Building your draft board position by position - week 5: LB

[PATRIOTS-80]

So here's the deal. I think Willis is our best option and the only player that I would trade up for. Measurables be damned he is a football player and will be able to thrive in the Patriots system.

Now, if we can't get Willis, then Bradley is our next option. We don't have a 2nd ronder and if we can't trade down with #28, I say grab him at 28. "Reaches" are for draft gurus and media people to yap about after the draft. If he's becomes a TJ type ILB for us then he's worth #28.

After Bradley, I'd look at Harris.

I have seen one pundit rank Bradley as high as #29 for the Ravens to replace A. Thomas, so its not crazy.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/don_banks/02/15/mock.draft2.part3/index.html

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Bradley may be just a 3rd-round talent, but he has supply and demand on his side this year. If you want a big LB, where else do you turn? (For that matter, Anthony Spencer wouldn't have been a 1st rounder last year either. No way he beats out Wimbley, Carpenter or Lawson.)

exactly, supply and demand. Bradley played the actual LB position in college. Woodley and other DE projects are much more of a projection.

 

[sebman2112]

exactly, supply and demand. Bradley played the actual LB position in college. Woodley and other DE projects are much more of a projection.

Woodley played LB in college as well. He played DE in 4-3 schemes, and OLB in 3-4 schemes. neither played ILB on any regulary basis, so they will both be projects. Also, Bradley had a bad knee injury, which could effect his draft stock.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I've posted before bu I'll do it again.

There are two distinct ILB positions. WILB and SILB.

ILB
Bruschi was always the WILB until last year, when the Pats needed to pick up Jr and he wasn't an ILB at all and didn't know the Defense. So they moved Tedy to SILB so he could d call the plays and let Jr just play, and handle the run from the simpler WILB position, which he did by just sheer intimidation.

Tedy's game suffered because of the move from his old position. As the SILB has to take on more Linemen or a lineman and FB/TS chip, and can't just slip one guy as he did at WILB. Plus he played one handed, which made Jui-Jitsu moves of using their strength against them, to slip blocks, very difficult. SILBs have to take on the Blocks squared up like TJ.

I concur with Box. Willis is the best MLB and maybe WILB in the draft. He is not the best SILB though.

David Harris is the best SILB. He has the size and the diagnostic instincts to be the Defense caller, the Mike man eventually. And SILB is where the defense was traditionally called. Harris has great instincts and hsi technique is very good. He squares up to take the block. perfect to play SILB, especially in the Pats system. Harrsi was credited with very good pass coverage cosnsidering... th econsidering was that he was a 4.8ish LB not a 4.55 guy who had more range. I predict that Bruschi will play much better if:
a) he can return to WILB and
b) can play his Jui-Jitsu with two hands.

If you diagnose the need as more for a SILB, than Harris is your man.
If you diagnose the need as more WILB, than Willis or the next best agile player is your man. The next most agile guy? Paul Posluzny, IMO.

In all these discussions let us remember Box's LB definition: a 4.8 ish and ...

Willis is sub 4.5, Harris is sub 4.6, and Pos is sub 4.65. These are all great speeds "SuperStar" speeds, for a LB. All have great instincts, and all are BB sized or will be there after a pro season in the weight room. One attribute of Bill's 3-4 is he can accept slightly slower speeds if he has the size, but for any of this three he gives up nothing. But for or a couple of other gambles he need not give up size, but a little speed or instincts.

For the Patriots scheme, all three are Round 1 players, IMO. Who cares what Tampa Cover 2 scouts think and down grade them for?

The other two candidates are the Cornhusker and Zak DeOssie. DeOssie has played at a lower level but he has smarts and size and sub 4.55 speed while the Husker has the big time college football experience with 4.7 speed. Zak 3, Husker 3-4. I don 't think Woodley is an ILB. He is a short DE and maybe OLB.

OLB
For the OLB position I like Spencer in the 2-3. Woodley less so, but the same 2-3-4 area. Morris and Adams I don't like for the Pats system. Carriker is a 3-4 DE 1st rounder, to play with Seymour, Warren, Jarvis, Mitchell etc...

