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Building the next dynasty: one fan's misguided plan


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Unless Thomas is going to play ILB, there's not a chance of this happening (assuming Vrabel is not the one replaced).

I'd much rather see them go after Jarrett Johnson.

I see; so you are saying that Adalius Thomas is a valid option, but you would prefer that Colvin continue to start, and Vrabel become a rotational 3rd LBer under those conditions. Is that correct?
 
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I see; so you are saying that Adalius Thomas is a valid option, but you would prefer that Colvin continue to start, and Vrabel become a rotational 3rd LBer under those conditions. Is that correct?

I'd prefer to see Vrabel kept at ILB for Colvin-xx-Vrabel-Thomas than benching Colvin for Thomas-xx-xx-Vrabel.
 
I'd prefer to see Vrabel kept at ILB for Colvin-xx-Vrabel-Thomas than benching Colvin for Thomas-xx-xx-Vrabel.

So you like the idea of signing Adalius Thomas, keeping Colvin at OLB, and keeping Vrable at ILB? I would have no problem with that and in the end it would probably be the most likely scenario if Thomas comes aboard. Signing London Fletcher, and then drafting a young ILB and young OLB would give the Pats a formidable LBing corps once again under those conditions, old on the front end, young on the back end: in '07 Bruschi and Alexander and the rookie (Siler for example) would be rotational players at ILB, and Vrabel and the rookie (Spencer for example) would be rotaional players at OLB. Then in '08 you could have a Fletcher and Siler at ILB with Alexander as a rotational player, and Thomas and Colvin/Vrabel at OLB, with Spencer as pass rush specialist until (potentially) claiming the starting role. If that is what you mean, you make a good point.
 
You know what you do not see from this team? A hit like Tebucky Jones knocking Torry Holt 5 yards out of bounds or like Wilson pasting Wayne and Stokley in the same game. Without Rodney they don't have the enforcer.

A defensive playmaker or an impact player is what I want most this off-season. Maybe the playmaker will be one of the draft's Safeties...and maybe the impact player will be one of the FA LBs. Now is the time to assist our talented DL while we still have them -- give them a difference-maker...
 
So you like the idea of signing Adalius Thomas, keeping Colvin at OLB, and keeping Vrable at ILB? I would have no problem with that and in the end it would probably be the most likely scenario if Thomas comes aboard. Signing London Fletcher, and then drafting a young ILB and young OLB would give the Pats a formidable LBing corps once again under those conditions, old on the front end, young on the back end: in '07 Bruschi and Alexander and the rookie (Siler for example) would be rotational players at ILB, and Vrabel and the rookie (Spencer for example) would be rotaional players at OLB. Then in '08 you could have a Fletcher and Siler at ILB with Alexander as a rotational player, and Thomas and Colvin/Vrabel at OLB, with Spencer as pass rush specialist until (potentially) claiming the starting role. If that is what you mean, you make a good point.

Yes, ultimately this is what I would most like to see happen. And then draft an LB like Siler and Spencer, as you said.
 
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Most of the criticisms leveled at my "plan" have been more than fair. If I could change my original post now, it seems the signing of Mewelde Moore and Wes Welker as RFAs in 2007 may be prohibitively expensive in draft picks. Therefore I would pencil Faulk and T. Brown back in for 2007. In 2008 I would attempt to sign both Moore and Welker as unrestricted free agents, and wave goodbye to Faulk and T. Brown.

I don't have a problem spending a 2nd rounder on Welker in a year in which we have 2 first rounders and perhaps more (because I am firmly in the Asante is tagged and outta here camp). His ST versatility and work ethic and effort make him a BB type football player. I think he loves the non-diva type old school WR.

People underestimate the potential trade value of Cassel (Thank you MoLewis for correcting my spelling- Cassel with 1 L) as trade bait. Seattle traded the equivalent of the #33 pick in the draft for former 6th rdr Matt Hasselbeck, who had barely played a down behind Favre. In 1995 Jacksonville traded a 3rd and 5th rdr to GB for Mark Brunell, a 5th rd pick in 1993 who had barely played a down behind Favre. After Cassel plays well in the preseason again, and a few injuries and other QB debates begin raging in places like Chicago, GB, Detroit and Minnesota, either this season or next Cassel WILL net the Pats a 1st day pick (even though Ryan the Colts fan, with his deep grasp of the Qb position, disagrees- BTW, isn't he late for another marathon sex session with his Peyton Manning bobble head doll?).

