BSM: Patriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

[patfanken]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Apparently, Bruce doesn't realize that the defense has been working together, in one way or another, for more than 6 months as opposed to just 3 weeks. It's not as if that's forever, or anything, but ignoring that makes his comment look worse than Breer's.

That is way overstating a fact to make an assumptive position. In fact it really isn't a fact at all, since its really only been just 2 months that the the defense is even in pads together. You want to count the 5 days they had at the mini camps DI -

The guy made a reasonable point. Many of the guys that we hold up as examples of excellence, also played on 2 very mediocre-bad teams before they became the players we hoped.

Do you really think you can see into the future and determine that so many of these young players are going to be failures? Or make the assumption after 3 games that the defensive transition is a failure? That's the height of Hubris

 

[emoney_33]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

How do these aggressive top defenses fair against the best offenses in the league?

Like the Jets giving up 30+ to the Pats and Colts, GB giving up 51 to Arizona, Pit giving up 36 to GB, Dallas giving up 34 to the Vikes...

The Ravens defense was pretty consistent but it didn't win a championship.

There is simply not 1 single thing that wins championships, and the 2-gap system is definitely not "obsolete".

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

The quote I believe is, "If a player has talent and isn't successful, either he doesn't want to be successful or I have failed as a coach."

Thanks, that would make more sense than the one I posted. This one, at least, gives BB an out

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

That's the thing, though. And perhaps I was unclear.

The skill and talent is clearly there. Whether it can be nurtured and coached to its full potential remains to be seen. But this defense has been completely overhauled, and the youth movement has been compounded further by the loss of two of the few remaining vets in Bodden and Warren.

There very well may be talent deficiencies in spots, but I don't think the defense we're seeing now (i.e. a not very good one) is the product of an outdated scheme, lack of talent, or poor coaching. The impression that I get from watching the games and reading analyses is simply that this is a very young defense with minimal chemistry and a lot of guys who are thrust into the spotlight who perhaps haven't got a terribly firm grasp on the system and responsibilities as of yet.

And frankly, these struggles won't bother me so much if they are able to come together as I expect and hope. I can see our defense being like football's version of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (if everything goes as planned, of course). I'm well aware that this is a "glass half full" perspective, but I find it's a lot more enjoyable to have this perspective... even if there's a little cognitive dissonance involved at times.

Finally, thank our lord and savior BB drafted McCourty.

My gut feeling is it's mostly a case of too much (young talent) at too many positions though, I'm still somewhat concerned over the performance woes of this defense over the last couple of years.

I used to go into games believing that BB gave this team a decided coaching advantage over any offensive mind that stood across the field from him. During these times I felt that this team (defense especially) would win every game it played as a result.

It's been so long since I have felt this way that I wonder if that "it" factor is gone. In fact, most often times I feel the exact opposite; that BB won't be able to coach this defense to win the game for us.

I sure hope that changes, and soon, because we only have Brady for a limited time. Would be a shame if the defense holds him back.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

That is way overstating a fact to make an assumptive position. In fact it really isn't a fact at all, since its really only been just 2 months that the the defense is even in pads together. You want to count the 5 days they had at the mini camps DI -

The guy made a reasonable point. Many of the guys that we hold up as examples of excellence, also played on 2 very mediocre-bad teams before they became the players we hoped.

Do you really think you can see into the future and determine that so many of these young players are going to be failures? Or make the assumption after 3 games that the defensive transition is a failure? That's the height of Hubris

I agree. The offseason isn't the same as in season play. The Pats have two rookies starting (Cunningham could be three) and they were not drafted until the end of April and were limited in what they could do until they signed their contract and ended their school commitments. Those guys really had very limited contact with the rest of the team until 2-3 months ago. These guys are just learning how to get used to the NFL too.

The Pats have six starters in their first or second year (Brace, Spikes, McCourty, Arrington/Butler, Chung, and Ninkovitch/Cunningham). Most of these guys have very limited NFL experience either as a starter or a back up. It is going to take them time to work together as a cohesive unit.

