Breaking Down The LB Corps

[RobertWeathers]

I think it was too steep. Looking blindly from the outside, I would have walked away.


BUT


BB knows how he feels about his OLB position, and he's been on-site to watch it playing out. My guess, given the combination of his offseason pursuit of another OLB and this willingness to give up as much for a rental player as he did, is that he really didn't like what he had at OLB and thought it was an absolute need trade, so he was willing to overpay. I think it's telling to see that the team in competition for Burgess was a Philly team that lost a starting linebacker for the season just a couple of days ago, because I think it shows desperation/anxiety played a significant part in BB's decision, given that he gave up more than that Eagles team.

P.S. I recognize the position that Burgess would have been playing in Philly is not the OLB position, but I look at the pursuit of him coupled with the signing of Wilhelm as a bit of a pairing pass rush with LB play to make up for the loss at MLB.

Bottom line is that BB mitigated a risk that he considered to be a big one. The cost to him was equal/less than the risk. With AD being the only pass rush threat at OLB, teams will be rolling protection to his side. Crable is in the tub, TBC is situational, Woods i expect is solid, but not a pass rushing threat and nevetheless is not established.

He obviously puts a good amount of weight on a pass rush so couple risk + perceived value and a 3rd and 5th is worth it.

my .02$

 

[cstjohn17]

Bottom line is that BB mitigated a risk that he considered to be a big one. The cost to him was equal/less than the risk. With AD being the only pass rush threat at OLB, teams will be rolling protection to his side. Crable is in the tub, TBC is situational, Woods i expect is solid, but not a pass rushing threat and nevetheless is not established.

He obviously puts a good amount of weight on a pass rush so couple risk + perceived value and a 3rd and 5th is worth it.

my .02$

Thank god he did.

Not that things were dire but this is a championhip team with a HOF coach and QB in their prime. Sends a clear message "we are going for it" instead of "Lets see how the youngins develop or I think TBC is a solid NFL player'

If you look at the cost (draft picks) directly against the player they received, IMO they over paid. But in the context of a potential weakness in a Superbowl worthy squad, then I say 'Hell Yes'.

Looking at the offseason trades (Cassell, Hobbs, Burgess) it is easy to argue that the Pats did not get maximum value (on a deal by deal basis) but in light of the overall roster and the team's goals they clearly established themselves as a team that is open for business and will be proactive in improving the team.

Well done boys! Now all we need is some football!

 

[Ring 6]

I think it was too steep. Looking blindly from the outside, I would have walked away.


BUT


BB knows how he feels about his OLB position, and he's been on-site to watch it playing out. My guess, given the combination of his offseason pursuit of another OLB and this willingness to give up as much for a rental player as he did, is that he really didn't like what he had at OLB and thought it was an absolute need trade, so he was willing to overpay. I think it's telling to see that the team in competition for Burgess was a Philly team that lost a starting linebacker for the season just a couple of days ago, because I think it shows desperation/anxiety played a significant part in BB's decision, given that he gave up more than that Eagles team.

P.S. I recognize the position that Burgess would have been playing in Philly is not the OLB position, but I look at the pursuit of him coupled with the signing of Wilhelm as a bit of a pairing pass rush with LB play to make up for the loss at MLB.

Fair enough. I disagree.
I have said I think its foolish to expect Burgess to be a full time, every down OLB in a 2 gap 34 when he has never done that before. What he is going to fill is the passrushing portion of that role. We did not acquire him to improve our run defense by teaching him a new position and hoping he is good at it.
We acquired him to fill the primary need we have, rushing the passer out of the nickel/dime.
Some fans seem to want to belittle that role, and I don't know why. It is a critical position. It is a guy who is on the field for half the snaps, which is a large amount. And it is the most apparent weakness we had before bringing him in.
If Burgess never makes a tackle vs the run, and complements AD to give us a fierce pass rush in the sub package, this was a great trade.
Putting him on the field in the base, where he essentially can only rush just puts AD in coverage and weakens our run D, so he will play in the base, but not a lot.

All that said, I think the price is fine. In other words, it would be great to have spent less, but the choice was improve the pass rush or draft 2 players next year. I think that the value of those 2 picks is far less than the value of the bolstered pass rush we will have this year.

I felt the OLB and pass rush group was workable, but saw room for imporvement in nickel and dime pass rush. It seems you were more confident than me about the grouping.

