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Building your draft board position by position - week 2: DL

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by Box_O_Rocks, Feb 26, 2007.

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  1. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  2. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #11 Jersey

    As I work on this...to figure out the profile of sleeper candidates, I went back and looked at Mike Wright's pre-draft profile. Want to know how a total unknown, non-combine player from Cincinnati catches the Patriots' eye? Check out these Pro Day numbers:

    6'4"
    295 lbs.
    40: 4.81
    Vertical: 35" (!)
    Broad Jump: 10.0" (!)

    That's a pretty good portrait of a 3-4 DE body right there.
  3. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Amazing numbers for a guy his size.

    Ps. Nice work re-organizing the draft site, although I was just getting used to the unintuitive way of finding the draft form, now I have to re-train myself.

    Not a position of need but you can never have to much depth...

    Round 1-2
    - Branch - not woth discussing, top 7 pick
    - Carriker, Adam Nebraska 1 6-6 292 4.86 - he will be gone but looks to be a player who will play at a high level for a long time
    - Okoye, Amobi Louisville 1 6-2 287 5.03 - a little short, big upside but do we want a player to develop for 2-3 years at a position of strength when there are other needs to fill
    - Harrell, Justin Tennessee 2 6-4 305 5.09 - Massive, Seymour/Warren potential, coming off injury



    Rounds 2-3
    - Alama-Francis, Ikaika Hawaii 2 6-5 290 4.78 - injured, may impact draft stock, has experience in a 3-4
    - Thomas, Marcus Florida 2-3 6-3 290 4.96 - would have been round 1 if he didn't like the weed
    - Mebane, Brandon California 2-3 6-1 305 4.98 - backup NT? seems like a waste of a round 2 pick
    - Tyler, Tank North Carolina State 3 6-2 323 5.20 - strong 40+ reps of 225, - backup NT? seems like a waste of a round 2 pick
    - McBride, Turk Tennessee 3 6-4 276 4.93 - good body size for a 3-4 end


    Rounds 3-4
    - Atkins, Baraka Miami 4-5 6-4 278 4.86
    - At the combine he ran a 4.69 weighing 269, more of a Jarvis Green type
    - can get to the QB, maybe able to drop into coverage for a couple of snaps per game (think less athetic Wliie McG.)​

    Late rounds
    - Brown, Kareem Miami 5 6-4 303 5.09 - all world potential, can't seem to get it all together, every Miami game I saw this guy would make a play and you would say "How can I guy 300+ pounds make a play like that?" and then you wouldnt see him again for the rest of the game
    - Soliai, Paul Utah 4 6-4 325 5.32 - backup NT
  4. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Seems we've been slacking on these. Well, these are the names I have on my list as of today. I'm still researching in-depth their college career, and some will be whittled off shortly. Top 10 pick Alan Branch will not be appearing:

    DE:
    Day 1
    Adam Carriker DE Nebraska - The Holy Grail for this year's DL prospects. There's really nothing not to like. His availability at #24 is doubtful, but if he's there we'll see a bit into the Belichick draft philosophy.

    Ikaika Alama-Francis DE Hawaii - The drop-off from Carriker is significant. I'd be surprised if BB goes in this direction. Not a clear upgrade of defensive personnel.

    Day 2
    Antonio Johnson DT Mississippi State
    Jay Moore DE Nebraska A bit undersized for the position, but seems to have good functional strength and speed to compensate. Could be classic Wrightean "over-achiever".
    Quinn Pitrooster DT Ohio State
    Keith Jackson DT Arkansas

    UDFA
    Larry Brown DT Oklahoma State
    Mike DeVito DT Maine

    NT:

    Day1
    Justin Harrell DT Tennessee He's a bit undersized in the middle, but looks to have good enough versatility to play DE or three-techinque DT as well

    Day 2
    Paul Soliai DT Utah Classic two-gap body. It seems every year I have a Polynesian from Utah on my DL board. None have been drafted by the Pats, though.
    Quintin Echols DT Kansas State Raw, but undeniable upside. [/cliche]

