Breer on departed Pats' success

[Box_O_Rocks]

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?p=1276

On Thursday, John passed along this story that analyzed league-wide perception that former Ravens crash and burn after leaving the Baltimore nest. Well, in case you haven’t noticed, the same perception exists with former Patriots.

So today, we thought we’d take a look at that. The truth? Most who leave here that have fallen apart could chalk that failure up to injury. Here’s what we got from the last three years:

 

[Wotan_the_Wanderer]

Not that their inclusion would have influenced the conclusion, but I think Breers should have included Drew, Lawyer, Tebucky and Terry Glen.

 

[JoeSixPat]

What? No Hank Poteat review?

OK so let's just play out the perception that players from the Pats and Ravens crash and burn once they leave that system.

If true, that would suggest that the system, rather than the player, is paramount, though everyone would acknowledge that talent is a significant factor.

No question a weakly coached team/system will reveal player flaws - but given the fact that AD is going from one strong system to another, all this analysis means little to us right now.

 

[RayClay]

I don't think it matters whether it's injury.

The Pats and Ravens manage personnel well so whether it's a talented, but limited player like Woody, who never met a buffet he didn't like or guys whose best years are behind them, these two teams make good personnel/business judgments.

If the Pats are patting themselves on the back for knowing when players are injured/in poor shape they better bow down to whatever team dropped the bad shoulder/bad wheels Stark on us.

That's the ultimate injury crash and burn right there.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't think it matters whether it's injury.

The Pats and Ravens manage personnel well so whether it's a talented, but limited player like Woody, who never met a buffet he didn't like or guys whose best years are behind them, these two teams make good personnel/business judgments.

If the Pats are patting themselves on the back for knowing when players are injured/in poor shape they better bow down to whatever team dropped the bad shoulder/bad wheels Stark on us.

That's the ultimate injury crash and burn right there.

They didn't break the bank for him though, they took a flyer that his attitude after finding out what football in the desert was like was part of the problem and being on a real team again would rejuvinate him. Then they lost the rejuvinator (Rodney) not to mention a whole lot of other veteran leadership like Tedy and LJ and early in the season Light and Koppen. The Starks experiment went belly up in part because he was playing on a bad team missing a lot of core leadership. And his problems were likely a little deeper seeded than he just needed a change of scenery.

 

[RayClay]

They didn't break the bank for him though, they took a flyer that his attitude after finding out what football in the desert was like was part of the problem and being on a real team again would rejuvinate him. Then they lost the rejuvinator (Rodney) not to mention a whole lot of other veteran leadership like Tedy and LJ and early in the season Light and Koppen. The Starks experiment went belly up in part because he was playing on a bad team missing a lot of core leadership. And his problems were likely a little deeper seeded than he just needed a change of scenery.

I'm actually a Starks defender because the guy tried to play on one arm and one leg.

I have to fault the Pats though, from what I can find out the guy was damaged goods with a lingering leg injury.

I don't have connections or anything and I think he injured the shoulder with us, but my best research says we gave a 3rd round pick for a player with an injured leg.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I'm actually a Starks defender because the guy tried to play on one arm and one leg.

I have to fault the Pats though, from what I can find out the guy was damaged goods with a lingering leg injury.

I don't have connections or anything and I think he injured the shoulder with us, but my best research says we gave a 3rd round pick for a player with an injured leg.

I think Rodney would disagree with your assessment of why Starks was a bust here. We have a medical staff and do our due diligence on these guys. They knew about the knee injury, but as his GM in AZ said that was healed although it likely cost him his burst or a step - without which they had little use for him. Belichick and the system can coach and scheme around that kind of deficit if the player buys in and puts in the effort to adapt and fully utilize his remaining skills. Starks didn't respond to the system, likely because the weight of the FA deal AZ had lavished on him prior to his injury just sapped his drive. Rodney said as much about him the day after he was placed on IR, and he wouldn't have said that about a guy who gave it his best shot only to be stymied by things (like lingering or new injuries) beyond his control. His struggles here preceded any shoulder injury. Otherwise he would have been brought back as were Beisel and Brown. They didn't perform any better than Starks did, but apparently it wasn't due to lack of effort, which is why they were brought back for a retry. Not every player any team signs works out. Gabriel had the talent and capacity to be a #2 here, but much like Starks he didn't want to succeed enough to conform to the system.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Ever since Ty Law brought it up years ago, I have had lingering doubts about the quality of the Pats meidcal staff. Also if you believe what Ted Johnson says concerning his being sent onto the field with a serious head injury, then you again have to wonder what is going on with the medical staff.

