BSM: Patriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

[Oswlek]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

My guess you haven't watched the Giants for the past year. "Star players" on about the worst team in football. Thanks for the heads up.

P.S You do realize the Giants have had the worst defense in football the past year? Just sayin...

So you would rather have Kevin Boss vs waitng for Gronkowski and Hernandez? Okaaayyyyyyyy. I'll donate $20 to the charity of your choice if you can get this board to agree to that.

I can't tell if you are messing with me because you haven't touched on a single point I've made. It is like I'm arguing that 3+3 = 6 and you say I'm wrong because yellow is a much pettier color. :wha:

Enjoy your day.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

My guess you haven't watched the Giants for the past year. "Star players" on about the worst team in football. Thanks for the heads up.

P.S You do realize the Giants have had the worst defense in football the past year? Just sayin...

So you would rather have Kevin Boss vs waitng for Gronkowski and Hernandez? Okaaayyyyyyyy. I'll donate $20 to the charity of your choice if you can get this board to agree to that.

 

[patfanken]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

If you are so worried about dung publication, why do you continually post?

How does it change "Breer's assertion"? Well with the game on the line, the defense came up with two picks. One forced by Cunningham's pressure. In the second half, it was stop, pick, TD, pick.

That's an improvement from week two. What else happened?

Only one long TD drive surrendered.
One short field stop resulted in a field goal
Three red zone stops

The game is on the line and the defense made the play. That's a difference between "situational football' and stat quoting (Breer) mentioned in the origional article.

Maybe Breer should provide examples where defenses that turnover 10 starters and go with 3 rookies/3 second year players are totally dominant.

Maybe Breer should explain why Miami's defense was even worse since he's quoting the stats.

As Brian Billick said, "quoting stats and believing and backing up assertions for guys who quote stats is for losers".

Also, who exactly has asked you for your patience? Did Mr. Kraft or BB send you a letter asking for time? If so, publish it. I'd like to see it.

AMEN!!!! and AMEN!!!!! :clap:

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I can't tell if you are messing with me because you haven't touched on a single point I've made. It is like I'm arguing that 3+3 = 6 and you say I'm wrong because yellow is a much pettier color. :wha:

Enjoy your day.

I am not "messing" with you. This is review of basic logic and philosphy.

With credible players and a chance to compete for a Super Bowl, the Patroits had two avenues to pursue.

Dump seasoned performers to go young and develop 7th rounders for 2010 or go for a championchip and stockpile picks when they are needed with the stockpiling based on the quality of the draft.

The choice was made to stockpile picks because the team had few spots available and there were not many good players in the pipeline.

The 2006 draft is a great example. It's hard to fathom the grief the Maroney and Jackson picks are given. Why? Well just look at what has transpired from that draft. Few quality players. Based on where we stand today, it looks like only New Orleans had a real good draft that year.

This might be a real epiphany but in order to draft good players there like has to be like umm.....good players to draft. I am also sure that if given the choice, the Pats would have taken the totally suck for several years afterwards payment for a chance to win the Super Bowl in 2007 like the Giants did. That's a very iffy proposition to pull off.

I would also point out that load of quality players from the 2003 draft is due in part to the fact that there was a large number of quality players drafted throughout the league.

See, I'm not a homer.

 

[Kontradiction]

Anyone want to catch me up on what this thread has dwindled down to?

 

[Oswlek]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I am not "messing" with you. This is review of basic logic and philosphy.

With credible players and a chance to compete for a Super Bowl, the Patroits had two avenues to pursue.

Dump seasoned performers to go young and develop 7th rounders for 2010 or go for a championchip and stockpile picks when they are needed with the stockpiling based on the quality of the draft.

The choice was made to stockpile picks because the team had few spots available and there were not many good players in the pipeline.

The 2006 draft is a great example. It's hard to fathom the grief the Maroney and Jackson picks are given. Why? Well just look at what has transpired from that draft. Few quality players. Based on where we stand today, it looks like only New Orleans had a real good draft that year.

This might be a real epiphany but in order to draft good players there like has to be like umm.....good players to draft. I am also sure that if given the choice, the Pats would have taken the totally suck for several years afterwards payment for a chance to win the Super Bowl in 2007 like the Giants did. That's a very iffy proposition to pull off.

I would also point out that load of quality players from the 2003 draft is due in part to the fact that there was a large number of quality players drafted throughout the league.

See, I'm not a homer.

Your contention is that the drafts of 2004, 2006 and 2007 were all void of decent players after the first round?

Just to use your 2006 example, these are a few players who were selected after Chad Jackson in the 2nd round.

Winston Justice
Roman Harper
Daryn Colledge
Marcus McNeil
Greg Jennings
Anthony Fasano
Devin Hester
Richard Marshall
Maurice Jones-Drew
Tony Schefler

I'm not saying these guys are allstars or anything, but they are all contributors, unlike NE's 2nd rounder who is out of the league. A brief perusal of the 2004 draft reveals much the same thing.

As to your claim that NE was locked and loaded and didn't have the room or the inclination to develop younger players, consider this.

Marquise Hill
Dexter Reid
Cedric Cobbs
Christian Morton
Randall Gay

NE had room for 5 post-first round picks on the greatest team in franchise history. Clearly they felt they had the space and the need for youngsters, they just swung and missed. Only Gay is still in the league at the moment, and all but one were defensive selections.

