Brett Favre's decision and when he makes it may affect the Patriots

[Deus Irae]

I gave you specific examples how his passer rating is overblown. I gave you a specific example without the final game that he was consistently making costly mistakes for the Jets.

It has nothing to do with how I feel about Favre. It about the reality of the guy. He gambles too much and it costs his team. He played a big role in the loss to the Raiders. He almost cost the Jets the game vs. the Chiefs (he threw one less TD pass to a Chief player than Tyler Thigpen and had two other INTs to boot). He almost lost the Cincy game.

You want to talk about stretches? How about the four game stretch between week 6 and 10 where the Chiefs faced three of the worst teams in the league (Cincy, KC, and Oakland along with a mediocre Bills team) and he had 3 TDs and 8 INTS? That was before he was injured and was against bad teams.

I am looking at this realistically about Favre. He had an up and down season all year long not just the final five weeks. I'm sorry you can't see that. Just because the Jets squeaked by Bills (the week 10 game) on a week where Favre threw for 201 yards, no TDs (unless you count Jabari Greer's INT for a TD), and an INT doesn't mean he deserves credit for playing well in the win.

I watched a lot of Jets games this year and other than a handful of them, Favre was no prize and actually many times was the team's worst enemy. Yes, he was great in the Pats second game and ok in the Titans' game (he did have a costly penalty at the time), but the Jets won a lot of those first eight wins because of the defense and not the offense. Favre did a lot to keep teams in games this season and not just the last five games.

I think my assessment is pretty fair on the guy. I think even a lot of diehard Favre fans would agree about him. It may not been his fault. It could have been Mangini and his staff, but it was the additions of Kris Jenkins and Calvin Pace that got them to 8-3 far, far more than the addition of Favre.

Come on now.... read your own posts going back. You're nothing approaching "fair on this guy".

As for how the Jets were winning, I don't get your point. 8-3, and 3 straight strong games just before his injury must be blocking it, so maybe you can tell me how

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shows some kind of overwhelming reliance upon the defense.

You see, I look at the Jets and I see a team that finished as the #9 scoring offense in the league despite that end of season collapse. The Chargers, the #2 scoring team in the league, scored only 34 points more than the Jets did last season. The Patriots outscored the Jets by just 5 points.

 

[Rob0729]

Come on now.... read your own posts going back. You're nothing approaching "fair on this guy".

As for how the Jets were winning, I don't get your point. 8-3, and 3 straight strong games just before his injury must be blocking it, so maybe you can tell me how

20
10
29
56
26
13
28
26
47
34 and
34 points
shows some kind of overwhelming reliance upon the defense.

You see, I look at the Jets and I see a team that finished as the #9 scoring offense in the league despite that end of season collapse. The Chargers, the #2 scoring team in the league, scored only 34 points more than the Jets did last season. The Patriots outscored the Jets by just 5 points.

You seem to forget that the Jets had the AFC leading rusher (5th overall) and AFC leading rushing scorer (again 5th in the NFL) in Thomas Jones. Favre was 9th in passing TDs, but you take away that Arizona game and he would be tied for 16th. He is first in INTs and he was first in INTs before he got injured. Also the Jets were 11th in passing TDs (the Chiefs as a team had more passing TDs than Favre did). The Jets were 5th in the league in rushing TDs. Let's give Favre all the credit, it a team game and Favre didn't win all those games by himself.

Again, I am being fair. I can separate the legend of Favre with Favre at his current state. I have given you examples where he played poorly and the Jets were winning dispite his poor play. I have given you examples of how others have had a far bigger role at least at times than Favre in wins. Even many of the biggest Favre ball washers in the media admitted that he didn't have a great year and many were questioning early in the year whether the Jets made the right move. I have said many times that he had a great 2007 season, but thought that was more of an aborration than the norm and I was proven right so far.

I will give him that his poor play for most of this past season could have been due in large part because of poor coaching. But Favre led the NFL this season in INT, holds the career record for INTs, and has led the league before in INTs for a season. Something tells me that most of his INTs this year was due to poor decision making rather than an injury. I witnessed a lot of them this season and many were short passes.