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Woodley played LB in college as well. He played DE in 4-3 schemes, and OLB in 3-4 schemes. neither played ILB on any regulary basis, so they will both be projects. Also, Bradley had a bad knee injury, which could effect his draft stock.

Woodley played most the time with his hand on the ground as 4-3 DE. Bradley played strong OLB in the Husker system. I really don't see Woodley as an ILB at all. Maybe as a OLB, but DE conversions are tricky. Maybe its just me, but I'm leaning towards Bradley because he could play OLB, or strong ILB.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Who cares what Tampa Cover 2 scouts think and down grade them for?

Important point. When I watched Willis in the Senior Bowl, I pegged him as a a Tampa-2 MLB. He's got that sideline-to-sideline speed that is necessary for that system.

The other two candidates are the Cornhusker and Zak DeOssie. DeOssie has played at a lower level but he has smarts and size and sub 4.55 speed while the Husker has the big time college football experience with 4.7 speed. Zak 3, Husker 3-4.

I like Zak and Bradley. As far as verastile football players, they remind me of Ty Warren, when there was the debate of whether he would play NT or DE.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

I've posted before bu I'll do it again.

There are two distinct ILB positions. WILB and SILB.

ILB
Bruschi was always the WILB until last year, when the Pats needed to pick up Jr and he wasn't an ILB at all and didn't know the Defense. So they moved Tedy to SILB so he could d call the plays and let Jr just play, and handle the run from the simpler WILB position, which he did by just sheer intimidation.

Tedy's game suffered because of the move from his old position. As the SILB has to take on more Linemen or a lineman and FB/TS chip, and can't just slip one guy as he did at WILB. Plus he played one handed, which made Jui-Jitsu moves of using their strength against them, to slip blocks, very difficult. SILBs have to take on the Blocks squared up like TJ.

I concur with Box.

I like Bradley as a SILB, or as an OLB.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

"At 237 lbs, Willis ran the 40 in 4.37 and 4.38."

per GBN

The impression I got from Willis is that he is a "run-and-chase" LB. He is not going to blow OG up at the LOS and make the tackle. What he brings to the table is speed and lots of it. He would thrive in a tampa-2 system that has big DT who keep the interior solidified, and Willis can run and make the tackle from sideline-to-sideline.

Our system doesn't necessarily require speed and lots of it. We need big LB. A Zak DeOssie/Teddy Bruschi type player is what we need for WILB, and Stew Bradley/Ted Johnson is the type of LB needed for SILB.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

I've posted before bu I'll do it again.

There are two distinct ILB positions. WILB and SILB.

ILB
Bruschi was always the WILB until last year, when the Pats needed to pick up Jr and he wasn't an ILB at all and didn't know the Defense. So they moved Tedy to SILB so he could d call the plays and let Jr just play, and handle the run from the simpler WILB position, which he did by just sheer intimidation.

Tedy's game suffered because of the move from his old position. As the SILB has to take on more Linemen or a lineman and FB/TS chip, and can't just slip one guy as he did at WILB. Plus he played one handed, which made Jui-Jitsu moves of using their strength against them, to slip blocks, very difficult. SILBs have to take on the Blocks squared up like TJ.

I concur with Box. Willis is the best MLB and maybe WILB in the draft. He is not the best SILB though.

David Harris is the best SILB. He has the size and the diagnostic instincts to be the Defense caller, the Mike man eventually. And SILB is where the defense was traditionally called. Harris has great instincts and hsi technique is very good. He squares up to take the block. perfect to play SILB, especially in the Pats system. Harrsi was credited with very good pass coverage cosnsidering... th econsidering was that he was a 4.8ish LB not a 4.55 guy who had more range. I predict that Bruschi will play much better if:
a) he can return to WILB and
b) can play his Jui-Jitsu with two hands.

If you diagnose the need as more for a SILB, than Harris is your man.
If you diagnose the need as more WILB, than Willis or the next best agile player is your man. The next most agile guy? Paul Posluzny, IMO.