Ryan has been around for a while now and as Indy fans go he's OK (albeit it something of a novelty since he chose to be an Indy fan in spite of being a native New Englander - or maybe he did that for spite).

As for the QB in waiting, the whole Hasselback thing only happened because Holmgren drafted him. When he left for Seattle he had an affinity for his young backup and wanted him as his starter in Seattle. Almost lost his new job over that trade when it took 3 years for him to beat the Favre out of his boy. And what happened 14 years ago is probably not much of a barometer in today's NFL. I've read that the model of raising and grooming QB's as a means to add value to the franchise in draft picks is one BB hopes to emulate. But he hasn't had THAT much success identifying those who can even fill the 2 hole reasonably. I think he thinks Matt can do that and more. That represents value here for now to though because it isn't as if BB has batted a thousand, and Matt won't be traded until his replacement is on the roster and has absorbed the system. And that replacement won't be someone who commands $1.5-2M per as a backup, which is what Rattay has been making and likely will continue to in a QB starved market, or Huard would have never needed to move on. If Matt goes it will be in 2008, pre draft, and only if we have a viable alternative who provides BB the same peace of mind at an affordable value price.


To those who took issue with the fact I only listed 51 players on my roster for 2007... the list was not meant to be a complete roster, which is why it fell under the heading KEY PLAYERS IN 2007. Similarly, I have KEY PLAYERS IN 2008 below that, in which the roster is barely fleshed out but for starters and obvious backups.

As for the hangup most have with my suggestion that, although an impossibility due to Colvin's cap hit, I would rather keep TBC over Colvin... Neither is a starter next year according to my plan (Adalius Thomas and Vrabel would be the starting OLBs) and my feeling is that Colvin would have trouble accepting a demotion to a back-up role, and TBC would not. Also, Colvin will be making too much money for a rotational backup player. I do not feel that TBC is a better all-around player than Colvin, just better suited to a backup role. In any case, Colvin is going nowhere so the point is moot.

As far as Colvin vs. Thomas vs. TBC, etc. - this is why I remain comforted in the knowledge it is Belichick and not this fan base who makes the roster decisions. We simply aren't going to corner the market on linebackers. We'll be lucky if we get one of the FAs and one in the draft. Lucky. :rolleyes: ;)
 
The Pats are obviously at a crossroads. Opinions are like @$$holes, as they say: everyone's got one. Here are a few ideas on how to revamp the team this offseason for 2007 while laying a solid foundation for '08. I made some painful choices that I'm sure will offend some people, if any one really intends to waste valuable time reading this. But my intention is to be tough on the aging core of the team, and renovate it with young players as effectively as possible.

Key veteran acquisitions

Adalius Thomas: older than ideal, but will become the veteran leader of the OLBs as the team transitions away from Colvin and Vrabel over the next 2 years and refurbishes with young talent
L. Fletcher-Baker: solid pass coverage skills and ability to read pre-snap keys make Fletcher's height a non-issue.

When do we start getting tough on the aging core?
 
i like it. i think its a little too hopefull, but would be nice though. i still think we need a good BIG possession receiver and a heir to faulk, that would be a solid 3rd down pass catching back. like leonard or even darius walker out of notre dame. i would even say franchise samuel then trade him. call me crazy but we can still keep randal gay for cheap, and i think him and hobbs can do the job if need be. cassel wouldnt be worth much.
 
When do we start getting tough on the aging core?

Hopefully by 2008 the Pats make a transition from Bruschi, Brown, Faulk, Dillon, Harrison, Hawkins, Seau, Vrabel into a new team that will remain competitive for a championship. In 2008 the team will still need a mix of up and coming talent and established but effective vets. I believe in 2008 Thomas and Fletcher will belong to the latter group. Bruschi, Brown, Faulk, Harrison and Dillon will not.
 
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Hopefully by 2008 the Pats make a transition from Bruschi, Brown, Faulk, Dillon, Harrison, Hawkins, Seau, Vrabel into a new team that will remain competitive for a championship. In 2008 the team will still need a mix of up and coming talent and established but effective vets. I believe in 2008 Thomas and Fletcher will belong to the latter group. Bruschi, Brown, Faulk, Harrison and Dillon will not.

I admit they've left themselves without a graceful transition, but I certainly wouldn't want to pay for two expensive over 30 LBs. Thomas will do and they'll just have to suffer some growing pains IMO. Young blood at LB I say.
 
