BSM: Patriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

[Oswlek]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

At some point you have to look to the future, and you can only hang onto roster spots for older players that contribute less and less each year for so long. I applaud Belichick for having the guts to start fresh and try to build another great defense from the ground up. It won't be instantaneous, and at the very least we need to wait until the last few weeks of this season to see how they are playing to give them a fair grade since they have so many young players.

Bingo. The issue isn't that the old guys are gone, it is that NE drafted so poorly from 2004-2008 that it necessitated a massive youth movement.

In the NFL, there is a very minor difference between getting burnt and making a big play. Just look at Chung on the long TD this past week. He reacts a split second sooner and that is a highlight reel hit and a momentum killing play. These kids have talent, now they need seasoning, which unfortunately only comes with time.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

That's quite the leap of faith built on a lot of speculation, only to be one game better than they currently stand. By "having" these players, do you mean in addition to players they currently have? For instance, Vrabel was part of the trade that yielded Chung, so if the Pats still had Vrabel, we wouldn't have the young safety. I prefer Chung to a 35-year-old OLB; loved Vrabel, but you have to move on at some point.

And not trading Seymour would only have assured his presence for 2009. They'd still have to face his free agency this past offseason (as Oakland did), at the same time Wilfork, Bodden, Banta-Cain, Faulk, Neal, Watson, Green also became UFAs. And they briefly used the franchise tag on Wilfork, so they wouldn't have had it to use on Seymour. I think Seymour was a goner after '09 anyway.

I blame the Patriots for getting little from the '06 and '07 drafts, creating the talent void that the '09 and '10 drafts now have to fill.

Your assertions are inaccurate, and they'd involve getting into the trades again, so I'm not going down that path. Suffice it to say that Vrabel and Seymour could still be on the team without any issues, and Hobbs could have been retained without a huge contract. As for the speculation, that's obviously what it is, which is why I used the word "probably".

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

...At some point you have to look to the future, and you can only hang onto roster spots for older players that contribute less and less each year for so long. I applaud Belichick for having the guts to start fresh and try to build another great defense from the ground up. It won't be instantaneous, and at the very least we need to wait until the last few weeks of this season to see how they are playing to give them a fair grade since they have so many young players.

I forgot to comment on this. Seymour had an 8 sack year prior to being traded, and Hobbs was the team's #1 CB. the "contribute less and less" certainly didn't apply to either of them.

 

[JMarr]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I'm not going to revisit those trades, since my position on them is already well known. However, having Seymour, Hobbs and Vrabel on this team right now would solve the DE problem, the CB problem and a significant portion of the OLB problem, and this team would probably be 3-0 and comfortably ensconced at the top of the AFC favorites list. You can't expect people to just muddle along like sheep when you ask for patience because the team is young, when the reason the team is young is that the staff is jettisoning off the veterans who could have alleviated the problem.

I don't know--having Seymour would be huge, but who's to say he wasn't part of the lockerroom "problem" that seems to have started developing at the time of the trade? I agree that the trade looks horrible in retrospect (but then again I don't give a toss about salary cap/financial issues either).

Hobbs? Glad he's gone. Aside from Special Teams, he was hurting us as much as Butler IMO. Way below average CB. Who knows what his attitude/team commitment was at the time as well?

I don't know how well or poorly Vrabel is currently playing, but I agree with you that throwing him in that trade looks bad now, just from the leadership/chemistry aspect alone.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I don't know--having Seymour would be huge, but who's to say he wasn't part of the lockerroom "problem" that seems to have started developing at the time of the trade? I agree that the trade looks horrible in retrospect (but then again I don't give a toss about salary cap/financial issues either).

Hobbs? Glad he's gone. Aside from Special Teams, he was hurting us as much as Butler IMO. Way below average CB. Who knows what his attitude/team commitment was at the time as well?

