Breer: Pats were counting on J. Taylor joining them

[Rob0729]

Plus Pierre "Lawrence Taylor" Woods is a free agent*** after the year. It is not like he is pegged to be a long time star.

As unproven as OLB is, I think we should get average NFL production, not sure if that will be good enough but we shall see. ILB is more of an issue, Guyton is appointed my many as an up and coming player. Maybe, maybe not.. Bruschi doesn't have much left. Basically if Thomas or Mayo miss any significant time the LB situation could get ugly. Having a better option a OLB (ala Ellis or Taylor) would have given them the flexibility to move Thomas to ILB for certain packages.

*** If there is not CBA in place Woods would become a RFA, not sure what that means except the Patriots would have some sort of control over his movement.

I have more faith in our ILB position than OLB. Both Bruschi and Lenon have had significant starting experience (Lenon hasn't played the 3-4, but has started the last 3 3/4 seasons and was pretty productive the last two). Guyton was playing very well at ILB until they moved him outside for lack of depth. I know Bruschi really should only be used for situational play, but I think they have four ILBs and all of them are capable of starting if needed (maybe not prefered). Plus Seau is still a call away.

I am not saying Woods won't turn into a solid starter this year. I am just concerned that we are going into the season with a big unknown at that position. I really don't know if there is a guy who can step into that positon and be anything more than average or worse. Someone could surprise me. Woods playing for a contract could be a stud this season, I just don't know if I am counting on that and it seems that Belichick wasn't counting on that either based on his offseason actions.

 

[Funktopus]

Woods started three games last year. How is that enough information to tell if he is a good full-time starter. The Pats were 1-2 over that stretch and gave up 34, 28, and 33 points during that stretch. Statitistcally he had one very good game and two mediocre games. Although I can't remember specific running plays towards him, the Pats allowed 140 rushing yards, 66 rushing yards, and 161 rushing yards during that stretch. I think you may be overstating his run stopping ability. I'm still not convinced he can be a full-time starter and I do think two of the Pats worst defensive games last season were when he was a starter.

I took about 1/2 hour and read the play-by-play from nfl.com for these games, PIT, NYJ and MIA. Teams rarely ran left. And only PIT ran left with success, though as I recall that game degenerated into an overall meltdown.

The reason I wanted to go look was because I always see teams trying to exploit the new guy. But after scanning the play-by-play, it didn't happen. Teams didn't try to run more in Woods' direction. Whether or not that means anything? I dunno. But since this is an anonymous public message board for the pats, I'll speculate:
1) every team has a tendency to run right more, the observation means nothing.
2) teams don't think he stinks enough to try to do anything special.
3) why exploit pierre woods when you can pick on deltha o'neal?

I dunno what will happen this season, but it will be interesting to see how other teams approach the pats defense without an obvious weakness to exploit. Or who know's? maybe it's just not obvious right now.

 

[patchick]

Exactly, BB's philosophy has been to get enough talented people on the field at a position so that there is competition. When in his history has he ever simply expected a free agent to sign and not done other moves? I can't think of an instance - but there are plenty of examples of him getting 2 or 3 bodies for 1 position (like CB this year).

This is kind of an unfair question, because it requires the FA not signing -- and us fans knowing he turned down the offer. (Adalius Thomas was a one-man solution, not 2 or 3 bodies. Who knows what would have happened had he gone elsewhere? Etc.) But for one example, I don't recall the team loading up on WR alternatives once Derrick Mason said no.

In this case, we have solid reports that the Pats have been pursuing multiple contingencies. They don't seem to be looking for 2 or 3 bodies to fill a void, but rather one short-term impact vet to complement the developing youngsters. Taylor was option A; when that fell through, they made offers for Ellis and Burgess. (Personally I don't count Jeremy Jarmon, since he's a Jarvis Green clone and would likely have stayed on the DL.)

Nah, the sky's not falling. But clearly BB & Co. were hoping for Taylor/Ellis/Burgess & McKenzie to fill out this roster, and so the LB corps looks a little thin entering camp.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I took about 1/2 hour and read the play-by-play from nfl.com for these games, PIT, NYJ and MIA. Teams rarely ran left. And only PIT ran left with success, though as I recall that game degenerated into an overall meltdown.