 

[Deus Irae]

You seem to forget that the Jets had the AFC leading rusher (5th overall) and AFC leading rushing scorer (again 5th in the NFL) in Thomas Jones. Favre was 9th in passing TDs, but you take away that Arizona game and he would be tied for 16th. He is first in INTs and he was first in INTs before he got injured. Also the Jets were 11th in passing TDs (the Chiefs as a team had more passing TDs than Favre did). The Jets were 5th in the league in rushing TDs. Let's give Favre all the credit, it a team game and Favre didn't win all those games by himself.

I'm not forgetting anything, and I'm not the one who keeps insisting on taking things away to make a bad argument look a little better. The rushing numbers don't somehow mean they didn't score points.

Again, I am being fair. I can separate the legend of Favre with Favre at his current state. I have given you examples where he played poorly and the Jets were winning dispite his poor play. I have given you examples of how others have had a far bigger role at least at times than Favre in wins. Even many of the biggest Favre ball washers in the media admitted that he didn't have a great year and many were questioning early in the year whether the Jets made the right move. I have said many times that he had a great 2007 season, but thought that was more of an aborration than the norm and I was proven right so far.

You're not even coming close to being fair. You first claimed it was the defense that carried the team. When I showed you the scoring numbers, you then jumped to the running game rather than just admitting you were wrong. Of course, the irony is that if Brady comes back and struggles at the start of next season, you'll be screaming "Give him time!" from the rooftops. The reality is that Favre and the offense going through fits and starts at the beginning of the season was to be expected by anyone with a brain, due to the lateness of the trade. The reality is that Favre went on a 3 game stretch were he was very, very good, as he led the Jets to wins over the Rams, Patriots and Titans. The reality is that he got hurt and was not the same after that. And, before you go claiming that such expectations are hindsight, feel free to go back and look on my posts on the subject, when I noted that I would not be surprised if the Patriots and Jets split the season series, and that the Jets win would come in the second game because the first game would be too soon for the Jets to have meshed as a squad.

I will give him that his poor play for most of this past season could have been due in large part because of poor coaching. But Favre led the NFL this season in INT, holds the career record for INTs, and has led the league before in INTs for a season. Something tells me that most of his INTs this year was due to poor decision making rather than an injury. I witnessed a lot of them this season and many were short passes.

"Give him" all you want. The reality is that he played well more than he struggled, considering the circumstances, prior to his injury. The rest of your argument is just you actively seeking ways to complain about his game. That's not "fair" at all.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not forgetting anything, and I'm not the one who keeps insisting on taking things away to make a bad argument look a little better. The rushing numbers don't somehow mean they didn't score points.



You're not even coming close to being fair. You first claimed it was the defense that carried the team. When I showed you the scoring numbers, you then jumped to the running game rather than just admitting you were wrong. Of course, the irony is that if Brady comes back and struggles at the start of next season, you'll be screaming "Give him time!" from the rooftops. The reality is that Favre and the offense going through fits and starts at the beginning of the season was to be expected by anyone with a brain, due to the lateness of the trade. The reality is that Favre went on a 3 game stretch were he was very, very good, as he led the Jets to wins over the Rams, Patriots and Titans. The reality is that he got hurt and was not the same after that. And, before you go claiming that such expectations are hindsight, feel free to go back and look on my posts on the subject, when I noted that I would not be surprised if the Patriots and Jets split the season series, and that the Jets win would come in the second game because the first game would be too soon for the Jets to have meshed as a squad.



"Give him" all you want. The reality is that he played well more than he struggled, considering the circumstances, prior to his injury. The rest of your argument is just you actively seeking ways to complain about his game. That's not "fair" at all.

If you want recreate history and make it sound like Favre had a good year before he was injured, that's fine with me. It is funny that you change the subject as much as I do or do you just think a four game stretch of horrible playing against some of the worst teams in the league was just an aboration just like the five game stretch at the end? Apparently, you only want to focus on the three great game stretch rather than the 9 horrible games in two stretches.