In all these discussions let us remember Box's LB definition: a 4.8 ish and ...

Willis is sub 4.5, Harris is sub 4.6, and Pos is sub 4.65. These are all great speeds "SuperStar" speeds, for a LB. All have great instincts, and all are BB sized or will be there after a pro season in the weight room. One attribute of Bill's 3-4 is he can accept slightly slower speeds if he has the size, but for any of this three he gives up nothing. But for or a couple of other gambles he need not give up size, but a little speed or instincts.

For the Patriots scheme, all three are Round 1 players, IMO. Who cares what Tampa Cover 2 scouts think and down grade them for?

The other two candidates are the Cornhusker and Zak DeOssie. DeOssie has played at a lower level but he has smarts and size and sub 4.55 speed while the Husker has the big time college football experience with 4.7 speed. Zak 3, Husker 3-4. I don 't think Woodley is an ILB. He is a short DE and maybe OLB.

OLB
For the OLB position I like Spencer in the 2-3. Woodley less so, but the same 2-3-4 area. Morris and Adams I don't like for the Pats system. Carriker is a 3-4 DE 1st rounder, to play with Seymour, Warren, Jarvis, Mitchell etc...

I watched Harris in the Senior Bowl, and quite honestly I like Harris as a SILB. Harris just worked his way through trash and was impressive. Harris just seems to have that "it" factor. I remember noting that.

 

[sebman2112]

As I said before Harris is a good LB, but he needs to work on his hand work, and technique. I think he has very good recognition skills though, so he could turn into a very good backer. I don't think he is as good against the run as Woodley, or Bradley, and not as good of a pass rusher as Woodley.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

I honestly didnt mean that to come off snobish

snob. hehehehehe.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Week Five brings us to the charming controversy of Linebackers.

charming? Somehow I just don't think the words "charming" and "LB" should ever be in the same sentence.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

As far as where pundits rank the LB, the key question I have for Box and company is, do you subscribe to Jimmy Johnson's theory of, "if your guy you are targeting won't make it to the next pick, then its not a reach." In other words, if you can't get a dance partner to trade with, do you bite the bullet and hear the dreaded screeching of "reach" by all the pundits?

I say yes, especially in view of the new CBA. Getting the same guy 15,20 spots later, but only signing him to a 4 year deal isn't necessarily peachy. I'd rather "reach" and get him for that 5th year.

 

[cstjohn17]

Two questions, help is needed.

1) What are the general thoughts on these guys at OLB?

Round 1
Moss, *Jarvis Florida 1-2 6-7 250 4.70 - skinny but has an high upside

Round 3+
Moses, Quentin Georgia 2-3 6-5 261 4.82 - he is sliding and could be a sleeper
Abiamiri, Victor Notre Dame 3 6-4 267 4.80 - seems like he may not be athletic enough
Bazuin, Dan Central Michigan 3 6-3 266 4.77 - seems like he may not be athletic enough
Atkins, Baraka Miami 3-4 6-5 271 4.69 - bigger guy not that fast but he has made an impact in every game I saw

2) Any chance these guys can convert to ILB?
Shaw, Tim Penn State 3-4 6-2 236 4.51
Everett, Earl Florida 3-4 6-3 238 4.73
Barnes, Antwan Florida International 3-4 6-1 240 4.43
Black, Quincy New Mexico 4 6-2 240 4.42
Burgess, Prescott Michigan 6-7 6-4 240 4.82
Hickman, Justin UCLA 6-7 6-2 254 4.75

 

[hobbsownscoles]

As I said before Harris is a good LB, but he needs to work on his hand work, and technique. I think he has very good recognition skills though, so he could turn into a very good backer. I don't think he is as good against the run as Woodley, or Bradley, and not as good of a pass rusher as Woodley.

well of course he isn't as good of a pass rusher as woodley. Woodley is a pass rushing defensive end and Harris is a ilb why wouldn't he be

 

[DaBruinz]

Woodley played LB in college as well. He played DE in 4-3 schemes, and OLB in 3-4 schemes. neither played ILB on any regulary basis, so they will both be projects. Also, Bradley had a bad knee injury, which could effect his draft stock.

