BSM: Patriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I'm not sure, in your weak manner, telling me I'm changing my idea of my position, which I'm not.. Its ridiculous to try to discuss a topic in hand when someone wants to agrue their point without looking at the overall picture..

Buttom line is I have an opinion, backed up with facts that far out weighs anything I've seen posted.. For me, I like to look at the problem, in this case the defense and read about different theories of why they aren't doing so well..


Again.. I'm disappointed, like many others, that the defense looks so bad. My stance is the read and react defense has gone the way of the birds.. I see defensive schemes inplemented in 1 year and there is a noticeable change, esp when its an attacking defense.

You claimed obsolescence and cited to Crennel. Crennel would be proof that the defense is NOT obsolete. You then made a claim about adjustments to the scheme without actually knowing about any, and then went to the Patriots defense being the worst as if that's proof of the scheme issue.

Your stance is simply not supported by the examples you've put forth.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I'm going to have to agree with one of the posters from the article, Brian:

The more I watch other defenses around the league, the more I'm starting to believe that the 3-4 read-react defense that BB runs is simply obsolete and doesn't work within the framework of the new rules geared towards offense.

Excellent post Cousin! 100% correct.

If it's an "excellent" post, and "100% correct," how do you account for the Chiefs?

I've written, myself, about Coach Bill's Advantage being compromised by exposure, but "obsolete"??

 

[mgcolby]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Just because I take issue with the scheme doesn't mean BB is an idiot.. And if you count up the starters on defense, the pats have more #1 and #2 picks than KC.. Not even close..

Are you sure that its not even close? They have 5 1st round picks starting that they drafted and Flowers was a 2nd round pick. That gives them 6 and only Berry is in his first year starting out the group. We have 5 1sts including first year here guy Gerrard Warren. We have 5 2nd's if you include Cunningham and Butler as starters. So we have 4 more 2nd round guys but they are all first year starters.

That is significant to me and goes a long way to pointing at inexperience rather than adjustments.

And the difference?? Crennel...

But what about the Cowboys, Jets or Dolphins? In year 1 of their coach, they changed the scheme to attacking and there is a noticable difference..

Live by the blitz die by the blitz. Look at the Jets against Flacco in week 1. He was killing them on 3rd downs because they kept sending the house. Same with Brady in the 1st half. They didn't send the house on blitzes in the 2nd half, they played zone. The Dolphins also signed one of the best LB's in the league. But that didn't stop Sanchez from chewing them up and scoring 31 points against them. And are you really going to compare the talent and experience of the Dallas D to ours? That is a veteran laden team and they haven't been exactly shutting it down this season either. And I don't think Phillips changed the defensive scheme when he got to Dallas. I think Parcells was running more of a blitz heavy 1 Gap 3-4 more often than he was a 2-Gapping read and react.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

If you are so worried about dung publication, why do you continually post?

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I wished I had seen your post before I had written mine. It would have saved me some typing time.

Then I'm glad you didn't.

You and I'ave had some issues, but that was a damned fine dissertation, sir.

Indeed, there've been many, in this rich, textured Thread.

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Are you sure that its not even close? They have 5 1st round picks starting that they drafted and Flowers was a 2nd round pick. That gives them 6 and only Berry is in his first year starting out the group. We have 5 1sts including first year here guy Gerrard Warren. We have 5 2nd's if you include Cunningham and Butler as starters. So we have 4 more 2nd round guys but they are all first year starters.

That is significant to me and goes a long way to pointing at inexperience rather than adjustments.

Looking at their starting 11 from their own website, you are correct, they have 5 1st rounders and 1 2nd rounder. but the other 5 are undrafted or later round picks..
Pats have 5 1st rounders and 5 2nd rounders starting.. Pats have invested a lot of draft picks on the defense..

Regarding KC, you can see after 3 games how much production Crennel has gotten out of Jackson, Dorsey and Johnson..