Let's go through each game with my assessment (dispute my point on point and prove me wrong):

Week 1: Miami - Good game, 2 TDs, 0 INTs
Week 2: New England - Bad game - 1 TD, 1 INT allowed AD to drag him back for an unsurmountable sack at the end of the game.
Week 3: San Deigo - Bad game - 3 TDs, 2 INTs, but 175 of his 271 pass yards and 2 of the TDs were in garbage time in the fourth quarter when the Jets were down by 24 points, the Jets were 1 for 8 on third downs, and failed on two 2 point conversions (both Favre passing attempts)
Week 4: Arizona - Great game - Career high 6 TDs
Week 6: Cincy - Bad game - 1 TD, 2 INTs. Fumbled the ball which was returned for a TD
Week 7: Oakland - Bad game - No TDs, 2 INTs, 5 for 15 in third down conversions, Went 21 for 38 (55.2%) for 197 yards
Week 8: KC - Bad game - Threw 2 TDs passes and 3 INTs, one of the INTs was returned for a TD.
Week 9: Buffalo - Bad game - Threw no TDs and one INT. The INT was returned for TD. Also, fumbled the ball once.
week 10: the Rams - Good game - Might have been better or worse, but this game was won by the running game (Thomas Jones rushed for 149 yards and 3 TDs) and defense (5 turnovers including a Calvin Pace fumble recovery for TD). Favre only threw 19 passes, but was efficient completing 14 of them with one TD and no INTs.
Week 11: NE - Great game - Very efficient, scored 2 TDs and no INT, led the team on the game winning overtime TD including a crucial 3rd and 15 conversion
Week 12 - Great game - Did have a bad pick, but overall great performance. Although 192 yards on the ground didn't hurt him.
Week 13 - Denver - Bad game - Completed 23 of 43 passes for 247 yards, no TDs and 1 INT. Also fumbled and lost another ball. 3 for 11 in third down conversions. 0 for 3 in 4th down conversions.
Week 14: Bad game - 20 for 31 for 137 yards, no TDs, and 1 INT. The jets were 1 for 10 on third down.
Week 15: Bad game - 1 TD vs. 2 INTs. 4 for 11 on third downs. 0 for 1 on fourth downs.
Week 16: Bad game - No TDs, 2 INTs. 3 for 12 on third down conversions. 0 for 1 on fourth down conversions.
Week 17 - Miami - Bad game - 1 TD vs. 3 INTs. One INT returned for a TD. I think we all watched that game to know all the places he screwed up.

Tell me where I am wrong? I count 10 bad games, 3 great games, 3 good games.

I have lost respect for Favre the man for the crap he has pulled the last few mans, but always respected Favre the player. But last year he was the second worst QB in this division alone. He makes far too many strategic errors which he has done for most of his career, but unlike in his earlier days he doesn't have the magic to overcome them like he did.

If Favre comes back he will give the team he plays for exactly what I described he did, several great games, a lot of average ones, and a bunch of bad ones. He had 10 games last year where he was a below average QB and he made bad decisions even some of the good games. Again, I never said he didn't have great games, I just said he had a lot of bad ones.

 

[Deus Irae]

If you want recreate history and make it sound like Favre had a good year before he was injured, that's fine with me. It is funny that you change the subject as much as I do or do you just think a four game stretch of horrible playing against some of the worst teams in the league was just an aboration just like the five game stretch at the end? Apparently, you only want to focus on the three great game stretch rather than the 9 horrible games in two stretches.