 

[Ring 6]

Thank god he did.

Not that things were dire but this is a championhip team with a HOF coach and QB in their prime. Sends a clear message "we are going for it" instead of "Lets see how the youngins develop or I think TBC is a solid NFL player'

If you look at the cost (draft picks) directly against the player they received, IMO they over paid. But in the context of a potential weakness in a Superbowl worthy squad, then I say 'Hell Yes'.

Looking at the offseason trades (Cassell, Hobbs, Burgess) it is easy to argue that the Pats did not get maximum value (on a deal by deal basis) but in light of the overall roster and the team's goals they clearly established themselves as a team that is open for business and will be proactive in improving the team.

Well done boys! Now all we need is some football!

IWho exactly are they sending this clear message to? And why is it necessary/what does it accomplsh?

 

[Deus Irae]

I felt the OLB and pass rush group was workable, but saw room for imporvement in nickel and dime pass rush. It seems you were more confident than me about the grouping.

Actually, I was taking my cue from Belichick, since I haven't seen the OLBs in the offseason. I'd noted, both personally and on this board, that BB had been looking at Taylor, Ellis and Burgess, so I wasn't opposed to the notion that BB wanted to upgrade that position.

I think this trade, and the high price paid (and despite the claims of some, it was a very high price for a BB trade), shows that the concerns at OLB were great. Frankly, it supports RayClay's constant pounding of the drum. This team gave away Vrabel and Cassel for just a second, and they just dropped a 3rd and 4th/5th for a player that may be just a part-timer.

That says a great deal to me about the team's level of anxiety at the OLB position.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, I was taking my cue from Belichick, since I haven't seen the OLBs in the offseason. I'd noted, both personally and on this board, that BB had been looking at Taylor, Ellis and Burgess, so I wasn't opposed to the notion that BB wanted to upgrade that position.

I think this trade, and the high price paid (and despite the claims of some, it was a very high price for a BB trade), shows that the concerns at OLB were great. Frankly, it supports RayClay's constant pounding of the drum. This team gave away Vrabel and Cassel for just a second, and they just dropped a 3rd and 4th/5th for a player that may be just a part-timer.

That says a great deal to me about the team's level of anxiety at the OLB position.

Part time in a terribly critical role. In fact, his value as a nickel/dime DE alone is more critical than many starters, particularly because of our need there.
Vrabel had no value because of his contract. We in effect cut him to the Chiefs.
Cassel was under the tag.
There is a big difference in what you are willing to give in trade for 20mill of cap hit, or 1.5mill of cap hit.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Fair enough. I disagree.
I have said I think its foolish to expect Burgess to be a full time, every down OLB in a 2 gap 34 when he has never done that before. What he is going to fill is the passrushing portion of that role. We did not acquire him to improve our run defense by teaching him a new position and hoping he is good at it.
We acquired him to fill the primary need we have, rushing the passer out of the nickel/dime.
Some fans seem to want to belittle that role, and I don't know why. It is a critical position. It is a guy who is on the field for half the snaps, which is a large amount. And it is the most apparent weakness we had before bringing him in.
If Burgess never makes a tackle vs the run, and complements AD to give us a fierce pass rush in the sub package, this was a great trade.
Putting him on the field in the base, where he essentially can only rush just puts AD in coverage and weakens our run D, so he will play in the base, but not a lot.

All that said, I think the price is fine. In other words, it would be great to have spent less, but the choice was improve the pass rush or draft 2 players next year. I think that the value of those 2 picks is far less than the value of the bolstered pass rush we will have this year.

I felt the OLB and pass rush group was workable, but saw room for imporvement in nickel and dime pass rush. It seems you were more confident than me about the grouping.

Couldn't agree more. It seemed that in nickel/Dime sets in 07, BB would have AD on one side and either Vrable/Colvin on the other and rotate accordingly.
If a team is passing 35 times a game and there are a total of 60 plays on ave that the D is on the field and BB has Burgess in on 80% of the pas plays, thats 28 snaps he is out there for and almost 50% of the total D snaps.

Good enough 4 me.

 

[Deus Irae]

Part time in a terribly critical role. In fact, his value as a nickel/dime DE alone is more critical than many starters, particularly because of our need there.
Vrabel had no value because of his contract. We in effect cut him to the Chiefs.
Cassel was under the tag.
There is a big difference in what you are willing to give in trade for 20mill of cap hit, or 1.5mill of cap hit.