    UDFA
    Kelly Talavou DT Utah
    Xavier Lawson-Kennedy DT Oklahoma State
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2007
  5. SamBamsFan

    SamBamsFan Rookie

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    I take it you're not high on Charles Johnson? Two others that you might have to think outside the box a bit on if they slip to early day two:

    Bazuin, Dan
    HT6027
    WT266
    40D4.77
    225B25
    20Y SH4.75
    BJ901
    3C7.09

    Crowder, Tim
    HT6035
    WT272
    40D4.69
    225B32
    VERT30.5
    20Y SH4.32
    BJ903
    3C7.28
    Both were extremely productive, intelligent 4 year starters. I wonder if either would project (like Klecko, Vrabel Bruschi) into possible 3-4 LB's. Their speed is questionable for the outside, but perhaps they could be used situationally for a couple of years as they are developed for the inside. Just a thought...
  6. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let's stay on topic folks, we're talking Patriots' 3-4 DL:
    - DE: 6'3"+++, 295-ish to 310, very strong, very athletic, very smart (we're talking about guys reading the O-line and backfield while wrestling with nasty minded 320-350 lb Rhodes' Scholar candidates).
    - NT: 6'+++, 310+++, very strong, very athletic, dumb enough to play bulls' eye for the offense and smart enough to read the O-line and backfield while wrestling with 300-350 lb nasty minded Rhodes' Scholar semi-finalists.

    Bazuin and Crowder are best discussed as possible LBs.
  7. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As usual, 3-4 capable DL are scarce as hen's teeth. Branch goes top 10 and isn't in consideration. Carriker is getting lots of love, but folks doing mocks don't know what to do with him, some allowing him to drop to Denver which puts him in striking range for the Pats. I'm a big advocate of hoarding if Carriker gets within striking range.

    EDIT: I'm using the 10 yd split for the DL, the 40 time is bloody useless.

    Adam Carriker, Nebraska, 6-6 296, 1.60 split, 33 reps, 33 1/2", 9'2" broad, 4.18 ss, 7.06 3-cone - the elite 3-4 DE in this draft, at least one write-up compares him to Seymour.
    Compare Carriker's numbers to OLB Paul Posluzney 1.56 split, 4.20 ss, 6.94 3-cone and ILB Patrick Willis 1.53 split, 4.46 ss, 7.23 3-cone. Carriker dominated at the Senior Bowl.

    Harrell is being considered the next highest ranked, he missed most of his senior with an injury. He ruptured a biceps tendon, postponed surgery and had it taped up so he could play the Florida game, a 21-20 Tennessee loss in which he made 3 tackles, 1 behind the LOS, then he had his surgery. Team Captain.

    Justin Harrell, Tennessee, 6-5 300, 1.67 split, 24 reps, 30 1/2" vert, 9'0" broad, 4.79 ss, 7.63 3-cone - coming off an injury.

    After that there are four other possible options, two blue collar pluggers from Big 10 powerhouses, and two raw talents who are risks with more upside.

    Antonio Johnson, Mississippi State, 6-3 310, 1.68 split, 28 reps, 29" vert, 9'0" broad, 4.49 ss, 7.51 3-cone - ties up multiple blockers, "emerging talent", JUCO transfer with 5 1-A starts, raw; shorter/lighter Dan Klecko was noted for his ability to change direction, he had 1.71 split, 33 1/2" vert, 9'3" broad, 4.43 ss, 7.52 3-cone.

    Paul Soliai, Utah, 6-4 344, 1.63 split, 29 1/2" vert, 8'7" broad, 4.69 ss, 7.66 3-cone - JUCO transfer, OL moved to DL two years ago, look at the 10 yd split and vertical jump, raw talent to develop. Top rated DE Gaines Adams had a 1.58 split weighing 88 lbs less.