Let's go through each game with my assessment (dispute my point on point and prove me wrong):

Week 1: Miami - Good game, 2 TDs, 0 INTs
Week 2: New England - Bad game - 1 TD, 1 INT allowed AD to drag him back for an unsurmountable sack at the end of the game.
Week 3: San Deigo - Bad game - 3 TDs, 2 INTs, but 175 of his 271 pass yards and 2 of the TDs were in garbage time in the fourth quarter when the Jets were down by 24 points, the Jets were 1 for 8 on third downs, and failed on two 2 point conversions (both Favre passing attempts)
Week 4: Arizona - Great game - Career high 6 TDs
Week 6: Cincy - Bad game - 1 TD, 2 INTs. Fumbled the ball which was returned for a TD
Week 7: Oakland - Bad game - No TDs, 2 INTs, 5 for 15 in third down conversions, Went 21 for 38 (55.2%) for 197 yards
Week 8: KC - Bad game - Threw 2 TDs passes and 3 INTs, one of the INTs was returned for a TD.
Week 9: Buffalo - Bad game - Threw no TDs and one INT. The INT was returned for TD. Also, fumbled the ball once.
week 10: the Rams - Good game - Might have been better or worse, but this game was won by the running game (Thomas Jones rushed for 149 yards and 3 TDs) and defense (5 turnovers including a Calvin Pace fumble recovery for TD). Favre only threw 19 passes, but was efficient completing 14 of them with one TD and no INTs.
Week 11: NE - Great game - Very efficient, scored 2 TDs and no INT, led the team on the game winning overtime TD including a crucial 3rd and 15 conversion
Week 12 - Great game - Did have a bad pick, but overall great performance. Although 192 yards on the ground didn't hurt him.
Week 13 - Denver - Bad game - Completed 23 of 43 passes for 247 yards, no TDs and 1 INT. Also fumbled and lost another ball. 3 for 11 in third down conversions. 0 for 3 in 4th down conversions.
Week 14: Bad game - 20 for 31 for 137 yards, no TDs, and 1 INT. The jets were 1 for 10 on third down.
Week 15: Bad game - 1 TD vs. 2 INTs. 4 for 11 on third downs. 0 for 1 on fourth downs.
Week 16: Bad game - No TDs, 2 INTs. 3 for 12 on third down conversions. 0 for 1 on fourth down conversions.
Week 17 - Miami - Bad game - 1 TD vs. 3 INTs. One INT returned for a TD. I think we all watched that game to know all the places he screwed up.

Tell me where I am wrong? I count 10 bad games, 3 great games, 3 good games.

I have lost respect for Favre the man for the crap he has pulled the last few mans, but always respected Favre the player. But last year he was the second worst QB in this division alone. He makes far too many strategic errors which he has done for most of his career, but unlike in his earlier days he doesn't have the magic to overcome them like he did.

If Favre comes back he will give the team he plays for exactly what I described he did, several great games, a lot of average ones, and a bunch of bad ones. He had 10 games last year where he was a below average QB and he made bad decisions even some of the good games. Again, I never said he didn't have great games, I just said he had a lot of bad ones.

1.) I've already pointed out where you were wrong.

2.) You're behaving towards Favre the way Maverick behaves towards McDaniels. I'm surprised that you haven't figured that out yet.

 

[Rob0729]

1.) I've already pointed out where you were wrong.

2.) You're behaving towards Favre the way Maverick behaves towards McDaniels. I'm surprised that you haven't figured that out yet.

1.) In other words, you got nothing. You avoid the Cincy, KC, Oakland, Buffalo stretch like the plague because you know he played like crap. You say he played well in San Deigo because he had a good passer rating, but if you watched the game you would know his numbers were padded stats in garbage time and he played like crap when it mattered in the first three quarters.

2.) BS. Just because I don't have Brett Favre man-love doesn't mean I look at him like Maverick looks at McDaniels. I look at Favre realistically. You will find virtually no one saying Favre had a good season even if you take away his last 5 games. In fact some of his own players called him out.

Go through each game and prove me wrong. I have conceeded the Arizona, St. Louis, second NE, and Titans games. So don't bring that up as a rebuttal yet again. Tell me how he played well against San Deigo, New England the first time, Cincy, KC, Oakland, or Buffalo. You can't. You rather just avoid the issue and call me a Favre hater. I brought facts to the table. Why don't you? Until you do, I guess we have nothing else to discuss.