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As far as Colvin vs. Thomas vs. TBC, etc. - this is why I remain comforted in the knowledge it is Belichick and not this fan base who makes the roster decisions. We simply aren't going to corner the market on linebackers. We'll be lucky if we get one of the FAs and one in the draft. Lucky. :rolleyes: ;)

If the Pats want Fletcher and Thomas, they have the means and the selling points to acquire both (they have personal relationships with Fletcher, and they have a defensive system that plays to Thomas' versatile strengths). If they want Spencer and Siler, they are in excellent position to draft both according to most projections (Siler is early rd 2, Spencer late rd 1). If they do not acquire these players, it will more likely be a question of preference, not luck. But RayClay is right in that it is not the Pats profile to throw money at one +30 player, let alone two. So your skepticism is very justified.
 
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Congratulations to all but especially to the thread-starter. This thread is a model of how to put forward an imaginative and unusual set of ideas and have them discussed interestingly and politely. May we have many more such discussions over the next six months!
 
Wes Welker: can do everything that the current version of Troy Brown can do, only he's younger and better right now, with upside as a slot receiver.

I love Wes to death and don't want to see him go. But it may be in the best interest of the team if we go our seperate ways with Wes. I will tell you one thing though, it would kill me to see him in a Patriots uniform, I honestly just can't imagine that.

My personal scouting report on Wes is a sure handed short yardage slot receiver. He doesn't stretch the field or take shots vertically, but when it's 3rd and 5, you like to look for Welker. He has some good punt returns, but he is not explosive on kick or punt returns at all. He likely won't give you any TDs from the return game, and you usually are starting from the 25 after his kick returns.

Like I said, I love Wes and seeing him as a Pat would just suck. We'll take Samuel if you guys take Welker though, how about that?;)
 
Before the Colts won the SB I could actually interact with people here. Now, everytime I post something, I get pounded with insults.

Don't feel bad, I can't interact with people here anymore either.

Congratulations by the way. I would have loved to see Peyton go his whole career never winning the big one, and I think Polian is the biggest a@@hole in the NFL, but I'm happy for Dungy and the fans.
 
Well that's the leading speculation about the disagreement between Belichick and Mangini, isn't it? That Mangini poached Chatham and Dwight, and stuck his nose into the Branch affair.

Who have we signed from Dallas? Zuriel Smith, who got cut. When we were interested in players still on their roster (like Shanle) we exchanged scouts. With Cleveland, we traded for Andre Davis, and they signed McGinest, who got cut. Miami took Eckel, who had been waived, and we took Evans right back when the same happened to him, along with Freeman.

The Jets took players we wanted to keep.

Survey says?!!!

XXX

The leading speculation is that Mangini tried to poach coaches and players while still on the Patriots payroll.

You can't seriously think that BB soured on a friend because he took Matt Chatham, can you? Matt Chatham?! :confused: :eek:

Why isn't BB furious at RC who snatched up far better players in McG and The Druzzer?

And you examples for the Miami ones are terribly flawed because Eckel was the only one of the three that the releasing team had any intention of bringing back. Evans had been gone for a few weeks and Freeman was gone the entire season.
 
So you like the idea of signing Adalius Thomas, keeping Colvin at OLB, and keeping Vrable at ILB? I would have no problem with that and in the end it would probably be the most likely scenario if Thomas comes aboard. Signing London Fletcher, and then drafting a young ILB and young OLB would give the Pats a formidable LBing corps once again under those conditions, old on the front end, young on the back end: in '07 Bruschi and Alexander and the rookie (Siler for example) would be rotational players at ILB, and Vrabel and the rookie (Spencer for example) would be rotaional players at OLB. Then in '08 you could have a Fletcher and Siler at ILB with Alexander as a rotational player, and Thomas and Colvin/Vrabel at OLB, with Spencer as pass rush specialist until (potentially) claiming the starting role. If that is what you mean, you make a good point.

Here's the rub:

Adalius Thomas is the Belichickian wet dream. The Patriots WILL get him, because he's a unique player who they will pay market price for.

The Patriots, with Thomas, can actually run a 3-5-3 defense. Consider a back eight of Colvin, Bruschi, Vrabel, Thomas, Harrison, and three DBs. Not only is the offense presented with the usual 3-4 problem of not knowing where the fourth rusher is coming from, the offense can't be sure who the linebackers are and who the strong safety is. On any given play, a guy like Rodney can rush the passer or play coverage linebacker, because Thomas can drop post-snap and take the safety duties. To go big, BB can replace the FS with TBC or Alexander, confusing the defense as to what positions Rodney, Thomas, and Alexander are playing. BB can bunch Thomas, Vrabel, and Bruschi behind Wilfork and nobody knows who is crashing which gap and who is covering the drop zones. BB can run the old LeBeau zone blitz stunt, with Seymour or even Wilfork dropping into the flat zone and Thomas stunting in to fill their gap.