Live by the blitz die by the blitz. Look at the Jets against Flacco in week 1. He was killing them on 3rd downs because they kept sending the house. Same with Brady in the 1st half. They didn't send the house on blitzes in the 2nd half, they played zone. The Dolphins also signed one of the best LB's in the league. But that didn't stop Sanchez from chewing them up and scoring 31 points against them. And are you really going to compare the talent and experience of the Dallas D to ours? That is a veteran laden team and they haven't been exactly shutting it down this season either. And I don't think Phillips changed the defensive scheme when he got to Dallas. I think Parcells was running more of a blitz heavy 1 Gap 3-4 more often than he was a 2-Gapping read and react.

True but considering we got beat around like a rag doll against the Ravens in the playoffs and the jets only lost by a point (recalling), I'd rather see the blitz..

I'm not comparing the Dallas defense talent to ours. But prior to Philps coming in, it was a read and react defense. Philps changes it in year 1 and they become a top defense.. My agrument is not about talent but scheme

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

You claimed obsolescence and cited to Crennel. Crennel would be proof that the defense is NOT obsolete. You then made a claim about adjustments to the scheme without actually knowing about any, and then went to the Patriots defense being the worst as if that's proof of the scheme issue.

Your stance is simply not supported by the examples you've put forth.

Actually my "claim" about adjustments came from the word of mouth from two different plaeyrs on two different teams.

I'm not even sure what your point is but if you like to post a valid reason on why you think they pats defense has gone down the hole for the past 4 years, I'd be happy to read.. But the continued posts of "obsolescence" or "not valid" is ridiculous when someone like myself is relaying their opinion..

Bottom line, Pats defense is in a heap of trouble and I'm not sure if its going to be fixed by the time Brady is still here.

 

[Oswlek]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Actually my "claim" about adjustments came from the word of mouth from two different plaeyrs on two different teams.

I'm not even sure what your point is but if you like to post a valid reason on why you think they pats defense has gone down the hole for the past 4 years, I'd be happy to read.. But the continued posts of "obsolescence" or "not valid" is ridiculous when someone like myself is relaying their opinion..

Bottom line, Pats defense is in a heap of trouble and I'm not sure if its going to be fixed by the time Brady is still here.

This is probably the easiest thing to answer I've ever seen on a message board.

The defensive issues over the past 4 years are a three-parter

1) Deterioration of the talent due mostly to age and some attrition.

2) The near complete lack of replenishing the talent since 2004. Of 23 players drafted after the first round from 2006 to 2008, only 5 are still with the team, Crable, Wilhite, Slater, Wheatley and Gost. That is essentially a lost generation of players who should have had the luxury of playing with the greats and hitting their primes just as the older guys were fading away.

On top of that, the best FA signing they had in that time was Artrell Hawkins, unless you want to count AD.

So, from 2007 to the present, the team was hampered by a significant drop in defensive athleticism and limited depth. Now....

3) The defense has been rebuilt on the fly. Only one starter remains from 2007 defense, Wilfork. Hell, only a handful of players of any kind remain: Wilfork, Meriweather, Wright, Sanders. So, only 4 players on the roster have been in the system for more than 2 complete seasons. If you want, we can toss TBC into the mix, but that still means 9 of 11 starters and ~20 defensive players have two or less years of game experience with the team.

The defense is struggling now for the exact opposite reason they've been struggling the past 3 seasons. It has nothing to do with an antiquated system.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I wonder what would happen if the whole of Patsfans put Deus Irae on ignore so we didn't have to read his continual crap.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Disagree.

Respectfully Submitted, Brother Bauer: It's a matter of practice repetitions.

Amended; from the Box_O_Rocks theory of training for entry level personnel.

 

[mgcolby]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Looking at their starting 11 from their own website, you are correct, they have 5 1st rounders and 1 2nd rounder. but the other 5 are undrafted or later round picks..
Pats have 5 1st rounders and 5 2nd rounders starting.. Pats have invested a lot of draft picks on the defense..

Regarding KC, you can see after 3 games how much production Crennel has gotten out of Jackson, Dorsey and Johnson..

Yes, the line has played well. I think some of that is also natural progression. But I don't discount what Crennel has brought either. He is definitely getting more out of the line they did last year, particularly Jackson and Dorsey.

True but considering we got beat around like a rag doll against the Ravens in the playoffs and the jets only lost by a point (recalling), I'd rather see the blitz..

