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Building your draft board position by position - week 3: Wide Receiver

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by Box_O_Rocks, Feb 26, 2006.

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  1. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wide Receiver's are featured at the Combine today and week three of draft board construction addresses them.

    Discussion during Training Camp focused on the two skills required to be a good WR; do they get open, and when they do can they catch the ball?

    A third skill that is nice to have is blocking, or in the case of Tim Dwight who was not only the best blocker behind Givens, but also used his speed to run off CBs, clearing the run lanes or underneath passing lanes.

    It also helps if they don't take running plays off, Troy, Deion, and D-Giv all do a nice job of coming across the field to block upfield ahead of the runner.

    Yards after catch, either through making people miss or breaking tackles is
    another nice to have. Not to mention Special Team's skills.

    As in previous weeks, I'd appreciate knowing why you think a particular player fits in the Pats' system and where you dug up your information. The 2006 WR class is considered weak in comparison to past years, identifying receivers who can get the job done would seem to be critical for a team with only Branch, Johnson, and NFL Europe allotments on the roster.
  2. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I'm not sure he's a Pats prototype, but maybe that's a good thing. Hank Baskett I like for his size, hands, and blocking ability.

    I know not many people here are high on Mike Hass, but he seems to be a great route-runner who catches everything thrown near him.
  3. mavfan2390

    mavfan2390 Rookie

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    i really like martin nance he may not fit the pats style (hes tall, not too fast), but when i saw him play with ben burger at miami (oh) i was beyond impressed, he cold block well, and he just found a way to get it done, not to mention he knew how to use his body, and his height to his advantage
  4. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If I based my board solely on the All Star games I watched, Hass is my hands down, number one WR, he got open and caught the ball in the Shrine Game. I want to watch today's efforts at the Combine before I start my board, but Hass is my draft standard for the position.

    Basket made one really nice grab in the Senior Bowl on a come back/sideline route that was thrown low and away so he had to make a diving catch. He also dropped some. Bearing in mind the competition level, Brandon Marshall was the best BIG MAN WR based on his Hula Bowl performance. Stovall slides in at second, then Basket and Hagan tie for third.
  5. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Just watched Chad Jackson run. Sub 4.4, and he's chiseled like a Greek Statue. I watched a couple of UF games late in the season, and have him as my #3 WR. He most likely will be there at 21. I was against drafting a WR first round, but am reconsidering.
  6. Boston Tim

    Boston Tim Rookie

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    As a very generalized rule, I tend to move players down as a result of a bad combine but am mostly unwilling to move them up after a good workout. I figure that a bad workout could be problem revealing, while a good workout only means that the player is a good athelete and not necessarily a good football player.
  7. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Then why move them down? Maybe someone's not a great athlete, but not a bad football player?

    I agree in the sense that the draft is overrated and just a tool in evaluating. For example, I tend to largely ignore the 40 for every position except WR. I do like to see the guys in comparison to each other though.
  8. drew4008

    drew4008 Rookie

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    Chad Jackson just ran a 4.32 and is now in contention for the #1 WR spot, depending on how Holmes performs at his pro day.
  9. Boston Tim

    Boston Tim Rookie

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    That is possible, which is why I would move them down only if I thought that the bad workout was indicative of an underlying problem. For example, a player with an old injury has trouble with the shuttle run. Is it because he isn't a good athlete or is it something more serious?

    That is probably the most useful part of the combine. The other useful thing I take from it is to ignore any player that was largely unknown before the combine but that started shooting up draftboards after the combine.
  10. mavfan2390

    mavfan2390 Rookie

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    i dont have acces to the nfl network, so can someone tell me how martin nance does? thanks a lot
  11. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm generally skeptical of combine phenoms too, but small-conference players can be an exception. The combine is often their first chance to overcome the "low level of competition" questions and demonstrate that they stack up with the big boys. Brian Urlacher was a classic example.
  12. borisman

    borisman Rookie

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    Yeah, I saw a couple of OSU games this year and Hass catches everything in his area code. Their QB was always under pressure & not too accurate so if he was on a team with a good QB then his stats would look even better. He reminds me of Ricky Proehl but with less speed. He probably runs a 4.58-4.62. But he has good size and as you said runs great routes and gets open. He'll be a great pick-up if he's on the board in round 4.

    Re: Chad Jackson

    If you look at his sophomore season when Zook had them throwing the ball downfield you'll see Jackson with a 20 ypc ave. Everyone knew he had good speed but 4.37? Ouch! He's still young & needs to run crisper routes but has separation speed and quickness that can't be taught.
    Chad Jackson could = Chad Johnson. That's his upside.

    edit: spelling
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2006
  13. Mark Morse

    Mark Morse PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #15 Jersey

    Avant is my #1 choice

    Jason Avant a Big WR from Michigan ... runs all out on every pass patten, has great hands and terrific moves to seperate himself from DB's. Just saw him do the gauntlet drill and he was spectacular. Caught all the passes away from his body and ran the perfect line, then caught the last pass and got both feet down before going out of bounds.