In other words, they paid due to anxiety. That's precisely what I'm saying when I talk about too much but understanding the different perspective, yet people are acting as if I'm pushing their elderly relatives down the stairs.

 

[Ring 6]

Couldn't agree more. It seemed that in nickel/Dime sets in 07, BB would have AD on one side and either Vrable/Colvin on the other and rotate accordingly.
If a team is passing 35 times a game and there are a total of 60 plays on ave that the D is on the field and BB has Burgess in on 80% of the pas plays, thats 28 snaps he is out there for and almost 50% of the total D snaps.

Good enough 4 me.

They are a pretty important 50% too.
Its funny how people overstate and bemoan any issues (we can never stop anyone on 3rd down, red zone defense sucks, qbas have all day to throw) then undervalue the problem when it gets addressed.
I'll take 20 pass rushes and no run defending from him if they are 20 effective pass rushes, because that will keep points of the board, and the defense off the field.
We didn;t trade a 3rd round pick for an entire defense, just a piece of it.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Actually, I was taking my cue from Belichick, since I haven't seen the OLBs in the offseason. I'd noted, both personally and on this board, that BB had been looking at Taylor, Ellis and Burgess, so I wasn't opposed to the notion that BB wanted to upgrade that position.

I think this trade, and the high price paid (and despite the claims of some, it was a very high price for a BB trade), shows that the concerns at OLB were great. Frankly, it supports RayClay's constant pounding of the drum. This team gave away Vrabel and Cassel for just a second, and they just dropped a 3rd and 4th/5th for a player that may be just a part-timer.

That says a great deal to me about the team's level of anxiety at the OLB position.

All it tells me is that Vrabel was not the answer as an aging 34 year old OLB who had lost the crucical step to get around OL. Anyone who watched him in 2008 could tell that he had 'lost it'.

It also tells me that the Pats were not content to have Woods as the starting OLB opposite Thomas. Otherwise they would not have entered into serious discussions with Jason Taylor, been rumored to be interested in Peppers, and had been talking with the Raiders about acquiring Burgess since the 2009 draft.

I don't see any desperation, 'anxiety', or panic in their moves. They wanted to upgrade the position since the end of 2008, they explored all possible avenues to upgrade that position, and in the end they got their man for a pair of late SECOND DAY picks.

 

[Ring 6]

In other words, they paid due to anxiety. That's precisely what I'm saying when I talk about too much but understanding the different perspective, yet people are acting as if I'm pushing their elderly relatives down the stairs.

I dont know why you think that. I suppose it could be the arrogance you imply in your posts???

If we accept your belief that the price was too high, then perhaps it is due to anxiety.
If we accept it as fair, then anxiety is not a factor.

I actually think BB was overly patient about addressing this position, so I don't actually see a valid claim of panic motivating the move.

 

[JSn]

I dont know why you think that. I suppose it could be the arrogance you imply in your posts???

If we accept your belief that the price was too high, then perhaps it is due to anxiety.
If we accept it as fair, then anxiety is not a factor.

I actually think BB was overly patient about addressing this position, so I don't actually see a valid claim of panic motivating the move.

I agree, and I think Bill might see Woods needing another year of prep work and training to become an every down OLB. Nothing wrong with this move, imo. We have 3 second rounders next year. After this draft, I think with four day one picks, we're looking ok without those two picks next year.

 

[Deus Irae]

I dont know why you think that. I suppose it could be the arrogance you imply in your posts???

If we accept your belief that the price was too high, then perhaps it is due to anxiety.
If we accept it as fair, then anxiety is not a factor.

I actually think BB was overly patient about addressing this position, so I don't actually see a valid claim of panic motivating the move.

Taylor
Ellis
Burgess

3 well known attempts at getting the OLB, starting from the very beginning of free agency, and this is 'overly patient'? Clearly, this conversation is not going to go anywhere because we're just going to go back and forth.

 

[JSn]

Taylor
Ellis
Burgess

3 well known attempts at getting the OLB, starting from the very beginning of free agency, and this is 'overly patient'? Clearly, this conversation is not going to go anywhere because we're just going to go back and forth.

I think the patience is measured by whether you think we paid too much (which you do).