Chad Jackson
David Thomas
Stephen Gostkowski
Ryan O'Callaghan
Le Kevin Smith
Willie Andrews
Pierre Woods

2006 tells a similar story with 7 non-first rounders making the team. Where is this conscious decision to not develop youngsters again?

If you knew the first thing about me and what I think about the team, you'd realize I'd probably be considered a homer over on this board. It irritates the crap out of my how everyone feels the need to be the first to proclaim the next bust, or to give up on a defense that only has two guys with more than 2 years starting in the system. I applaud the Seymour trade because I don't think he was returning and I like that the team wants to maintain success. Same goes for their willingness to push things into the future.

But those years of poor scouting are staring us right in the face and cannot be ignored.

 

[Calciumee]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I'll donate $20 to the charity of your choice if you can get this board to agree to that.

I don't agree, but I will if it goes to a good charity

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I think it is fair to say the defense should have lower expectations than the offense. There were those around here who insisted all offseason that last year's defense was "Top 5" and this one would be better but I wouldn't think they were/are the majority. I think most expected the offense to have to carry the defense at times but I don't think expectations can be low enough for the last 2 weeks to be considered anything but a disaster on D.

I was one of those guys and made it with the expectations that at least two of three former probowlers would be part of it. Warren and Boddin, if perhaps not Burgess would occupy 3 /11 ths of the Defense. They would also provide some additional veteran leadership.

So even then, I said and expected the Defense to get better as the year wore on, just like all BB teams do, because he doesn't hesitate to transition to younger players, and let them take their lumps early. So they can grow and be productive at the end of the season and the playoffs.

There are just more players learning. I haven't seen one location on the Defense where we have an obvious hole without a modicum of talent to try filling it or replacing a failing immature player, except possibly OLB. Even there we have a probowler, TBC, and now two highly thought of youngsters with obvious atletic gifts, for two positions, JC and SC. So its better than it has been since 2007.

If there is such a position, name it.

I still expect this to be a good Defense by the second season.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Your contention is that the drafts of 2004, 2006 and 2007 were all void of decent players after the first round?

Just to use your 2006 example, these are a few players who were selected after Chad Jackson in the 2nd round.

Winston Justice
Roman Harper
Daryn Colledge
Marcus McNeil
Greg Jennings
Anthony Fasano
Devin Hester
Richard Marshall
Maurice Jones-Drew
Tony Schefler

I'm not saying these guys are allstars or anything, but they are all contributors, unlike NE's 2nd rounder who is out of the league. A brief perusal of the 2004 draft reveals much the same thing.

As to your claim that NE was locked and loaded and didn't have the room or the inclination to develop younger players, consider this.

Marquise Hill
Dexter Reid
Cedric Cobbs
Christian Morton
Randall Gay

NE had room for 5 post-first round picks on the greatest team in franchise history. Clearly they felt they had the space and the need for youngsters, they just swung and missed. Only Gay is still in the league at the moment, and all but one were defensive selections.

Chad Jackson
David Thomas
Stephen Gostkowski
Ryan O'Callaghan
Le Kevin Smith
Willie Andrews
Pierre Woods

2006 tells a similar story with 7 non-first rounders making the team. Where is this conscious decision to not develop youngsters again?

If you knew the first thing about me and what I think about the team, you'd realize I'd probably be considered a homer over on this board. It irritates the crap out of my how everyone feels the need to be the first to proclaim the next bust, or to give up on a defense that only has two guys with more than 2 years starting in the system. I applaud the Seymour trade because I don't think he was returning and I like that the team wants to maintain success. Same goes for their willingness to push things into the future.

But those years of poor scouting are staring us right in the face and cannot be ignored.

Your origional statement which was repeated is that we didn't replenish the defense with the draft.

Who on your 2006 listing is a defensive player? Roman Harper plays for New Orleans. I did note they did well in their 2006 draft.

Justice sucks but McNeill is decent. Considering our line the past few years, where does that get us and how would holdout McNeill be helping us today? Would you rather have See Bass?

The only thing Justice has been notable with is letting Osi set a single game sack record.

Would you rather have Crumpler/Gronk/Hernandez or Boss/Schefler/Fasano?

Hester is good or was good. Isn't Tate pretty decent?

I would rather have MJD. I bet the Colts would also rather have him than Addai.

I like Jennings but still would rather have Welker and Moss even if it doesn't count to building a team because we got them through draft trades vs drafting.

 

[dhamz]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

There are just more players learning. I haven't seen one location on the Defense where we have an obvious hole without a modicum of talent to try filling it or replacing a failing immature player, except possibly OLB. Even there we have a probowler, TBC, and now two highly thought of youngsters with obvious atletic gifts, for two positions, JC and SC. So its better than it has been since 2007.

If there is such a position, name it.

I still expect this to be a good Defense by the second season.

Shawn Crabel is a highly thought of youngster with obvious athletic gifts? This is the same guy who was cut the first week of camp and didn't get any other team to bring him in?

 

[NSpatsfan]

Anyone want to catch me up on what this thread has dwindled down to?

Theoretical argument that can be supported by both sides, with endless statistics to back up their argument, that degenerates into a pi$$ing contest between two or more poster, which results in hard feelings, unresolved questions, thread sinks to the bottom of the page...possibly receives one star...