With the Patriots in GREAT salary cap shape, the only way Thomas doesn't get here is if he doesn't want to play here, a la Derrick Mason. Considering how much fun he'd have playing for Belichick and the chance for rings, that's hard to imagine.
 
With the Patriots in GREAT salary cap shape, the only way Thomas doesn't get here is if he doesn't want to play here, a la Derrick Mason. Considering how much fun he'd have playing for Belichick and the chance for rings, that's hard to imagine.

Interesting post on Thomas. I think a lot of people, myself included, have been wondering if you go after him and sign him, where do Colvin/Vrabel end up playing, does Thomas play OLB or ILB or what, etc. The bottom line is, if BB wants him and if BB thinks he's going to help the team, BB will find a way to get all these guys to play and maximize their talent.
 
Just a word about Cassel...and Brady.

Brady has been remarkably durable. But if he breaks a leg does anyone want Tim Rattay in for the rest of the season? A game or two, maybe...but that's it.

Maybe I'm pretty much alone here, but I think Cassel has Brady-like potential. Let's hold on to him for as long as we can. He could save a season.
 
The leading speculation is that Mangini tried to poach coaches and players while still on the Patriots payroll.

You can't seriously think that BB soured on a friend because he took Matt Chatham, can you? Matt Chatham?! :confused: :eek:

Why isn't BB furious at RC who snatched up far better players in McG and The Druzzer?

And you examples for the Miami ones are terribly flawed because Eckel was the only one of the three that the releasing team had any intention of bringing back. Evans had been gone for a few weeks and Freeman was gone the entire season.

Evans was cut and signed within the week. That position was caught in a numbers crunch so they cut the talented running fullback they thought couldn't block. Their loss, and it serves my point because since he was cut, Saban had no reason to complain about the big no-no of stealing each other's players. Chatham and Dwight weren't cut.

Listen, all we know is that Belichick and Mangini are having an old-school Parcells/Belichick tiff right now, and besides that its all speculation. Arguing about "under contract" and "wanted to keep" is arguing two different slogans on the same side of the same damn coin. Belichick still wanted these players to be on his roster, and Mangini took them.

The Pats have less reason to be unhappy with the Andruzzi and McGinest moves by Crennel because the first was a "lunch-pail" guy at an easily replaceable position (Koppen, Mankins rookie starters on the interior line) and the second was deliberately cut due to age and money, and practically sent with a bow to Cleveland.

Matt Chatham and Tim Dwight were two cheap players the team was likely to have re-signed at thin positions that require a little bit more experience than interior offensive line. Given all the undrafted rookie free agents we saw running around at those two positions in camp and during the season, I think it likely Belichick was highly pissed Mangini had pilfered these two players from him.
 
Here's the rub:

Adalius Thomas is the Belichickian wet dream. The Patriots WILL get him, because he's a unique player who they will pay market price for.

The Patriots, with Thomas, can actually run a 3-5-3 defense. Consider a back eight of Colvin, Bruschi, Vrabel, Thomas, Harrison, and three DBs. Not only is the offense presented with the usual 3-4 problem of not knowing where the fourth rusher is coming from, the offense can't be sure who the linebackers are and who the strong safety is. On any given play, a guy like Rodney can rush the passer or play coverage linebacker, because Thomas can drop post-snap and take the safety duties. To go big, BB can replace the FS with TBC or Alexander, confusing the defense as to what positions Rodney, Thomas, and Alexander are playing. BB can bunch Thomas, Vrabel, and Bruschi behind Wilfork and nobody knows who is crashing which gap and who is covering the drop zones. BB can run the old LeBeau zone blitz stunt, with Seymour or even Wilfork dropping into the flat zone and Thomas stunting in to fill their gap.

With the Patriots in GREAT salary cap shape, the only way Thomas doesn't get here is if he doesn't want to play here, a la Derrick Mason. Considering how much fun he'd have playing for Belichick and the chance for rings, that's hard to imagine.

The question is ...... will the Pats match an absurd amount of dollars that could go to Thomas? I probably would guess no, but who knows. If you're talking fair market value that isn't overly inflated I think the Pats might do that. But I honestly think the money we're about to see tossed around is going to be unprecented by the league and could set records in terms of contracts and the limited quality free agents.
 
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