 

[TheComeback]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Apparently, Bruce doesn't realize that the defense has been working together, in one way or another, for more than 6 months as opposed to just 3 weeks. It's not as if that's forever, or anything, but ignoring that makes his comment look worse than Breer's.

So has every other team in the NFL. Believe it or not, it can take a lot longer than 6 months for 11 (actually, more like 20-25) people to gel when they aren't playing actual games, aren't even physically engaging each other during practice, and aren't in real game situations against real opponents.

That doesn't even take into account the fact that before training camp, they weren't really "together" at all but were at home doing whatever it is they do during the offseason. Construing a couple of offseason minicamp practices for a limited number of players as the defense being together for "6 months" is so disingenuous it's not even funny. Don't get me started on "working out" together in the offseason either. Not all the guys are there, and even if they were, they aren't playing football or even practicing football for the most part, they're just working out.

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

1.) Ryan doesn't have the same personnel as Mangini, and Revis was still developing.

2.) Crennel runs a 2-gap system like Belichick.

Yes Crennel runs the same 2 gap.. I expect its his in game adjustments that make them a better team..

Ryan in year 1 had pretty much the same team except a player or two.. plus he changed Revis from Zone to Man to Man (actually he puts Revis on the opponents best WR)

And u didn't mention Nolan or Philps.. Two coaches who went in with the same personel and changed their philosphy and now have top rated defenses.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

That is way overstating a fact to make an assumptive position. In fact it really isn't a fact at all, since its really only been just 2 months that the the defense is even in pads together. You want to count the 5 days they had at the mini camps DI -

The guy made a reasonable point. Many of the guys that we hold up as examples of excellence, also played on 2 very mediocre-bad teams before they became the players we hoped.

Do you really think you can see into the future and determine that so many of these young players are going to be failures? Or make the assumption after 3 games that the defensive transition is a failure? That's the height of Hubris

No, Ken, it's not "way overstating" at all. His point sucks. Belichick has talked about it before, as another poster noted. In fact, here was Belichick discussing it just back on the 12th:

Q: Do you worry about that with rookies, specifically the secondary? Do you feel like you have to compromise how much you can throw at them?

BB: I think we've been practicing now for 50 practices, counting the dozen or so in the spring and all the ones in training camp, and this is our fifth game. Somewhere along the line, you've got to be able to do something.



Read more at: Bill Belichick Postgame Press Conference

and the follow up:

Q: Was there a little bit of the element of the unknown on defense coming into this game with so many rookies?

BB: Again, we've had over 50 practices and this is our fifth game. Yeah, I mean, we've got a lot to learn. There are a lot of things we can do better and all of that, but at the same time, we've been doing those things for a quite a while with the same people. I'm comfortable with them doing it and I think they're comfortable.

If Belichick can make a point of it, certainly Breer can take his lead and move forward with it. Allen took a stupid shot at Breer and made himself look like a fool in the process:

He starts out by basically insisting that after three weeks, this defense should be so much more developed by now. Three weeks! He moans that ”roughly one-fifth of the season” is gone now. That’s 18.75% of the season! That’s ridiculous.

That's not about 5 years down the road, and it's not about 5 games down the road. It's about where the team should be now. Disagreeing with Breer is one thing. A media guy like Allen getting stupid the way he did is another.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

No, Ken, it's not "way overstating" at all. His point sucks. Belichick has talked about it before, as another poster noted. In fact, here was Belichick discussing it just back on the 12th:



and the follow up:



If Belichick can make a point of it, certainly Breer can take his lead and move forward with it. Allen took a stupid shot at Breer and made himself look like a fool in the process:



That's not about 5 years down the road, and it's not about 5 games down the road. It's about where the team should be now. Disagreeing with Breer is one thing. A media guy like Allen getting stupid the way he did is another.