I don't know how well or poorly Vrabel is currently playing, but I agree with you that throwing him in that trade looks bad now, just from the leadership/chemistry aspect alone.

People here used Hobbs as a whipping boy. That was silly, because Hobbs wasn't the problem. The play at corner since he's been gone should have been more than enough to demonstrate that. Sadly, people rarely re-think past opinions.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

One out of four situations doesn't prove a point wrong.. and on the one, I made a valid point about adjustments to the scheme. Breer mentioned this last night on Comcast saying that two opposing teams stated the pats didn't make adjustments.

You also forgot the jets at 2-1.. And all 4 teams have a better defense than Pats.

You can argue that the Chiefs' defense last year is where the Pats' defense is this year. The Chiefs seem to be a year ahead of the Pats in a defense rebuilding process. We went into this year knowing this team was rebuilding.

Also, either Breer is wrong or you heard him wrong since Dustin Keller of the Jets said the Pats did make adjustments but they were able to make better adjustments to counter them.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I don't know--having Seymour would be huge, but who's to say he wasn't part of the lockerroom "problem" that seems to have started developing at the time of the trade? I agree that the trade looks horrible in retrospect (but then again I don't give a toss about salary cap/financial issues either).

I'm fine with the Seymour trade.

Hobbs? Glad he's gone. Aside from Special Teams, he was hurting us as much as Butler IMO. Way below average CB. Who knows what his attitude/team commitment was at the time as well?

Hobbs is absolutely NOT a "way below average CB". He's a fairly decent CB, great kick returner but has durability concerns. Going into the season with Bodden, McCourty and Butler I see no reason why anyone would have wanted Hobbs to be on the team aside from taking playing time from the higher upside kids.

I don't know how well or poorly Vrabel is currently playing, but I agree with you that throwing him in that trade looks bad now, just from the leadership/chemistry aspect alone.

I think it's a pretty huge and inaccurate assumption that Vrabel was a "throw in". I'll trade Vrabel and Cassel for Chung 100 times out of 100. Although you judge the trade on the knowns at the time, the pick (and not Chung) is absolutely the right move especially in a deeper draft.

 

[Snapper]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Your assertions are inaccurate, and they'd involve getting into the trades again, so I'm not going down that path. Suffice it to say that Vrabel and Seymour could still be on the team without any issues, and Hobbs could have been retained without a huge contract. As for the speculation, that's obviously what it is, which is why I used the word "probably".

My assertions are inaccurate, but your speculation is justified because you used the qualifier "probably"? Got it.

I think you're nuts to think Seymour could be still here without any issues, unless by that you mean the Patriots were willing to bid over all other suitors for his services. Either that or use the franchise tag on him, and be willing to let Wilfork hit free agency. The only other option was to have one of them under contract at the start of 2009, which just wasn't the reality when they made the trade.

The only one I agree with you on is Hobbs, but then I was a fan of Hobbs. Thought he got a bum rap in New England.

 

[51Hits]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Speaking of Chung, what is it people see that makes him so untradeable? I constantly hear people talk like he's a stud. He's good for run suppot, but right now he's looking like a future Roy Williams in terms of coverage skills. Just saying, I don't where people are high on him so much. I like him too, but he's far from the immortal roster spot people act like he is so far.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

My assertions are inaccurate, but your speculation is justified because you used the qualifier "probably"? Got it.

I think you're nuts to think Seymour could be still here without any issues, unless by that you mean the Patriots were willing to bid over all other suitors for his services. Either that or use the franchise tag on him, and be willing to let Wilfork hit free agency. The only other option was to have one of them under contract at the start of 2009, which just wasn't the reality when they made the trade.

The only one I agree with you on is Hobbs, but then I was a fan of Hobbs. Thought he got a bum rap in New England.

Funny.... I'm pretty sure Seymour got franchised in Oakland and is still playing there. Hence the "Inaccurate". And, as I've pointed out in the Seymour threads in the past, using Wilfork is a copout. The Patriots could have both Seymour and Wilfork on the team today had they chosen to make it so. They went in another direction. The "young" defense is a product of such decisions. Now, let's move on.