I'm not comparing the Dallas defense talent to ours. But prior to Philps coming in, it was a read and react defense. Philps changes it in year 1 and they become a top defense.. My agrument is not about talent but scheme

I understand what you are saying, but our Defense is so damn young I can't jump on board with your line of thinking. Not saying you are wrong or right, just that I think we would get burned far more often doing that than we would by playing read and react.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. :eat3:

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I guess we have to agree to disagree. :eat3:

I concur

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

This is probably the easiest thing to answer I've ever seen on a message board.

The defensive issues over the past 4 years are a three-parter

1) Deterioration of the talent due mostly to age and some attrition.

2) The near complete lack of replenishing the talent since 2004. Of 23 players drafted after the first round from 2006 to 2008, only 5 are still with the team, Crable, Wilhite, Slater, Wheatley and Gost. That is essentially a lost generation of players who should have had the luxury of playing with the greats and hitting their primes just as the older guys were fading away.

On top of that, the best FA signing they had in that time was Artrell Hawkins, unless you want to count AD.

So, from 2007 to the present, the team was hampered by a significant drop in defensive athleticism and limited depth. Now....

3) The defense has been rebuilt on the fly. Only one starter remains from 2007 defense, Wilfork. Hell, only a handful of players of any kind remain: Wilfork, Meriweather, Wright, Sanders. So, only 4 players on the roster have been in the system for more than 2 complete seasons. If you want, we can toss TBC into the mix, but that still means 9 of 11 starters and ~20 defensive players have two or less years of game experience with the team.

The defense is struggling now for the exact opposite reason they've been struggling the past 3 seasons. It has nothing to do with an antiquated system.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to grasp the big picture nor understand the philosophy or understand the entire timeline.

The 2006 draft was not good with Maroney and Jackson. Have you looked at the four years that is the 2006 draft? The only team that produced meaningful multiple players was New Orleans.
It's much better to trade picks than to draft more duds.

In 2007, the draft produced two of the top five receivers in the league. They just were not drafted.

The 2006/7/8 rosters didn't have many spots because the core players were still capable of competing for championchips. By 2009, it was no longer the case. In the end, the Pats had several picks to choose players in quality drafts.

 

[Oswlek]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Unfortunately, you don't seem to grasp the big picture nor understand the philosophy or understand the entire timeline.

The 2006 draft was not good with Maroney and Jackson. Have you looked at the four years that is the 2006 draft? The only team that produced meaningful multiple players was New Orleans.
It's much better to trade picks than to draft more duds.

In 2007, the draft produced two of the top five receivers in the league. They just were not drafted.

The 2006/7/8 rosters didn't have many spots because the core players were still capable of competing for championchips. By 2009, it was no longer the case. In the end, the Pats had several picks to choose players in quality drafts.

Ahhhhh....

Thanks for aiding me in my ability to see the big picture.

Tell me, how many of those 2004 draft picks initially made the team? How many were significant contributors 3 years later?

How about doing the same exercise for 2006 and 2007?

If the guys made the roster as a rookie, clearly there was room for them. They just didn't develop. 2007 was a tough year for a rookie to make the team so they chose to go in a "throw crap against the wall" direction and misfired on every single pick after their first rounder.

Also, in what way did the Welker and Moss trades replenish the aging devensive personnel?

You might want to actually understand the point the poster is making, as well as their posting history before engaging in such combative discourse.

BTW, here is the original post I made when discussing NE's drafting. Tell me again how I don't understand, please.

I completely agree with the theme. But I have a couple things to add/disagree with.

First off, the lousy drafting began in 2004. The team knew they needed some new blood at safety, with absolutely nothing on the roster except Rodney and Geno. So they went out and grabbed Guss Scott and Dexter Reid. I still think Scott was working himself into being a decent player in the PS, but his injury completely derailed his career. He was a mess the next year and didn't even make the team. Reid was an abomination who played purely because no one else could and thought the roster spot was his. It was a similar story to the backup QB from last year, who was elevated to backup in the midst of Brady's injury but never really earned his position.

Other than the first rounders (Wilfork, Watson) the other guys are one of the worst drafts you will ever see.