The reason I wanted to go look was because I always see teams trying to exploit the new guy. But after scanning the play-by-play, it didn't happen. Teams didn't try to run more in Woods' direction. Whether or not that means anything? I dunno. But since this is an anonymous public message board for the pats, I'll speculate:
1) every team has a tendency to run right more, the observation means nothing.
2) teams don't think he stinks enough to try to do anything special.
3) why exploit pierre woods when you can pick on deltha o'neal?

I dunno what will happen this season, but it will be interesting to see how other teams approach the pats defense without an obvious weakness to exploit. Or who know's? maybe it's just not obvious right now.

:nono: We're doooooooommmmmmmed! :snob:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Nah, the sky's not falling. But clearly BB & Co. were hoping for Taylor/Ellis/Burgess & McKenzie to fill out this "training camp" roster to push the youngsters, and so the LB corps looks a little thin entering camp.

Just some editorial clarification to what I suspect you are thinking.

 

[signbabybrady]

I took about 1/2 hour and read the play-by-play from nfl.com for these games, PIT, NYJ and MIA. Teams rarely ran left. And only PIT ran left with success, though as I recall that game degenerated into an overall meltdown.

The reason I wanted to go look was because I always see teams trying to exploit the new guy. But after scanning the play-by-play, it didn't happen. Teams didn't try to run more in Woods' direction. Whether or not that means anything? I dunno. But since this is an anonymous public message board for the pats, I'll speculate:
1) every team has a tendency to run right more, the observation means nothing.
2) teams don't think he stinks enough to try to do anything special.
3) why exploit pierre woods when you can pick on deltha o'neal?

I dunno what will happen this season, but it will be interesting to see how other teams approach the pats defense without an obvious weakness to exploit. Or who know's? maybe it's just not obvious right now.

Woods has shown he pretty good against the run and with Tully being a good pass rush specialist I can see them replacing Vrabs ability. Thomas takes on more leadership as well as Mayo. And if Crabel or Redd step up we are not to far off of last year. While I have my concerns I think the overall panic is a little overblown. We know what we have in 2 of the four and we could be pleasantly suprised by the other two with Thomas locking down the other side.


sidenote: I do think that OLB spot is one of the weaker areas of the team but I think it is a little overblown. The weakest spot on one of the best teams in the league can still be pretty talented.

 

[Funktopus]

:nono: We're doooooooommmmmmmed! :snob:

thanks box. I took a few re-reads of my post. I wasn't trying to convey "panic". Particularly with #2. if I were given an opportunity for a re-write, "2) Woods displays no discernable weakness to exploit." In general, I was trying to convey my own uncertainty about what will really happen once the regular season is underway.

I'm actually optimistic. If the new, inexperienced player started 3 games last year and 3 opposing teams did nothing (obvious to me) to try to take advantage, isn't that cause for optimism?

I suppose I should I be holding out for more evidence, but it's the end of July and I'm starved for football. With the return of TB and the overhaul of the secondary, I can't wait to see what happens.

 

[cstjohn17]

I have more faith in our ILB position than OLB. Both Bruschi and Lenon have had significant starting experience (Lenon hasn't played the 3-4, but has started the last 3 3/4 seasons and was pretty productive the last two). Guyton was playing very well at ILB until they moved him outside for lack of depth. I know Bruschi really should only be used for situational play, but I think they have four ILBs and all of them are capable of starting if needed (maybe not prefered). Plus Seau is still a call away.

I am not saying Woods won't turn into a solid starter this year. I am just concerned that we are going into the season with a big unknown at that position. I really don't know if there is a guy who can step into that positon and be anything more than average or worse. Someone could surprise me. Woods playing for a contract could be a stud this season, I just don't know if I am counting on that and it seems that Belichick wasn't counting on that either based on his offseason actions.

I don't know, Lenon sounds a lot like Delta O'Neal or Bryant. Lets hope it doesn't come down to Lenon playing as a starter.

