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Breer on the Pats' Problems: secondary, pass rush, offensive line

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mayoclinic, Oct 25, 2012.

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  1. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  2. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #95 Jersey

    I wish we had a pass rush...jones is great..but only 1 man..
  3. Marqui

    Marqui Rookie

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    We have other guys that are doing a solid job too.
  4. hodgey

    hodgey Rookie

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    Bill has to recognize this team does not have the front 4 of the giants or 49ers and become a little creative with 5 or 6 man pressures and or zone blitz's.
  5. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  6. Sivy

    Sivy Rookie

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    Do I just have patriot colored glasses on all the time, or does Jones get held ALOT with no flags?
  7. Froob

    Froob Rookie

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    You mean we have another guy? Aside from Ninko who else has rushed the passer lol?
  8. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Only on defensive snaps. He's hardly held at all when our offense is on the field. Don't exaggerate.
  9. PatsGirl2011

    PatsGirl2011 Rookie

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    Its basically the same secondary and pass rush from last year. I think it was dumb to think you can count on two rookies to make the biggest difference. Arrington should have been gone...just plain awful!
  10. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Pretty much sums it up. I chuckle when I read one on one assessments like PFF makes that rate this OL in the top 10. That is what happens when you lack perspective in analysis.

    Nice observation on how Josh has developed into an outside in guy while BOB was an inside out guy. The difference in having Moss in 2007 and 2009 I'd bet had a lot to do with that differing style. BOB wanted an outside presence enough to get into it with Brady over coaching 'em up in game...but he never attempted to force feed him Ocho or some ST player... I'm sure everything Josh draws up on paper sounds genius. Problem is unless things work perfectly genius and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee and a stalled offense on the field when it matters. Probably sucks because if everyone was healthy and elitely talented it would probably all work out swimmingly. You have to be able to win when that isn't the case. Josh struggled with that in 2005 and 2006. Might have learned a few things during that time but 2007 likely got him overthinking. He needs to remember that it was followed by 2008. And his brief stints as a HC in Denver and OC in St. Louis.

    The secondary is a tough situation because you can't afford to consistently field a team full of pro bowlers and choices get made. We have a lot of developing talent in the front 7, including some later round draft picks. Just hasn't panned out in the secondary. I do think that decent corners could emerge even from the present mix if they could just find that savvy field general to play safety at a high level while directing traffic for the entire unit. Just think that locating that guy remains at least a season away.

    Ergo better get that offense more consistent and able to adapt to all challenges. That starts with stability in the trenches and the ability to pass and run block - including power run blocking - pretty consistently. And focusing a little less on paper scenarios and matchups and a little more on being consistently prepared to execute what we do best.
  11. Sivy

    Sivy Rookie

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    Well, Mayo did get called for a hold when he was sitting on the sideline so you never know what could happen in the nfl these days.
  12. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The OL's done a better job than expected, overall. But Waters and Light have definitely been missed, and Mankins and Vollmer have been banged up and have missed time, as well as Connolly. It would be miraculous not to have some dropoff. In fact, it's been somewhat miraculous that it hasn't been greater.
  13. jsull87

    jsull87 Rookie

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    Honestly a secondary coaching shake up would seem to be a pretty logical thing. We have had a few years now where we have had many a fan notice poor technique being shown by not just one but many of our CB's.

    In saying that i am still of the opinion this team needs a veteran presence there to help. E.G Grimes in FA e.t.c
  14. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Those executives are echoing what a lot of people here have been saying:

    Welker, not Lllllllllloyd is the WR1 (Gaffney)
    The TEs not being healthy is a huge deal
    The interior OL is an issue, especially with Mankins injured (Waters, possibly Koppen)
    DBs can't cover and the secondary blows in general (Landry)
    Brady is Brady
    Jones is not enough for the pass rush (Carter)

    The hell of it is that potential solutions to many, if not most, of these issues were available in the form of players that directly or indirectly might have helped this season , but the team couldn't/wouldn't get them in and/or cut them loose.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  15. Deus Irae

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    Also, Connolly's not good as a guard (should be center) and Wendell is an issue at center. Having Waters would have been a significant upgrade for two separate positions.
  16. VrabelJr

    VrabelJr Rookie

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    Anyone that thinks our OLine isn't Top 5 in the league is a spoiled rotten fan. Sure, it's not as good as last year but it is by no means an issue.

    When other teams have moving pieces at key OL positions that player gets exposed and picked on all game. We sit Mankins a couple times and Donald Thomas comes in and lights DTs and LBs up.

    Quit acting spoiled.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  17. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure it was quite that simple, Deus. Carter's recovery was an issue through this summer, and the team did go after Jonathan Fanene, whose undisclosed injury caught the team by surprise. That was a faux pas, but it wasn't a lack of effort. The Waters situation may or may not have been mishandled, but the team had ongoing conversations with him and apparently he turned down a "significant" pay raise offer, at least according to SMY. The team loaded up on linemen this offseason, but Matt Light retired, Robert Gallery decided his body couldn't take it any more, and Dan Koppen didn't have enough left in the tank to beat out the current guys on the roster. Aaron Hernandez' injury didn't occur until game 2 of the season. And I really don't think that Laron Landry was the solution to our coverage problems in the secondary.

    I'm not saying that every move was perfect. I'm not sure it's as straightforward as you suggest.
  18. Deus Irae

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    Executives from other teams are spoiled rotten Patriots fans now?
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Carter could have been signed and Francis could have been sent to the Practice squad.

    The Waters issue is a murky one, because we don't have the info, and I wasn't trying to assign or divy blame in my post, but was just noting that many of the issues would/could/should may have been non-issues. However, having Waters would mean that the interior O-line could have returned intact, with just the tackles being different.

    Light retired early, Gallery was looking done, and Koppen is now a starter in Denver. Unless they pissed light off, I've got no issue there. I've got no issue with the Gallery situation. I've got an issue with the Koppen situation, since Koppen was clearly (IMO) taking time to come back but improving, but it's one that wouldn't have mattered if Waters were back.

    Nothing they could do about the Hernandez injury, but Landry is a better safety than anyone on this team's roster. He's a rich man's Patrick Chung.

    The/some potential solutions to everything except the CB problems were there to be tried. The team couldn't (Waters?), or wouldn't (Waters?, Landry) make the moves needed to bring some in. With others, they chose to pass completely or not to wait on injury rehab (Carter, Gaffney, Koppen), while keeping a 500,000th TE (Shiancoe) around when he had to be shelved for almost half the season.

    It's straightforward stuff to me, in the sense of the solution/help player being right in front of them. Now, whether those players would have actually fixed the issues.... that's an unknown. All we can do is watch players like Carter, Koppen, Shiancoe, Landry and Gaffney, and speculate based upon what we see moving forward.
  20. Marqui

    Marqui Rookie

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    He's been great for the Jets, against the run and in coverage. Landry isn't Ed Reed but I think it's silly to say he wouldn't have helped stabilize the secondary.
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