    Quinn Pitc ock, Ohio State, 6-3 299, 1.61 split, 34" vert, 9'4" broad - "blue collar anchor" of the D-line, ties up multiple blockers; he showed well in Senior Bowl scrimmages I've reviewed.

    Jay Alford, Penn State, 6-4 304, 1.71 split, 25 1/2" vert, 8'7" broad, 4.83 ss, 7.81 3-cone - reported most productive big play DT in the Big 10, needs to improve his strength.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2007
  8. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Having looked back at Jarvis Green's draft measurables (Green, Jarvis: LSU, 6-3 272, 4.87/40, 2.80/20, 1.76/10, 31"v, 9'1"b, 4.25ss, 7.52 3-c), I've revisited prospects with similar measurables.

    McDonald, Ray: Florida, 6-4 276* 4.85/40 Compares To: JAMES HALL-Detroit...There might be bigger and quicker defensive ends than McDonald and Hall, but both rely on an explosive first step to surprise a lethargic blocker. McDonald is a bit of a 'tweener, but his added bulk and strength will make him an effective under tackle in a 4-3 alignment, and he is stout enough to play defensive end in a 3-4 formation. Just don't ask him to get to the quarterback on a regular basis, as he lacks pass rush technique and an array of moves. Had an excellent wee at the Senior Bowl.

    Alama-Francis, Ikaika: Hawaii, 6-5 280* 4.78/40 Compares To: TY WARREN-New England...Alama-Francis has a developing body that might grow into a defensive tackle at the next level. Like Warren, he has the upper body strength to stack and control vs. the inside running game and shows a good burst coming off the edge. With his size and speed, utilizing him like Warren in a 3-4 alignment might be the best fit for this emerging talent. A torn pectoral muscle in the 2007 Hula Bowl will possibly hurt his draft stock, though.

    *Combine weigh-ins even though neither ran or did drills there.

    Abiamiri, Victor: Notre Dame, 6-4 267, 4.80/40, 2.75/20, 1.56/10, 25/225 Compares To: JUSTIN TUCK-New York Giants...Both were taught in the same Notre Dame system, where the ends attack off the edge and don't get involved much with in-line action. Abiamiri is a well-built athlete, but needs to show better hand technique in order to consistently beat the bigger blockers. He is a little slow to recognize the play and will then over-run it in attempts to compensate. However, if left isolated on the edge, he has enough functional strength and a short-area burst to pressure the pocket. Abiamiri fell below the 270-275 lb lower limit I set for myself, but watching him at the Senior Bowl, he could grow into the assignment.

    Moore, Jay: Nebraska, 6-5 274, 4.92/40, 2.81/20, 1.59/10, 26/225, 34"v, 9'10"b, 4.35ss, 7.19 3-c Compares To: CHRIS KELSAY-Buffalo...Moore is sort of the Ed McMahon to Adam Carriker's Johnny Carson. He lets others get the recognition and while he might lack the physically imposing body that Carriker has, he compensates with a high motor and outstanding range. Yes, he's a bit of an overachiever and can get out of control when pursuing a quarterback, but if given a clean path to the ball, he will do whatever it takes to make the play. He is the type who won't be your best lineman, but he will create a spark up front. For teams using a 3-4 alignment, Moore's speed and ability to drop back in pass coverage might make him a more inviting target than to those that play with just a base defense. I like him more as a Willie McGinest-sized OLB, but he could bulk up to play DE.

    Pittman, Chase: LSU, 6-5 270, 4.84/40 Positives: Solidly built athlete with marginal definition. Country-strong frame with room for additional growth. Instinctive defender who reads the action well and plays smart, disciplined football. Good strength at the point of attack. Rarely knocked off the ball, even against the double-team. Good overall use of hands to disengage from the block and make the play, even if he doesn't get credit for the tackle. Unselfish team defender. Makes plays when the opportunities is there. Pursues well and doesn't give up on the play.