Again though, there's a big difference between "feeling comfortable knowing the system" and being able to react to situations in real time during a game. It's why players feel better in year two vs. their rookie year, because they start to play their assignments more as second nature. For a lot of these young guys, that split second their brain has to make the decision might be all the RB needs to find a hole, or a WR needs to get a step on them.

What BB is saying (IMO of course), is that there shouldn't be anyone out there who doesn't understand what they're supposed to be doing. That doesn't mean they're going to be able to go out there and make the proper read, play proper physical angle, or react to the speed of the game as it was drawn up every time like a veteran can. Experience and chemistry take game reps on top of hard work in practice.

 

[dhamz]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I think it is fair to say the defense should have lower expectations than the offense. There were those around here who insisted all offseason that last year's defense was "Top 5" and this one would be better but I wouldn't think they were/are the majority. I think most expected the offense to have to carry the defense at times but I don't think expectations can be low enough for the last 2 weeks to be considered anything but a disaster on D.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Yes Crennel runs the same 2 gap.. I expect its his in game adjustments that make them a better team..

Ryan in year 1 had pretty much the same team except a player or two.. plus he changed Revis from Zone to Man to Man (actually he puts Revis on the opponents best WR)

And u didn't mention Nolan or Philps.. Two coaches who went in with the same personel and changed their philosphy and now have top rated defenses.

Why would I bother with Nolan and Phillips when Crennel's enough to prove your point wrong, and you chose him yourself? Also,

Patriots: 2-1
Chiefs: 3-0

Dolphins: 2-1
Cowboys: 1-2

To this point in the season, the 2-gap scheme has the edge in the group you picked out. It's not the scheme up front that's the problem.

 

[patfanken]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

My gut feeling is it's mostly a case of too much (young talent) at too many positions though, I'm still somewhat concerned over the performance woes of this defense over the last couple of years.

I used to go into games believing that BB gave this team a decided coaching advantage over any offensive mind that stood across the field from him. During these times I felt that this team (defense especially) would win every game it played as a result.

It's been so long since I have felt this way that I wonder if that "it" factor is gone. In fact, most often times I feel the exact opposite; that BB won't be able to coach this defense to win the game for us.

I sure hope that changes, and soon, because we only have Brady for a limited time. Would be a shame if the defense holds him back.

This is a feeling I can sympathize with, though I don't think its BB who lost something off his fast ball. I think those past, porous and soft defenses were a product of a couple of things. Polian Rules, losses of key personnel due to injury (ie Rodney, AThomas (he was having his best season as a Pat when he broke his arm), etc. and the league catching up to his strategies. Please don't forget that last season despite injuries, questionable talent, etc the Pats ranked 6th in scoring D. That's good coaching

I find this sturmundrang over the defense quite premature. Think about it. Of the back 7, including the rotational guys, only TBC, Sanders, and Ninkovitch have had over 3 years experience. Patience

The offense and special teams are good enough to win enough games for us to contend, if the Defense continues to improve, even if it will be hard to see.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Again though, there's a big difference between "feeling comfortable knowing the system" and being able to react to situations in real time during a game. It's why players feel better in year two vs. their rookie year, because they start to play their assignments more as second nature. For a lot of these young guys, that split second their brain has to make the decision might be all the RB needs to find a hole, or a WR needs to get a step on them.

What BB is saying (IMO of course), is that there shouldn't be anyone out there who doesn't understand what they're supposed to be doing. That doesn't mean they're going to be able to go out there and make the proper read, play proper physical angle, or react to the speed of the game as it was drawn up every time like a veteran can. Experience and chemistry take game reps on top of hard work in practice.

That's fine, but how does that change Breer's assertion about no noticeable improvement to date, and how does it alter what level the team is playing at right now? Agree or disagree with Breer's "improvement" claim, how does Allen have any kind of point at all?