 

[patfanken]

I concur on Redd. Bigger and faster than the other three and more NFL game experience than Crable.
DW Toys

I kind of think of Vince Redd as our "Vernon Gholston" (only a LOT LOT LOT less expensive and investment) All the measurables you can ask for. Great size, speed, etc. However NONE of it seems to translate to the football game on the field. I'd love to see it happen, but this is it for Vince. He either makes a splash this camp or he's done. Another great looking prospect with the label "looks like Tarzan....plays like Jane"

 

[Frezo]

The correct statement is that teams don't run at Seymour rather than teams don't run at Woods. When they do he slows down the play enough so the OLB can be more effective.

 

[patfanken]

Personally, I think we are going to get solid, if unspectacular, play from the OLB position this year. I think overall our defense is going to be very good, but not flashy, this year. I see a team defense that is greater than the sum of the parts.
Woods, Crable, TBC, Springs, Bodden, W&W, Chung, Guyton all will make varying contributions at their positions. I think we are better equipped with solid, under the radar, role type players than we have been in a long time.

THis is an excellent and overdo comment, and bears repeating. So I will I think overall our defense is going to be very good, but not flashy, this year. I see a team defense that is greater than the sum of the parts.

A defense doesn't have to have all pros at EVERY position to be great. None of the great defenses of the past ever had. Sometimes we all forget that no one ever plays defense in a vaccuum. Nor are the defense results unrelated to the successes and failures of the offense and special teams.

Why don't we wait a few weeks to see how the team comes together. Give BB and Dean a chance to try out several combinations of personnel and see what seems to work. Pats fans who experienced the 2001 season should know better than most fans about the conceept of the "sum being greater than the individual parts".

I've loved football all these years, for 3 main reasons. I love the chess like challenge that goes into both the game preparation and game day play calling. I simply loved the hitting part of the game (call it my dark side . ) But mostly it was because it IS the ultimate TEAM game. Great individuals have LESS of an impact on the results than ANY other. And so many more times the "sum IS greater than the individual parts" . Sometimes as fans we lose track of that. Kudos to Andy for reminding us

 

[Rob0729]

I don't know, Lenon sounds a lot like Delta O'Neal or Bryant. Lets hope it doesn't come down to Lenon playing as a starter.

I don't know if you can say Lenon is the same as O'Neal or Bryant. O'Neal sucked his last year with the Bengals and went onto prove that it wasn't the system, it was him and the fact he was slowing down from age. Fernando Bryant has been injury prone in his later career with 2007 being the only year since 2003 where he played more than 10 games in a season. Lenon has not been injury prone nor has he shown signs of slowing down from age. His two best seasons of his career have been the last two.

I see him more like Tyrone Poole as a player peaking when he comes to the Pats. If he can give us a Poole type of performance (one year as a very solid starter and then falling off the planet), I will be estatic. I wouldn't write off Lenon as a starter just yet.

For reference, here is Scout Inc's take on the guy:

Lenon is a six year player coming off his best season as the second leading tackler for the Detroit defense. He has good height and has grown into his body nicely. He is a solid athlete, but not an explosive player. He runs well and shows good range in pursuit. He has burst to close and agility to slip blockers or change directions to get to the pile. He uses his hands well, while pursuing with proper angles to work through trash to stay in the fray. He is a solid wrap tackler, but needs to keep his pads over his feet better. He has improved his reactions and appears to be more instinctive over this past season. He has a good feel for route progressions and leveraging the ball as well as having enough athleticism to be an effective man coverage defender. He has worked himself into a starting position and should continue to improve given his intelligence, work ethic and durability.

Paris Lenon Stats, News, Photos - New England Patriots - ESPN

I don't know. If this description is accurate, it looks like he has the potential of being a solid starter in this defense. Potential is not always recognized in this sport, but he seems to be in a different place in his career than either O'Neal or Bryant were in when they got here. I don't think it is a fair comparison.

 

[Ring 6]

This is kind of an unfair question, because it requires the FA not signing -- and us fans knowing he turned down the offer. (Adalius Thomas was a one-man solution, not 2 or 3 bodies. Who knows what would have happened had he gone elsewhere? Etc.) But for one example, I don't recall the team loading up on WR alternatives once Derrick Mason said no.

In this case, we have solid reports that the Pats have been pursuing multiple contingencies. They don't seem to be looking for 2 or 3 bodies to fill a void, but rather one short-term impact vet to complement the developing youngsters. Taylor was option A; when that fell through, they made offers for Ellis and Burgess. (Personally I don't count Jeremy Jarmon, since he's a Jarvis Green clone and would likely have stayed on the DL.)