I get what Andy is saying, though. We didn't hurl money and picks at these guys in a panic. Likely of those three guys, Burgess was the #2 choice and they got him. Not so bad, imo.

 

[RobertWeathers]

They are a pretty important 50% too.
Its funny how people overstate and bemoan any issues (we can never stop anyone on 3rd down, red zone defense sucks, qbas have all day to throw) then undervalue the problem when it gets addressed.
I'll take 20 pass rushes and no run defending from him if they are 20 effective pass rushes, because that will keep points of the board, and the defense off the field.
We didn;t trade a 3rd round pick for an entire defense, just a piece of it.

Games & championships are won/lost on a few plays a game. Sack, strip/sack fumble, INT, 3rd stop on 3rd 15, FG instead of a TD...

If Burgess can provide pressure and make a QB throw the ball off-balance into the waiting arms of Leigh Bodden who goes 70yds for a TD, he just paid for himself 1000 times over.

 

[Bostonian1962]

Fair enough. I disagree.
I have said I think its foolish to expect Burgess to be a full time, every down OLB in a 2 gap 34 when he has never done that before. What he is going to fill is the passrushing portion of that role. We did not acquire him to improve our run defense by teaching him a new position and hoping he is good at it.
We acquired him to fill the primary need we have, rushing the passer out of the nickel/dime.
Some fans seem to want to belittle that role, and I don't know why. It is a critical position. It is a guy who is on the field for half the snaps, which is a large amount. And it is the most apparent weakness we had before bringing him in.
If Burgess never makes a tackle vs the run, and complements AD to give us a fierce pass rush in the sub package, this was a great trade.
Putting him on the field in the base, where he essentially can only rush just puts AD in coverage and weakens our run D, so he will play in the base, but not a lot.

All that said, I think the price is fine. In other words, it would be great to have spent less, but the choice was improve the pass rush or draft 2 players next year. I think that the value of those 2 picks is far less than the value of the bolstered pass rush we will have this year.

I felt the OLB and pass rush group was workable, but saw room for imporvement in nickel and dime pass rush. It seems you were more confident than me about the grouping.

AJ, I agree with you. They basically got Burgess for a 3rd Round Pick, and I don't care too much about the 5th. Big deal. However, if we're all honest with ourselves, isn't this like any other trade, in that we'll know if it was good or not later. If Burgess ends up with 11 sacks in the regular season, and 4 in the post season, including the game winning sack for a safety, with 4 seconds left in the Super Bowl, won't EVERYBODY be saying: Damn good trade!? None of us really know yet. Well, I do. But, I'm not at liberty to say.

 

[Ring 6]

Taylor
Ellis
Burgess

3 well known attempts at getting the OLB, starting from the very beginning of free agency, and this is 'overly patient'? Clearly, this conversation is not going to go anywhere because we're just going to go back and forth.

We felt we could upgrade the position, those guys were on the market and we talked with them. Of course its going nowhere because the only perspective you consider, other than to belittle them, is your own.
You keep wanting to draw a conclusion then squeeze the facts in to fit it.

Taylor.....we did NOT sign him. The 'hot pursuit' I remember was Bob Kraft saying 'he's a good player if he wanted to come here im sure we could find a place for him'
Ellis.....we did NOT trade for him. The 'hot pursuit' was unconfirmed rumors that we were in the mix, and speculation from message bopard posters that we must have been.
Burgess....in would appear the 'trade talks' went on for 4-5 months.
Yeah, that sounds like an all out panicked effort to get someone at any cost.

 

[cstjohn17]

IWho exactly are they sending this clear message to? And why is it necessary/what does it accomplsh?

To me and other internet 'experts'... although the actions peak louder than any words. OLB needed to be upgraded and they took care of it. The LB conversation is done.

 

[Ring 6]

To me and other internet 'experts'... although the actions peak louder than any words. OLB needed to be upgraded and they took care of it. The LB conversation is done.

Yeah.
Thats the funny part to me.
If the fans perceive a problem, the team is 'serious about winning' if they address it.
But then the season plays out and what actually happens is tremendously different than what the consensus expected.
I guess thats the beauty of a message board, you get to tell them what to do, cirticize them when they dont, and take credit for knowing when they do.

 

[Ring 6]

Looks like the 'deusappearing act' is happening again.

At least yesterday there was a blatant and obvious instance of being 100% totally wrong to run away from. Today, I guess its just the general board reaction to your attitude?