As a 'media' guy, he should have known better than to post that junk.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

This is a feeling I can sympathize with, though I don't think its BB who lost something off his fast ball. I think those past, porous and soft defenses were a product of a couple of things. Polian Rules, losses of key personnel due to injury (ie Rodney, AThomas (he was having his best season as a Pat when he broke his arm), etc. and the league catching up to his strategies. Please don't forget that last season despite injuries, questionable talent, etc the Pats ranked 6th in scoring D. That's good coaching

I find this sturmundrang over the defense quite premature. Think about it. Of the back 7, including the rotational guys, only TBC, Sanders, and Ninkovitch have had over 3 years experience. Patience

The offense and special teams are good enough to win enough games for us to contend, if the Defense continues to improve, even if it will be hard to see.

Leadership is missing, and holes need filling, because BB decided to trade away players like Seymour, Hobbs and Vrabel. Asking people to be patient, when BB is the one needlessly causing many of the problems in the first place, is a bit of a tall order.

 

[g-fresh]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Leadership is missing, and holes need filling, because BB decided to trade away players like Seymour, Hobbs and Vrabel. Asking people to be patient, when BB is the one needlessly causing many of the problems in the first place, is a bit of a tall order.

I think its funny you mention Hobbs as a potential veteran leader, as he might be the most vilified player around here in the past few years. I was as big a fan of Hobbs fan as anyone (gotta love how much heart the guy has) but it's fair to say that they wanted to move on and I don't really blame them for it.

As for Seymour, we knew we would not be willing to pay him the way he wanted to and decided to get a 1st round pick in exchange for one season of his play. We have to wait and see who we get with that pick, but the way the Raiders are playing it should be in the top 10.

It's a lose/lose situation. If you hang onto guys like Bruschi and Vrabel for their leadership as their skills decline and they become liabilities then people blame you for not being willing to acquire new talent. If you let them go and try to find the next generation of players then you get blasted for not hanging onto the leaders who helped you win superbowls.

At some point you have to look to the future, and you can only hang onto roster spots for older players that contribute less and less each year for so long. I applaud Belichick for having the guts to start fresh and try to build another great defense from the ground up. It won't be instantaneous, and at the very least we need to wait until the last few weeks of this season to see how they are playing to give them a fair grade since they have so many young players.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

I think its funny you mention Hobbs as a potential veteran leader, as he might be the most vilified player around here in the past few years. I was as big a fan of Hobbs fan as anyone (gotta love how much heart the guy has) but it's fair to say that they wanted to move on and I don't really blame them for it.

Well, Hobbs told it as he saw it, but I was including him regarding the defensive holes, not as a leadership solution. Leadership is where Vrabel and Seymour come in.

As for Seymour, we knew we would not be willing to pay him the way he wanted to and decided to get a 1st round pick in exchange for one season of his play. We have to wait and see who we get with that pick, but the way the Raiders are playing it should be in the top 10.

It's a lose/lose situation. If you hang onto guys like Bruschi and Vrabel for their leadership as their skills decline and they become liabilities then people blame you for not being willing to acquire new talent. If you let them go and try to find the next generation of players then you get blasted for not hanging onto the leaders who helped you win superbowls.

At some point you have to look to the future, and you can only hang onto roster spots for older players that contribute less and less each year for so long. I applaud Belichick for having the guts to start fresh and try to build another great defense from the ground up. It won't be instantaneous, and at the very least we need to wait until the last few weeks of this season to see how they are playing to give them a fair grade since they have so many young players.

I'm not going to revisit those trades, since my position on them is already well known. However, having Seymour, Hobbs and Vrabel on this team right now would solve the DE problem, the CB problem and a significant portion of the OLB problem, and this team would probably be 3-0 and comfortably ensconced at the top of the AFC favorites list. You can't expect people to just muddle along like sheep when you ask for patience because the team is young, when the reason the team is young is that the staff is jettisoning off the veterans who could have alleviated the problem.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

That's fine, but how does that change Breer's assertion about no noticeable improvement to date, and how does it alter what level the team is playing at right now? Agree or disagree with Breer's "improvement" claim, how does Allen have any kind of point at all?