Nah, the sky's not falling. But clearly BB & Co. were hoping for Taylor/Ellis/Burgess & McKenzie to fill out this roster, and so the LB corps looks a little thin entering camp.

It must be pointed out that having their name associated with us, or even having a rumor out there that we are interested does not necessarily add up to a legitimate interest.
First, BB has consistently shown interest in quality veteran players whether there is need or not. (As far back as Jamal Anderson) So, we are incorrect to assume that his interest indicates he feels there is a need, much less he is 'counting on them'.
Secondly, we are talking about MEDIA reports. The veracity of them are questionable to begin with, and even more questionable when they are about the closed-mouth Pats organization. Having Burgess trade talks in the media does not convince me they are happeing in reality. Remember the Taylor talk was the KRAFT said 'if he wants to come here, I'm sure we have a spot for him'. Kraft does not make personell decisions. That is a far cry from proof BB has searched high and low for an OLB.

By the way when we signed AD we already had Vrabel and Colvin, so it wasnt 1 player filling a need, it was signing a player we wanted to add, regardless of need.

 

[patchick]

we are talking about MEDIA reports. The veracity of them are questionable to begin with, and even more questionable when they are about the closed-mouth Pats organization. Having Burgess trade talks in the media does not convince me they are happeing in reality. Remember the Taylor talk was the KRAFT said 'if he wants to come here, I'm sure we have a spot for him'. Kraft does not make personell decisions. That is a far cry from proof BB has searched high and low for an OLB.

Andy, you've just ruled out using all the available sources of information...then decried the lack of "proof."

We all know that the information available about the Patriots is spotty at best. But this is speculation, not a court of law -- and even if it were, we'd just be looking for a preponderance of evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.

Of course there's no "proof" that the Pats wanted to sign a vet OLB, because the only real "proof" would be a signed contract. But looking at the tea leaves available, I think they spell out "BB was looking for one more vet." And until BB decides to sit down and spill his guts about every personnel decision, piecing together bits and pieces is the best we can do.

 

[signbabybrady]

Andy, you've just ruled out using all the available sources of information...then decried the lack of "proof."

We all know that the information available about the Patriots is spotty at best. But this is speculation, not a court of law -- and even if it were, we'd just be looking for a preponderance of evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.

Of course there's no "proof" that the Pats wanted to sign a vet OLB, because the only real "proof" would be a signed contract. But looking at the tea leaves available, I think they spell out "BB was looking for one more vet." And until BB decides to sit down and spill his guts about every personnel decision, piecing together bits and pieces is the best we can do.

more proof I mean hearsay that BB is interested in OLB....we had Sulak in for a visit

 

[Deus Irae]

Now it's arguing about "proof"? Ok, just use the word "evidence" instead.

 

[wpdougie2180]

Derrick Burgess

Derrick Burgess was a no-show for the opening of Raiders camp on Wednesday.
Burgess is in a contract year and won't get an extension. Coach Tom Cable, who had previously indicated that Burgess won't be a starter this year, is reportedly unhappy with the surprise holdout. Burgess is trying to force a deal, which means the Raiders could revisit talks with the Patriots.

 

[Brady_Moss]

Derrick Burgess

I hope they go thru with this because we seriously need help on the pass rush. That unit is not looking too good right now with Vrable gone and Crable on PUP

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I hope they go thru with this because we seriously need help on the pass rush. That unit is not looking too good right now with Vrable gone and Crable on PUP

Crable was probably not going to start at OLB anyway - I think Banta Cain gets most of the reps opposite Thomas - Woods simply is not ready for starter IMO but I would not be surprised to see Woods on 1st and 2nd down and Cain in on 3rd downs with Redd in the mix

 

[RayClay]

I concur.

Plus, we can't forget TBC, he will factor in if he makes the team. This team was the flu & a couple botched calls from making it to the SB in 2006 with TBC playing OLB.

Crable turning to a pass rushing beast this season would certainly help the cause. He may have it in him.

TBC was a healthy scratch except for Ladaian's footprints on his face.