And if you don't think that having a better DE/pass rush, OLB and RCB would have probably resulted in a Patriots win against the Jets, you're entitled to that opinion. I believe it probably would have resulted in just such a thing.

 

[mgcolby]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Yes Crennel runs the same 2 gap.. I expect its his in game adjustments that make them a better team..

Ryan in year 1 had pretty much the same team except a player or two.. plus he changed Revis from Zone to Man to Man (actually he puts Revis on the opponents best WR)

And u didn't mention Nolan or Philps.. Two coaches who went in with the same personel and changed their philosphy and now have top rated defenses.

Of course you do. Because everything is about adjustments and clearly BB is an idiot when it comes to this. Talent, experience and execution surely has nothing to do with it. And surely all the 1st round picks on the defensive side of the ball in KC have nothing to do with it? Most of which were top 10 picks, I believe Hali is the only first rounder on their defense that was taken outside of the top 10.

The KC defense has been young and talented since Herm's last season as HC, although that was mostly in the secondary and some of that has been turned over since Pioli/Haley's arrival. Crennel, who is obviously a very good DC inherited a very strong group of talented players. And its not as if this defense wasn't playing the 2-Gap 3-4 last season.

I have to ask this question: Why is that people on this board throw out strong opinions based on things that they clearly haven't thought through?

For instance the KC Chiefs defense last year with inexperienced 3-4 personnel allowed 34,13 and 34 points through its first 3 games for a grand total of 81. Sounds kind of familiar no? And that was with Mike F'n Vrabel at OLB.

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

You can argue that the Chiefs' defense last year is where the Pats' defense is this year. The Chiefs seem to be a year ahead of the Pats in a defense rebuilding process. We went into this year knowing this team was rebuilding.

Also, either Breer is wrong or you heard him wrong since Dustin Keller of the Jets said the Pats did make adjustments but they were able to make better adjustments to counter them.

Not sure who Breer talked to but he mentioned it. And if Keller is right, then it really shows we should have gone after Crennel.

I'm not so sure KC is a year ahead but the point is, they are better.. And to me, its because of Crennel.. But the other 4 instances I provided,their coach came in and turned their defense around.

 

[mgcolby]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

You can argue that the Chiefs' defense last year is where the Pats' defense is this year. The Chiefs seem to be a year ahead of the Pats in a defense rebuilding process. We went into this year knowing this team was rebuilding.

Also, either Breer is wrong or you heard him wrong since Dustin Keller of the Jets said the Pats did make adjustments but they were able to make better adjustments to counter them.

I wished I had seen your post before I had written mine. It would have saved me some typing time.

 

[Spiral]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

However, having Seymour, Hobbs and Vrabel on this team right now would solve the DE problem, the CB problem and a significant portion of the OLB problem, and this team would probably be 3-0 and comfortably ensconced at the top of the AFC favorites list.

I respect your opinion, but I doubt that having Ellis Hobbs on this team would solve our CB problem.

 

[Snapper]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Funny.... I'm pretty sure Seymour got franchised in Oakland and is still playing there. Hence the "Inaccurate". And, as I've pointed out in the Seymour threads in the past, using Wilfork is a copout. The Patriots could have both Seymour and Wilfork on the team today had they chosen to make it so. They went in another direction. The "young" defense is a product of such decisions. Now, let's move on.

What does Seymour getting franchised in Oakland prove? That has absolutely nothing to do with my assertions. Oakland had one tag and used it on Seymour. The Patriots had one tag and used it on Wilfork. Had the trade never happened, the Patriots would still have just the one tag.

Yes, any team can "choose" to keep all their players if they're willing to pay them all exactly what they want. Is this the argument you're making?