As a 'media' guy, he should have known better than to post that junk.

If you are so worried about dung publication, why do you continually post?

How does it change "Breer's assertion"? Well with the game on the line, the defense came up with two picks. One forced by Cunningham's pressure. In the second half, it was stop, pick, TD, pick.

That's an improvement from week two. What else happened?

Only one long TD drive surrendered.
One short field stop resulted in a field goal
Three red zone stops

The game is on the line and the defense made the play. That's a difference between "situational football' and stat quoting (Breer) mentioned in the origional article.

Maybe Breer should provide examples where defenses that turnover 10 starters and go with 3 rookies/3 second year players are totally dominant.

Maybe Breer should explain why Miami's defense was even worse since he's quoting the stats.

As Brian Billick said, "quoting stats and believing and backing up assertions for guys who quote stats is for losers".

Also, who exactly has asked you for your patience? Did Mr. Kraft or BB send you a letter asking for time? If so, publish it. I'd like to see it.

 

[mcsully]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

Why would I bother with Nolan and Phillips when Crennel's enough to prove your point wrong, and you chose him yourself? Also,

Patriots: 2-1
Chiefs: 3-0

Dolphins: 2-1
Cowboys: 1-2

To this point in the season, the 2-gap scheme has the edge in the group you picked out. It's not the scheme up front that's the problem.

One out of four situations doesn't prove a point wrong.. and on the one, I made a valid point about adjustments to the scheme. Breer mentioned this last night on Comcast saying that two opposing teams stated the pats didn't make adjustments.

You also forgot the jets at 2-1.. And all 4 teams have a better defense than Pats.

 

[Snapper]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

However, having Seymour, Hobbs and Vrabel on this team right now would solve the DE problem, the CB problem and a significant portion of the OLB problem, and this team would probably be 3-0 and comfortably ensconced at the top of the AFC favorites list. You can't expect people to just muddle along like sheep when you ask for patience because the team is young, when the reason the team is young is that the staff is jettisoning off the veterans who could have alleviated the problem.

That's quite the leap of faith built on a lot of speculation, only to be one game better than they currently stand. By "having" these players, do you mean in addition to players they currently have? For instance, Vrabel was part of the trade that yielded Chung, so if the Pats still had Vrabel, we wouldn't have the young safety. I prefer Chung to a 35-year-old OLB; loved Vrabel, but you have to move on at some point.

And not trading Seymour would only have assured his presence for 2009. They'd still have to face his free agency this past offseason (as Oakland did), at the same time Wilfork, Bodden, Banta-Cain, Faulk, Neal, Watson, Green also became UFAs. And they briefly used the franchise tag on Wilfork, so they wouldn't have had it to use on Seymour. I think Seymour was a goner after '09 anyway.

I blame the Patriots for getting little from the '06 and '07 drafts, creating the talent void that the '09 and '10 drafts now have to fill.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: BSMatriots Grade Well On One Side, Patience Needed On Other

One out of four situations doesn't prove a point wrong.. and on the one, I made a valid point about adjustments to the scheme. Breer mentioned this last night on Comcast saying that two opposing teams stated the pats didn't make adjustments.

You also forgot the jets at 2-1.. And all 4 teams have a better defense than Pats.

I'm not going to play "watch mcsully move the goalposts", but thanks.

The more I watch other defenses around the league, the more I'm starting to believe that the 3-4 read-react defense that BB runs is simply obsolete and doesn't work within the framework of the new rules geared towards offense.

It only takes one to prove that statement wrong, and I didn't even point out that the Patriots were #5 in scoring defense last year with a defense that was nowhere near that level of talent. If you want to continue now that your argument is dead, that's on you. I'm done with this.