Now you are just grasping at straws.

Bradley proved that his knee is not an issue.

 

[SamBamsFan]

Two questions, help is needed.

1) What are the general thoughts on these guys at OLB?

Round 1
Moss, *Jarvis Florida 1-2 6-7 250 4.70 - skinny but has an high upside

Round 3+
Moses, Quentin Georgia 2-3 6-5 261 4.82 - he is sliding and could be a sleeper
Abiamiri, Victor Notre Dame 3 6-4 267 4.80 - seems like he may not be athletic enough
Bazuin, Dan Central Michigan 3 6-3 266 4.77 - seems like he may not be athletic enough
Atkins, Baraka Miami 3-4 6-5 271 4.69 - bigger guy not that fast but he has made an impact in every game I saw

2) Any chance these guys can convert to ILB?
Shaw, Tim Penn State 3-4 6-2 236 4.51
Everett, Earl Florida 3-4 6-3 238 4.73
Barnes, Antwan Florida International 3-4 6-1 240 4.43
Black, Quincy New Mexico 4 6-2 240 4.42
Burgess, Prescott Michigan 6-7 6-4 240 4.82
Hickman, Justin UCLA 6-7 6-2 254 4.75

1st, I don't think that we will take a conversion candidate in the first round (Jarvis Moss), and I think that we have had better candidates to attempt it with in the past few years than Moss and passed.
In your 3+ catagory, the only one I think I would try it w/ would be Atkins on the talent basis. However he seems to be motivationally disfunctioned (I'm not quite sure either of those is really a word, but I'll stand by their meaning).
Tim Shaw, Quincy Black, & Prescott Burgess I would consider, depending on where were selecting them.

 

[captain stone]

I watched Harris in the Senior Bowl, and quite honestly I like Harris as a SILB. Harris just worked his way through trash and was impressive. Harris just seems to have that "it" factor. I remember noting that.

This is an important determinant for success as a 3-4 ILB:
How well can you work your way through trash?

In order to do it well, the ILB needs:
Field intellegence, partly born from experience
Hand-eye coordination
Nimble feet
Short-area quickness/explosiveness
Size/strength
Sideline-to-sideline speed

This may be why it can be tricky to project a college DE, OLB, even MLB to 3-4 ILB: some of the skills required to play the position well are inherently unique to that position. Evaluation is therefore comprised less of anecdotal evidence, and more of instinctual reliance.
For instance: many of us feel fairly comfortable with projecting Stewart Bradley to ILB. But has he ever had to deal with the action taking place smack dab in the middle of the field, to borrow from Tennyson, with 300-pounders to the right of him, 300-pounders to the left of him, 300-pounders in front of him? At the same time?

Based on what I know, what I think I know, and what I don't know, I have narrowed my choices for 24 and 28 to the following:
CB - Chris Houston, Aaron Ross
LB - Paul Posluszny (David Harris is tempting, but...)
FS - Michael Griffin, Reggie Nelson (Brandon Meriweather has a lot of splainin to do first)

Unless Joe Staley is the LT of the Future, then 24 and 28 are defense and defense.
LaRon Landry and Leon Hall are top-12, and cannot be had.
Darrelle Revis and Patrick Willis are top-20, and can be had only via trade-up.

If all of the aforementioned are already of the board, then I would entertain offers to trade down, or out to 2008.
The rest of the usual suspects are either too inexperienced, too inconsistent, or too incorrigible to warrent (bottom-fourth) first-round consideration, David Harris notwithstanding.

 

[sebman2112]

Now you are just grasping at straws.

Bradley proved that his knee is not an issue.

How was I grasping at straws? It is listed in his scouting report as a durability flag. ACL's are a nasty thing and Bradley came back from it well, but it is still part of his injury history.


Incidently bruinz how come you never answered my question about the ESPN board? I was correct in assuming that was you wasn't I?

 

[Handel]

Could someone explain me the role of SILB and WILB? Thx.