I fairly assessed each game. Tell me game by game how I was just being a hater.

 

[Deus Irae]

1.) In other words, you got nothing. You avoid the Cincy, KC, Oakland, Buffalo stretch like the plague because you know he played like crap. You say he played well in San Deigo because he had a good passer rating, but if you watched the game you would know his numbers were padded stats in garbage time and he played like crap when it mattered in the first three quarters.

I didn't avoid anything. You interpreted my words poorly ("If you want recreate history and make it sound like Favre had a good year before he was injured, that's fine with me."), so I decided to just leave things where they were. I don't think you did it on purpose the way others do, so I didn't call you on it.

2.) BS. Just because I don't have Brett Favre man-love doesn't mean I look at him like Maverick looks at McDaniels. I look at Favre realistically. You will find virtually no one saying Favre had a good season even if you take away his last 5 games. In fact some of his own players called him out.

I'm sorry, but it seems pretty clear to me that you are, in fact, doing precisely that.

Go through each game and prove me wrong. I have conceeded the Arizona, St. Louis, second NE, and Titans games. So don't bring that up as a rebuttal yet again. Tell me how he played well against San Deigo, New England the first time, Cincy, KC, Oakland, or Buffalo. You can't. You rather just avoid the issue and call me a Favre hater. I brought facts to the table.

Why would I bother? I didn't claim that Favre deserved to be an All-Pro or anything, what I said was "The reality is that he played well more than he struggled, considering the circumstances, prior to his injury." You were the one first claiming it was the defense, then claiming it was the running game, then talking about garbage time, etc.... Your "facts" kept changing, and the Arizona concession was all about "but..." rather than just an admission.

Again, he had the team at 8-3 prior to his injury. He was late to camp due to the trade, and threw a grand total of 18 passes during the preseason. Nonetheless, in 6 out of the 11 pre-injury games, his quarterback rating was above 90, 7 of the 11 games saw him complete better than 70% of his passes, two more saw him complete more than 60% of his passes, and only one game saw him under that, with a 55% completion rate in the game against Oakland (his worst pre-injury game).

 

[Rob0729]

I didn't avoid anything. You interpreted my words poorly ("If you want recreate history and make it sound like Favre had a good year before he was injured, that's fine with me."), so I decided to just leave things where they were. I don't think you did it on purpose the way others do, so I didn't call you on it.



I'm sorry, but it seems pretty clear to me that you are, in fact, doing precisely that.



Why would I bother? I didn't claim that Favre deserved to be an All-Pro or anything, what I said was "The reality is that he played well more than he struggled, considering the circumstances, prior to his injury." You were the one first claiming it was the defense, then claiming it was the running game, then talking about garbage time, etc.... Your "facts" kept changing, and the Arizona concession was all about "but..." rather than just an admission.

Again, he had the team at 8-3 prior to his injury. He was late to camp due to the trade, and threw a grand total of 18 passes during the preseason. Nonetheless, in 6 out of the 11 pre-injury games, his quarterback rating was above 90, 7 of the 11 games saw him complete better than 70% of his passes, two more saw him complete more than 60% of his passes, and only one game saw him under that, with a 55% completion rate in the game against Oakland (his worst pre-injury game).

I guess we are done then. I'm sorry, but I just don't judge QBs on passer ratings and completion percentages without looking at TDs, INTs, fumbles (which isn't included in passer ratings), game situations, etc. Keep in mind that Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, Tony Romo, Seneca Wallace, Trent Edwards, David Garrard, etc. all had better passer ratings than Favre this season (Favre was 21st in passer rating). So I wouldn't put that much weight into the passer rating. 5 games shouldn't bring him down that much.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. We are just going around in circles.

 

[sebman2112]

Going by this reporters speculation, the Jets must be among the dumbest sports franchises in America. They can't trade Favre to the Vikings, so they'll simply release him without compensation...