 

[RayClay]

I think Rodney would disagree with your assessment of why Starks was a bust here. We have a medical staff and do our due diligence on these guys. They knew about the knee injury, but as his GM in AZ said that was healed although it likely cost him his burst or a step - without which they had little use for him. Belichick and the system can coach and scheme around that kind of deficit if the player buys in and puts in the effort to adapt and fully utilize his remaining skills. Starks didn't respond to the system, likely because the weight of the FA deal AZ had lavished on him prior to his injury just sapped his drive. Rodney said as much about him the day after he was placed on IR, and he wouldn't have said that about a guy who gave it his best shot only to be stymied by things (like lingering or new injuries) beyond his control. His struggles here preceded any shoulder injury. Otherwise he would have been brought back as were Beisel and Brown. They didn't perform any better than Starks did, but apparently it wasn't due to lack of effort, which is why they were brought back for a retry. Not every player any team signs works out. Gabriel had the talent and capacity to be a #2 here, but much like Starks he didn't want to succeed enough to conform to the system.

They didn't plan on losing 6 DBs to the IR, but no matter how you slice it, they spent a third on a player who was still injured.

The only other possibility is they spent a third on a terrible player who was injured on top of it!

He was a speed player. Didn't you watch the games? He couldn't run. Damaged goods.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

They didn't plan on losing 6 DBs to the IR, but no matter how you slice it, they spent a third on a player who was still injured.

The only other possibility is they spent a third on a terrible player who was injured on top of it!

He was a speed player. Didn't you watch the games? He couldn't run. Damaged goods.

He may have been damaged goods, but he wasn't injured. Belichick could have coached him around the damage had he been coachable. If you read his comments today about the new players this season being special, and all showing up for the off season and mini camps even though they may have had other plans or committments - and then saying that acquisitions in the past didn't make that effort - well one who comes to mind immediately, and who I guarantee you BB was thinking back to was Duane Starks. After the trade he announced he would prefer to work at the U in the off season, not bonding with new teamates or learning the system.

BTW he had sufficient speed to run down more than one WR... from behind. What Duane lacked was initiative.

 

[RayClay]

He may have been damaged goods, but he wasn't injured. Belichick could have coached him around the damage had he been coachable. If you read his comments today about the new players this season being special, and all showing up for the off season and mini camps even though they may have had other plans or committments - and then saying that acquisitions in the past didn't make that effort - well one who comes to mind immediately, and who I guarantee you BB was thinking back to was Duane Starks. After the trade he announced he would prefer to work at the U in the off season, not bonding with new teamates or learning the system.

BTW he had sufficient speed to run down more than one WR... from behind. What Duane lacked was initiative.

He may have been damaged goods, but he wasn't injured.

I give up. I can't argue with that.

 

[Oswlek]

I give up. I can't argue with that.

Hell, when Monte Beisel is throwing barbs in your direction, it might be time to hang it up.

I would like to have seen Starks play without injury because he looked decent in preseason, but considering the clear anamosity towards him from the other players there was *clearly* something else there.

 

[RayClay]

Hell, when Monte Beisel is throwing barbs in your direction, it might be time to hang it up.

I would like to have seen Starks play without injury because he looked decent in preseason, but considering the clear anamosity towards him from the other players there was *clearly* something else there.

All I said was the Pats screwed up. He was injured at least.

If he was a bad player or had a bad attitude they should have known that too.

If so, they double screwed up. Doesn't invalidate anything I said. They aggressively sought him and spent a third.

Monty Beisel??

 

[Oswlek]

All I said was the Pats screwed up. He was injured at least.

If he was a bad player or had a bad attitude they should have known that too.

If so, they double screwed up. Doesn't invalidate anything I said. They aggressively sought him and spent a third.

Monty Beisel??

I agree that they made a mistake, but this statement runs counter to what you just wrote:

I'm actually a Starks defender because the guy tried to play on one arm and one leg.

That implies that you felt that Starks was only at fault due to injury and that he put it all on the line. From everything that players have said I believe that there was a lot more to the Starks story than just a guy playing poorly due to pain. I have no idea what else there is, just a feeling that there is more.

And Monte Beisel sent a not-so-subtle shot towards the secondary one time when reporters were giving him grief, something along the lines of "don't look at the LBs for the defenses problems".

 

[RayClay]

I agree that they made a mistake, but this statement runs counter to what you just wrote:



That implies that you felt that Starks was only at fault due to injury and that he put it all on the line. From everything that players have said I believe that there was a lot more to the Starks story than just a guy playing poorly due to pain. I have no idea what else there is, just a feeling that there is more.

And Monte Beisel sent a not-so-subtle shot towards the secondary one time when reporters were giving him grief, something along the lines of "don't look at the LBs for the defenses problems".

The Patriots put 6 defensive backs on IR that year. They had a completely healthy Ellis Hobbs available, yet they played Starks instead even though he had very recently been on their own injury list. Why?

Because they didn't want Hobbs to get bad habits and Tyrone Pool won't play injured.

They opted to play an injured Starks because he was willing. It's documented he had leg injuries with the Cardinals and he was an injured DNP leading up to the time in question.

He had massive shoulder surgery after the season.

I stand my my argument.

 

[RayClay]

Rodney made a statement out of frustration and I haven't seen it quoted here.

Beisel was trying to use the depleted secondary (6 on IR) as an excuse for his play, Monty Beisel!!:bricks:

Essentially, everything I said is wrong because of one Rodney Harrison quote.

I remember the quote too. It doesn't change any of the facts.