Marquise Hill
Guss Scott
Dexter Reid
Cedric Cobbs
PK Sam
Christian Morton

You seem down on 2005, but it was actually pretty decent. Mankins is a A+ is there ever was one, an immediate starter who is a top 5 player at his position within 2 years. Can't ask for more than that at #32. They also got Kaczur, Hobbs, Sanders and Cassel. 4 guys who would start for an 18-1 team and another who would QB an 11-5 season and net the team a 2nd round pick (from an original 7th). The problem with this draft is, aside from Mankins none of the guys are plus players.

The next three years it was crap, crap and more crap. 2007 saw them make two marvelous trades, so I'd gladly see them do it again. But that doesn't change the fact that these were there non-first rounders those 3 years.

2006
Chad Jackson
David Thomas
Garrett Mills
Stephen Gostkowski
Ryan O'Callaghan
Jeremy Mincey
Dan Stevenson
Le Kevin Smith
Willie Andrews

2007
Kareem Brown
Clint Oldenburg
Justin Rogers
Mike Richardson
Justise Hairston
Corey Hilliard
Oscar Lua
Mike Elgin

2008
Terrence Wheatley
Shawn Crable
Kevin O'Connell
Jonathan Wilhite
Matthew Slater
Bo Ruud

Somewhere along the lines, NE's scouting went to hell and/or the BB, Pioli approach lost touch. Of 23 players drafted after the first round, only 4 are still with the team. Read that again. Of 23 players drafted after the first round from 2006 to 2008, only 4 are still with the team. And the odds are the team will be moving on from at least one, if not two of those remaining 4 this camp. This is a stunning amount of futility for an obviously good coach who seemed he could do no wrong in 2002 and 2003.

All that said, these last two drafts appear to be the filp side of the coin. As remarkable as 06-08 for there strength. Hopefully this isn't their, once a decade two year run.

The one thing I will say about this draft is that it doesn't quite have the later round flash of the 2009 crop. Both Pryor and Edelman had already made a name for themselves by now, but not a single guy past Zoltan has made an impression yet. That is the mark of great scouting, IMO. When you can have at least one 6th or 7th pick make good contributions.

EDIT: after this was posted, Deaderick made the team, so NE gets a check in that area for 2010 as well. On top of that, Crable's return brings the number of guys still on the team to 5. I still think the team was looking to move away from Wilhite or Wheatley, but Bodden's injury gave them a year's grace period.

Oddly enough, despite the horrific latter round drafting from 2006-2008, NE has a excellent track record of harvesting the UDFA mines.

Randall Gay, Mike Wright, BJGE, Gary Guyton, Pierre Woods, Eric Alexander - these guys all made contributions, often right out of the gate. How they can find a good player as an UDFA and whiff on 20 picks over three years I will never know. The UDFA list keeps growing too, with Hoyer and some strong roster potential in Kyle Love and Dane Fletcher.

In any event, barring a lockout, this team looks like 2011-2014 is going to be a hell of a ride. More than we could ever ask for considering how much we were treated to in the last decade... despite some lousy scouting. :eat3:

 

[Off The Grid]

ROCKING Insight, Brother Oz, though I would've mentioned the OCEAN of Quality Talent we've brought in, ere the last 2 years.

PitPat??

In the Immortal Words of The Great One:

 

[Oswlek]

ROCKING Insight, Brother Oz, though I would've mentioned the OCEAN of Quality Talent we've brought in, ere the last 2 years.

You mean like this

All that said, these last two drafts appear to be the filp side of the coin. As remarkable as 06-08 for there strength. Hopefully this isn't their, once a decade two year run.

 

[Off The Grid]

You mean like this

Quite. But I was referring to the post that PitPat so unwisely attacked.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Ahhhhh....

Thanks for aiding me in my ability to see the big picture.

Tell me, how many of those 2004 draft picks initially made the team? How many were significant contributors 3 years later?

How about doing the same exercise for 2006 and 2007?

If the guys made the roster as a rookie, clearly there was room for them. They just didn't develop. 2007 was a tough year for a rookie to make the team so they chose to go in a "throw crap against the wall" direction and misfired on every single pick after their first rounder.