    I was alos impressed with Mike Haas. Chad Jackson looks like Adonis and runs like Mercury, but can't catch to save his life. He is not on my draft board at all.
  14. borisman

    borisman Rookie

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    Another thing to keep in mind when evaluating Florida U receivers and their track record in the NFL is all of them were in Spurriers system, which was WR friendly.
  15. kurtinelson

    kurtinelson Rookie

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    I'm curious how you came to that assessment? Game performance or the combine?
  16. drew4008

    drew4008 Rookie

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    When he tore up my FSU team, he caught everything in sight. He is a very "reliable" target, and his main strength from what I've seen is that he can find the open part of the field very easily, a trait I'd say is one of Branch's main strengths as well. I wasn't expecting this kind of blazing time though, so his stock continues to rise. Some sites had this guy as low as an early 3rd rounder, but I knew he wouldn't go that low.
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But Spurrier has been gone from Florida U for 3 years now. So, at best, Jackson was a rookie under him.

    On a different note, I'd like to find out how BYU's Todd Watkins and Wisonsin's Jonathan Orr have done at the combine.
  18. drew4008

    drew4008 Rookie

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    Watkins - 4.41
    Orr - 4.49

    Both unofficial for now.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2006
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am also interested in their 225lbs numbers... If they both put up good reps then they both could be potential candidates.

    Watkins is intriguing because he actually has kicked field goals in his career. He could, potentially, be the Pats version of Wes Welker.
  20. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    Did anyone watch the challenge on ESPN where Chad Jackson destroyed everyone else on the jugs machine? Can't catch? Yeah right. With his 4.32 or whatever he ran I wouldn't be surprised if Jackson was the first WR taken and probably goes top 15 with a Troy Williamson type rise.
  21. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My impressions from the first WR group:

    u = unofficial time

    no 40 time = I didn't get to see them run or they didn't make the top 5 players who NFL network reported.

    Receivers I liked:
    - Mike Hass - 4.61u - ran best gauntlet 1st time, lost rythm and got it back on second. Slower 40, but his "drill speed" was consistently good. Maintained his focus when he got in trouble in drill and was able to recover and finish strong. I'm biased after seeing him in Shrine Game, this kid replaces Givens with minimal effort.
    - Jason Avant - no 40 time - ran two good gauntlets. He had some drops in Senior Bowl practices, but was his possession move the chains self in the game. I've seen him play the last two years and like his circus grabs on poor throws. This kid can replace Givens with a year of good coaching.
    - Chris Denney - 4.7u - ran two good gauntlets. Nebraska-Omaha kid, had good drill speed and was recognized by his peers yelling for him. Good late round-UDFA prospect for a possession WR.
    - David Anderson - no 40 time - ran two good gauntlets. Good drill speed. He disappeared in the Shrine Game, but I couldn't tell if he was covered well or the QBs weren't looking for him. Good late round-UDFA prospect for a possession WR.
    - Ed Hinkel - 4.5u - ran two good gauntlets - took eyes off ball on one sideline catch, but had good drill speed. I watched him work his butt off to get open and try to help his scrambling QBs in the Hula Bowl (did I ever mention the QBs in that game sucked?). Good late round-UDFA prospect for a possession WR.


    Proven guys who I think would be okay with good coaching and a little time in the system (they don't adjust as well to change):
    - Jovon Bouknight - 4.74u - concentration - based on Combine drills only.
    - Derek Hagan - 4.42 - concentration, slower game speed - made some tough catches in the Senior Bowl and some easy drops.
    - Jason Carter - 4.62u - concentration - made some nice plays in the Shrine Game working with 'his' QB, should be a decent third WR.


    Raw, need extra work - talent is there, just need to decide if it is worth the time/price of extraction:
    - Chad Jackson - 4.32 - junior
    - Will Blackmon - 4.46 - too many position changes
    - Miles Auston - no 40 time - small school
    - Marques Hagans - 4.62u - QB conversion
    - Damarius Bilbo - 4.74u - QB conversion
    - Chris Hannon - 4.43u - fast, concentration


    Thumbs down:
    - Hank Baskett - no 40 time - slow drill speed, trouble concentrating. Drills re-enforced Senior Bowl impressions.
    - Skyler Green - 4.44 - inconsistent, too many body catches.
    - Marques Colston - 4.43u - slow game speed. Drills re-enforced Shrine Game impressions.
    - Devon Aromashadu - 4.35 - fast, but too many body catches.