Also, I like Sharper, but old man Sharper, and a low round pick for Cassel is a pretty laughable trade proposal, especially since Darren's scheduled to hit free agency this year.

 

[maverick4]

Favre played hurt his last several games, and had a clutch game to beat the Pats.

He's still a prima donna who makes costly, predictable dumb plays in big games, and I hope he plays for the Jets another 3 years before being traded to the Vikings.

But it's wildly entertaining watching two of the biggest site irrationals go head to head over Farve, please continue.

 

[maverick4]

Favre had the Jets at 8-3 before he got hurt. Fans may forget that, or choose to ignore it in their zeal for attacking the guy, but most teams are smart enough to understand the significance. Unlike a lot of people here, I'd much rather the Jets get stuck with Clemens under center than see Favre return.

Hilarious.

 

[Zeus]

One thing that doesn't seem to be in dispute is that Farve played terribly the last five games of the year. This is being attributed to an injury and that may well be (although I'm not sure anyone knows just when he was injured).

The thing you haven't discussed is this. If Farve was in fact injured and the injury significantly affected his ability to play, why did he continue to do so?

I made light of Farve's personality in an earlier post. But when the jets traded for Brett, they got all of him, good and bad. They got the 17 years of wear and tear, the tendency toward undisciplined play, and the outsized ego that is having the understandable difficulty of relinquishing the limelight.

If Brett played when he shouldn't have, he hurt the team. You can't measure that by QB rating.

 

[maverick4]

If Farve was in fact injured and the injury significantly affected his ability to play, why did he continue to do so?

Because he's an ego-driven prima donna who wants to maintain his game streak.

 

[Deus Irae]

One thing that doesn't seem to be in dispute is that Farve played terribly the last five games of the year. This is being attributed to an injury and that may well be (although I'm not sure anyone knows just when he was injured).

The thing you haven't discussed is this. If Farve was in fact injured and the injury significantly affected his ability to play, why did he continue to do so?

I made light of Farve's personality in an earlier post. But when the jets traded for Brett, they got all of him, good and bad. They got the 17 years of wear and tear, the tendency toward undisciplined play, and the outsized ego that is having the understandable difficulty of relinquishing the limelight.

If Brett played when he shouldn't have, he hurt the team. You can't measure that by QB rating.

Have you seen the Jets backups?

 

[maverick4]

Brett Favre is as good and yet horribly flawed as McDaniels is. No surprise Douche is equally in love with both, and defending Favre here.

Favre has put up monster stats past and present, and had a nice run going this year before he hurt his shoulder. That doesn't change the fact he is a consistent choker, forces the ball instead of adapting to what the D gives him, an interception machine, and a prima donna. Similar, McKid puts up monster stats, but is a choker, who generally refuses to adapt to what the D gives him.

The only people who still think Favre can play at this point at himself, his family, and his mother.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brett Favre is as good and yet horribly flawed as McDaniels is. No surprise Douche is equally in love with both, and defending Favre here.

Favre has put up monster stats past and present, and had a nice run going this year before he hurt his shoulder. That doesn't change the fact he is a consistent choker, forces the ball instead of adapting to what the D gives him, an interception machine, and a prima donna. Similar, McKid puts up monster stats, but is a choker, who generally refuses to adapt to what the D gives him.

The only people who still think Favre can play at this point at himself, his family, and his mother.

Trying to hijack another thread, I see. And using personal insults to do it. How nice....

 

[Rob0729]

Brett Favre is as good and yet horribly flawed as McDaniels is. No surprise Douche is equally in love with both, and defending Favre here.

Bringing McDaniels into a Brett Favre discussion? Are you really going to go there? Are you wondering why many people on this board think you are a McDaniels hating nutjob? And I am basing that statement on the responses by people to your posts on McDaniels, not neccessarily my opinion.

 

[maverick4]

Please carry on. I didn't mean to interrupt your Favre argument with each other involving pseudo facts and then the typical childish jabs that typify your styles.