Also, in what way did the Welker and Moss trades replenish the aging devensive personnel?

You might want to actually understand the point the poster is making, as well as their posting history before engaging in such combative discourse.

BTW, here is the original post I made when discussing NE's drafting. Tell me again how I don't understand, please.

How did Moss and Welker replenish personnel?

Are they on the team and playing and producing? So getting two of the top five receivers in the 2007 draft doesn't count because they came via trade vs drafting?

Huh?

The players you listed in the draft classes is interesting.

Where were all the open roster spots in those years? You would sacrifice a chance at a Lombardi to develop 10 5th-7th round players for 2011?

Also, a review of late round selections in those years shows very few "diamonds" in the rough. You don't seem to entertain the possibility that the reason we don't have contributing late round picks from those years is due to the fact that weak draft years have few if any available.

Your point would have merit if many late round picks became accomplished players.

 

[Oswlek]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

How did Moss and Welker replenish personnel?

Are they on the team and playing and producing? So getting two of the top five receivers in the 2007 draft doesn't count because they came via trade vs drafting?

Huh?

The players you listed in the draft classes is interesting.

Where were all the open roster spots in those years? You would sacrifice a chance at a Lombardi to develop 10 5th-7th round players for 2011?

Also, a review of late round selections in those years shows very few "diamonds" in the rough. You don't seem to entertain the possibility that the reason we don't have contributing late round picks from those years is due to the fact that weak draft years have few if any available.

Your point would have merit if many late round picks became accomplished players.

This is the very definition of ignoring what I wrote so you don't have to admit your error.

This entire thread is a response to NE's defensive issues, is it not? Twice now, I've specifically stated that Welker/Moss did nothing to replenish defensive personnel, which is about as much of a truth as there is.

As to the lack of talent in the latter rounds, you may have a point, but I highly doubt that there wasn't anyone worthwhile after the 4th round in 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2008. Here is the draft of the team NE lost to in 2007, for example.

1st round, #20 overall--Aaron Ross, CB, Texas
2nd round, #51--Steve Smith, WR, USC
3rd round, #81--Jay Alford, DT, Penn State
4th round, #116--Zak DeOssie, LB, Brown
5th round, #153--Kevin Boss, TE, Western Oregon
6th round, #189--Adam Koets, T, Oregon State
7th round, #224--Michael Johnson, S, Arizona
7th round, #250--Ahmad Bradshaw, RB, Marshall

Boss and Bradshaw have contributed more to NY than every single non 2nd rounder NE has drafted since 2006. And they were selected in what is supposed to be the worst draft class in the past decade.

Hell, a ridiculous amount of 2009 picks are already released, so clearly that class wasn't anything to write home about. Yet NE somehow found Edelman and Pryor.

Your point doesn't hold water. NE's drafting was lousy from 2004-2008 after the first round, and that is why NE had to basically start over again on defense these past two seasons.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

This is the very definition of ignoring what I wrote so you don't have to admit your error.

This entire thread is a response to NE's defensive issues, is it not? Twice now, I've specifically stated that Welker/Moss did nothing to replenish defensive personnel, which is about as much of a truth as there is.

As to the lack of talent in the latter rounds, you may have a point, but I highly doubt that there wasn't anyone worthwhile after the 4th round in 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2008. Here is the draft of the team NE lost to in 2007, for example.



Boss and Bradshaw have contributed more to NY than every single non 2nd rounder NE has drafted since 2006. And they were selected in what is supposed to be the worst draft class in the past decade.

Hell, a ridiculous amount of 2009 picks are already released, so clearly that class wasn't anything to write home about. Yet NE somehow found Edelman and Pryor.

Your point doesn't hold water. NE's drafting was lousy from 2004-2008 after the first round, and that is why NE had to basically start over again on defense these past two seasons.

My guess you haven't watched the Giants for the past year. "Star players" on about the worst team in football. Thanks for the heads up.

P.S You do realize the Giants have had the worst defense in football the past year? Just sayin...

So you would rather have Kevin Boss vs waitng for Gronkowski and Hernandez? Okaaayyyyyyyy. I'll donate $20 to the charity of your choice if you can get this board to agree to that.