1.66
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 23
Vertical Jump: 34 1/2
Broad Jump: 9'8"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.18
3-Cone Drill: 6.96

I've seen him projected everywhere from 4th round to UDFA. Any thoughts?

Good times. He played in the Shrine Game and didn't make my summary. I can't see him before the 6th.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

bump......

 

[Flying Fungi]

bump......