    Richardson, Jay: Ohio State, 6-6 279, 5.00/40, 2.86/20, 1.65/10, 20/225, 33"v, 9'4"b, 4.54ss, 7.50 3-c
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2007
  9. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    I think Alford from PSU is a possibility in Round 3. He had an excellent
    career. At a large school. Played top-level competition. Lots of film on him out there. He's big enough to play 3-4 de. PSU defense has only had one
    bad game in 3 years. The ND game last year. They were 4-7 in 04 and didn't give up more than 21 points. Spectacular D in 05. 4th qtr at Michigan only
    bad spot. Even this past year 9-4. Look at losses. D played well against
    Wisconsin,Michigan and Ohio ST. PSU was losing 14-6 in Columbus with about
    5 min left and had the ball at mid-field. Threw two int's for td's. Making
    final score deceiving. I'd also consider Ed Johnson as a UDFA or 7th rounder.
    He'd push Wright and L.Smith. Has had some off-field troubles. So, don't
    want to draft him too high. But, worth a look. Could make practice squad.
    Pats value productivity and this kid has produced. Plus, no baggage. On Alford that is.
  10. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    As far as I'm concerned I don't want to draft in order to cut and provide players for another team.

    The only opening is for a good backup NT.

    That means only two guys this draft are candidates that fit an opening.

    Tank Tyler and Paul Soliai. If either is around tither is a good candidate for Day 2 picks of which the Patriots have a bundle.
  11. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    What's the alternative? Refuse to use draft picks? If we don't draft the players, they'll just go to other teams anyway, without the opportunity to evaluate them. How is that better?

    Every year somebody suggest this. A couple years ago it was "What if the Colts pick up Dexter Reid and beat us?" We'll they were right. But who cares? We are allowed 53 football players on this team. We are assured the best 53 players the more players we have to create competition.

    I've never saw the problem with other teams taking players that weren't good enough to make the Patriots. I haven't seen cutting draftees like Jeremy Mincey, TJ Merkerson, Ryan Claridge, Christian Morton, Spencer Nead, Dave Stachelski, Andy Stokes, PK Sam, Kliff Kingsbury, Antwan Womack, or Owen Pochman come back to haunt us.
  12. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    True but not a single one of these players was a sure NFL player. But Morton and Pochman are building fairly good NFL careers.

    For the other ridiculous extreme, lets say we draft a CB and and a Safety, as some have suggested. They turn out to be good, so we cut Hobbs and Sanders to make room or perhaps Geno. Now you have "improved" your team by substituting two good players for two good players.

    Meanwhile your fifth sixth and and seventh LBs are UDFA scrubs. (Mays, Alexander and Woods); as soon as you get a single injury to a LB you're playing a scrub as a starter.

    Stupid? You bet!

    Even if there are "better" Players at CB for your team, another LB or two are more valuable to your Team. Even if NOT the athletic equivalent of the not-drafted, passed over CB/Safety, who has "higher" value.

    You end up with four good players and no scrubs rather than ending up with two good players for two good players, and still have the scrub LBs. as Belioli have said"... it's about building a Team, not accumulating Stars...".

    Any one of those secondary people could go on to a probowl career. Geno was once mentioned as a rising probowler; Hobbs could turn into a probowl corner liked he appeared to be developing into his rookie year, back when he had two hands. Sanders was an underclassman who has come a long way in two years. He could jsaut as easily be a rookie this season. Would you deny that he also might have a shot at a probowl future, down the line?
  13. drpatriot

    drpatriot Rookie

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    This gave me a chuckle.

    Good analysis overall. I definitely think Alama-Francis would be a great fit for our system.
  14. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Me too when I saw it this morning! Alama-Francis is definitely worth a look, I'd hope he slides to day two after his injury.
  15. chunkypony

    chunkypony Rookie

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    Bump for the draft board construction
  16. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is a fine analysis, but all these players are off my board except for Carriker, who I would trade both our firsts to move up for. I am absolutely fine with going into 2007 with one the very best DL's in the league all signed through at least 2008.

    Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright

    I understand that Wright is an RFA next year, but we can tender him $2M and keep him or a first round draft choice.
    ===================================================
    I'm OK with Smith, Thomas and Hill compete for the benchwarmer spots. I would note that the #6 and #7 DL is usually inactive, although this would change if one of them was a ST star.

    If we need competition in camp at DL, I would want a veteran. I've always been fine with a veteran on the bench, active only if there are injuries. I am also fine with having two developmental players inactive.
  17. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    A guy from the Dallas Morning News, Rich Gosselin, was on ESPN radio and when pressed he mentioned Justin Harrell, seems to be a bit of a late riser with some flexibility to play inside and outside. He also added John Houston as a CB as the other round 1 pick.

    Nothing shocks me anymore, nothing shocks me anymore, nothing shocks me anymore, nothing shocks me anymore...

    Position: Defensive Tackle
    Height: 6-4, Weight: 305
    College: Tennessee
    http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2007/harrell_justin

    Compares To: Johnny Jolly, Green Bay. … Jolly might not have played much in 2006, but Harrell has that same explosion off the snap that lets both occupy multiple blockers. Harrell plays with the strength needed to take up space, and while he lacks sustained speed, he does explode off the ball. He needs to develop a better feel for the ball and must be more active with his hands. His main job is clogging and constricting the inside rush lanes, but he must create better separation with his hands if he hopes to improve his pass rushing skills. For a team looking for a plugger in the middle, Harrell could be the answer, if he is recovered from his torn biceps.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2007
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some updates to the Jarvis Green class of DE:

    Greg Peterson, DE, North Carolina Central 6'5" 286 - Reported rising on draft boards by NFLDraftScout.com. 2006: 12 games played, 48 tackles/21 solo, 19.5 tackles for loss for -75 yards, 7.5 sacks for -51 yards, 4 QB hurries, 2 forced fumbles, 2 fumble recoveries, 1 blocked kick, 1 safety, 2 pass breakups in 2006. Impressive straight-line speed at Pro-day:
    Dates: 03/07/17 04/03/07
    Height: 6047
    Weight: 286
    40 Yrd Dash: 4.73
    20 Yrd Dash: 2.72
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.64
    225 Lb. Bench Reps: 21
    Vertical Jump: 32 1/2
    Broad Jump: 8'11"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.51
    3-Cone Drill: 7.84

    Darius Sanders, DE, Oregon 6'4" 273 - converted TE, started to grasp the position his senior year. Reported rising on draft boards by NFLDraftScout.com Pro-day numbers:
    Dates: 03/08/07 03/15/07
    Height: 6041
    Weight: 273
    40 Yrd Dash: 4.87
    20 Yrd Dash: 2.83
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.64
    Vertical Jump: 26 1/2
    Broad Jump: 9'1"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.60
    3-Cone Drill: 7.65

    Mel Purcell, DE, Hawaii 6'5" 289 - All-WAC First Team in 2006, Purcell finished with 54 tackles, 13.5 TFL (-37), 7.5 sacks (-29), and 12 quarterback hurries. Coming off an injury. Pro-day numbers:
    Dates: 03/29/07
    Height: 6046
    Weight: 289
    40 Yrd Dash: 5.19
    20 Yrd Dash: 3.03
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.81
    Vertical Jump: 31
    Broad Jump: 8'11"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.71
    3-Cone Drill: 7.59

    Derrick Jones, DE, Grand Valley State 6'4" 282 - Reported rising on draft boards by NFLDraftScout.com. Nice Pro-day numbers for his size:
    Dates: 03/12/07
    Height: 6037
    Weight: 282
    40 Yrd Dash: 4.74
    20 Yrd Dash: 2.70
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.61
    225 Lb. Bench Reps: 24
    Vertical Jump: 31
    Broad Jump: 9'11"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.55
    3-Cone Drill: 7.34
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