Seymour twice before held out, and twice got rewarded for it. The Patriots had good reason to suspect he'd be difficult to re-sign. Short of giving Seymour the moon, he was gone. Oh, sorry, I mean "probably" gone.

 

[JMarr]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I think it's a pretty huge and inaccurate assumption that Vrabel was a "throw in". I'll trade Vrabel and Cassel for Chung 100 times out of 100. Although you judge the trade on the knowns at the time, the pick (and not Chung) is absolutely the right move especially in a deeper draft.

Using the term "throw in" because that's essentially what it was--Pioli had us by the b@lls because of the urgency of getting rid of Cassel after we tagged him, plus the bonus due to Vrabel and BB's wanting to respect him by not cutting him.

We can speculate all we want about whether the trade ultimately would or would not have happened without Vrabel or what pick we would have ended up getting had it not, but I won't argue with you if your main point is that Chung>Vrabel on this team going forward.

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I'm not going to play "watch mcsully move the goalposts", but thanks.



It only takes one to prove that statement wrong, and I didn't even point out that the Patriots were #5 in scoring defense last year with a defense that was nowhere near that level of talent. If you want to continue now that your argument is dead, that's on you. I'm done with this.

I'm not sure, in your weak manner, telling me I'm changing my idea of my position, which I'm not.. Its ridiculous to try to discuss a topic in hand when someone wants to agrue their point without looking at the overall picture..

Buttom line is I have an opinion, backed up with facts that far out weighs anything I've seen posted.. For me, I like to look at the problem, in this case the defense and read about different theories of why they aren't doing so well..


Again.. I'm disappointed, like many others, that the defense looks so bad. My stance is the read and react defense has gone the way of the birds.. I see defensive schemes inplemented in 1 year and there is a noticeable change, esp when its an attacking defense.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

It's clearly an issue of talent, not scheme.

Disagree.

Respectfully Submitted, Brother Bauer: It's a matter of Time.

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Of course you do. Because everything is about adjustments and clearly BB is an idiot when it comes to this. Talent, experience and execution surely has nothing to do with it. And surely all the 1st round picks on the defensive side of the ball in KC have nothing to do with it? Most of which were top 10 picks, I believe Hali is the only first rounder on their defense that was taken outside of the top 10.

Just because I take issue with the scheme doesn't mean BB is an idiot.. And if you count up the starters on defense, the pats have more #1 and #2 picks than KC.. Not even close..

For instance the KC Chiefs defense last year with inexperienced 3-4 personnel allowed 34,13 and 34 points through its first 3 games for a grand total of 81. Sounds kind of familiar no? And that was with Mike F'n Vrabel at OLB.

And the difference?? Crennel...

But what about the Cowboys, Jets or Dolphins? In year 1 of their coach, they changed the scheme to attacking and there is a noticable difference..

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Exquisite.

That's the thing, though. And perhaps I was unclear.

The skill and talent is clearly there. Whether it can be nurtured and coached to its full potential remains to be seen. But this defense has been completely overhauled, and the youth movement has been compounded further by the loss of two of the few remaining vets in Bodden and Warren.

There very well may be talent deficiencies in spots, but I don't think the defense we're seeing now (i.e. a not very good one) is the product of an outdated scheme, lack of talent, or poor coaching. The impression that I get from watching the games and reading analyses is simply that this is a very young defense with minimal chemistry and a lot of guys who are thrust into the spotlight who perhaps haven't got a terribly firm grasp on the system and responsibilities as of yet.

And frankly, these struggles won't bother me so much if they are able to come together as I expect and hope. I can see our defense being like football's version of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (if everything goes as planned, of course).

I'm well aware that this is a "glass half full" perspective, but I find it's a lot more enjoyable to have this perspective... even if there's a little cognitive dissonance involved at times.

Finally, thank our lord and savior BB drafted McCourty.

Mmmmm....Cognitive Dissonance...Huhhhhhhhhhhhhh...