    Ran 40 only:
    - Jeremy Bloom - 4.49u
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2006
  22. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

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    Warning: these WR may all suck

    It's really hard for me to get too pumped about either Chad Johnson or Santonio Holmes... or any of them, really. None of these players were Larry Fitzgerald or Mark Clayton in college. The best of them were on the good side of mediocre. So, let's not get too excited. Remember that Tony Simmons was big and fast, too.

    IMO, there's no reason to even think about WR at #21. Urgent need aside, none of these players are worth it. At best, we'd be reaching for someone we want to fall in love with... based on hopes and projections, not reality. But where's the value?

    The type of WR that's worth a first rounder is someone like Mark Clayton, who had a proven college career, outstanding hands and great route running. Combine 40 times are not differentiators between success and failure in the NFL.

    I like what I've heard about Hass, but not as an early pick. Actually, I think Ed Hinkle is the kind of player we want to draft... 100% heart and hard work. And he may go undrafted. Another Bam Childress.
    I'm as optimistic about that Bloom kid as I am about any of the rest of them.

    I think we're as likely to get a legitimate starter by drafting a guy in the 4th or 5th round, as we are in the 1st. Let's wait till the 3rd round, and see what's left on the board.
  23. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    2nd WR group:

    All 40 times unofficial

    With only two exceptions, I thought this group of WRs did a very nice job. No body catchers, no slow runners. The biggest problem was running too fast and not under control.

    Best body control:
    Greg Jennings - 4.41u
    Willie Reid - 4.41u
    Richie Ross - 4.66u
    Jeff Webb - 4.37u
    Brandon Williams - 4.49u

    No complaints:
    Adam Jennings - 4.49u
    Greg Lee - 4.62u
    Brandon Marshall - 4.5u
    Martin Nance - 4.58u
    Ben Obomanu - 4.41u
    Jonathon Orr - 4.49u
    Cory Rodgers - 4.66u
    Clinton Solomon - 4.62u
    Maurice Stovall - 4.58u
    Delanie Walker - 4.58u
    Travis Wilson - 4.48u

    Poor body control:
    Anthony Mix - 4.45u
    Todd Watkins - 4.41u

    Not fully participating:
    Sinorice Moss - 4.34u - 40 only.
    Demetrius Williams - no 40 time - didn’t run the 40; my bias - I ignored his drills after seeing his alligator arms in the Senior Bowl.
  24. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Box -
    When you say poor body control, can you explain a bit more why you thought that? Thanks

    P.S. It will be interesting to see how Watkins and Orr do with their Shuttle times... That will also be a good indicator of body control. I think anyways.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2006
  25. Box_O_Rocks

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    They ran the gauntlet drill out of control, trying to run full speed instead of running at a game speed. It reminded me of Bethel hitting the afterburners and not being able to adjust his routes. The group as a whole was fast and confident in their hands and feet, Mix and Watkins just seemed to be too confident or trying too hard as they were unable to adjust as well for the deliberately off center throws. Some of the other guys pushed the envelope, but they made the plays which I didn't feel those two did when they ran the gauntlet drill which is really a nice test with the requirement to run a tight route and make rapid adjustments to the balls. Picky perhaps, but with so many other players running and catching as well it was a means of screening guys out.
  26. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I am one of those who doesn't have NFL Network so it helps to get the expanded information from someone I trust. Also, someone who has shown they have a good understanding of football evaluation.
  27. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your dooooooooommmed!!!!! :p
  28. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That may be. I am getting married on the 4th of July... *LOL*
  29. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I believe that situation means you'll be tormented - but my condolences to the lady, poor thing, putting up with such an cantankerous fellow. :D
  30. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Butch Davis likes:

    name: ---------------- reason:
    Jeremy Bloom - because he came from Italy to run the 40.
    Jason Avant - catching the football.
    Derek Hagan - because he is big.
    Chad Jackson - 4.32 40, scored well in each testing drill.
    Maurice Stovall - Charlie Weis trained him.
    Demetrius Williams - 6 ft 197 lbs.
    Brandon Marshall - 4.49 40, 6’4†229.
    Marques Colston - 4.43 40 from Chrebet’s old college.

    As well thought out as Butch's positions are, I can't help but wonder if he shares an agent with any of them?

    Best 40 times:
    Chad Jackson Florida 4.32
    Willie Reid FL State 4.34
    Devin Aromashodu Auburn 4.35
    Sinorice Moss Miami 4.38
    Jonathon Orr Wisconsin 4.41
    Derek Hagan Arizona State 4.42
    Adam Jennings Fresno State 4.42
    Marques Colston Hofstra 4.43
    Todd Watkins BYU 4.4
    Jeff Webb San Diego State 4.4
    Ben Obomanu Auburn 4.45
    Will Blackmon BC 4.46
    Miles Austin Monmouth 4.47
    Brandon Marshall Central FL 4.49
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