Brandon Tate -Thoughts?

[Kontradiction]

Oh No. We are starting the Big Receiver Envy so soon....haven't we tried that experiment already?

Yeah, and it took us to our last Super Bowl. The trick is to find a big receiver that's a team first guy (which Moss was) and is not on the verge of a massive psychological breakdown.

 

[Jangles]

In his first full season after 2 years out.

He made some tremendous catches and showed some great freelance plays with Brady as the year went on.

He's got a knack of getting open like Ben Watson but if Brady doesn't trust you, you're screwed

What's to trust?

Brady may as well just throw the ball into the ground than risk Tate deflecting it into the defenses hands.

 

[JackBauer]

What's to trust?

Brady may as well just throw the ball into the ground than risk Tate deflecting it into the defenses hands.

It's tough to take you seriously when you exaggerate to this extent.

Tate obviously didn't emerge as we'd hoped, but there's a long list of elite NFL wide receivers who took several years to develop. That's not to say Tate will, only that the jury's still out. Still, I don't think it'd be prudent to rely on him next year.

 

[ATippett56]

I can imagine what this message board would say if we turned back the clock to the end of 2002 NFL Season. David Givens only caught nine passes. He's a frickin' JAG!

David Givens, WR at NFL.com

We need to draft a wide receiver with speed!

Bethel Johnson, WR at NFL.com

 

[RobertWeathers]

I can imagine what this message board would say if we turned back the clock to the end of 2002 NFL Season. David Givens only caught nine passes. He's a frickin' JAG!

David Givens, WR at NFL.com

We need to draft a wide receiver with speed!

Bethel Johnson, WR at NFL.com

I remember a 2002 game vs the Jets at home that Givens was wide open in the end zone and dropped the ball. I recall saying to myself that this guy had no chance of making the team next year.

I also thought after his rookie season, Chad Jackson had a good future ahead of him.

I thought Edelman was going to be outstanding this year.

I thought in time, Bethel Johnson was going to be another Alvin Harper.

In other words, I have no clue what I am talking about.

What I do know is that you need to let the kids get reps and see how their skills develop and respond to adversity.

 

[Deus Irae]

I can imagine what this message board would say if we turned back the clock to the end of 2002 NFL Season. David Givens only caught nine passes. He's a frickin' JAG!

David Givens, WR at NFL.com

We need to draft a wide receiver with speed!

Bethel Johnson, WR at NFL.com

Givens was JAG in 2002, and he started only 5 games in 2003. The Patriots brought in competition for the WR spot for the 2003 team, including Patten, Stokes and Ward, as well as drafting Johnson. Given that, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Frankly, with regards to Givens, 2002/2003 is a perfect example of what some of us want repeated.

Bring in legitimate competition for the wideout jobs, and look for a speed/deep receiver to keep the safeties honest.

 

[BlueThunder]

what happened? Well, they didnt win a SB with that offense either.
Besides, I don't want to see them go back to Tommy holding the ball for an hour waiting for the next Moss to get open. I like our current offense, but i'd like to see the running game involved more.

THIS:

Grab a RB that is a threat to break the big one at any time....BJGE for the needed tough yards and Woody for the change of pace.....Let the opposing defenses play 6 or 7 DB's ...that will stop soon enough the first time a RB gets a long run on them...somebody mentioned that nobody fears BJGE breaking the long run...it's better to give him 4 or 5 yds than letting a WR get 20+.

Give Tate a chance...

Price gets his chance next season after having a full TC and a season on the bench learning this year.

 

[ATippett56]

Givens was JAG in 2002, and he started only 5 games in 2003. The Patriots brought in competition for the WR spot for the 2003 team, including Patten, Stokes and Ward, as well as drafting Johnson.

David Patten signed a contract with the New England Patriots prior to the 2001 NFL Season. J.J. Stokes was on the downhill side of his career, and as a matter of fact, 2003 was his last season in the NFL. Dedric Ward was on the downhill side of his career, since he only caught eight passes in his last two seasons, 2004 was his last season in the NFL.

Given that, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Frankly, with regards to Givens, 2002/2003 is a perfect example of what some of us want repeated.

The New England Patriots have much greater priorities in the 2011 NFL Draft than wide receiver. In addition, it normally takes two to three years for a wide receiver to develop in the NFL straight from the collegiate ranks. David Givens career is a perfect example of that increase in productivity with gained experience over time.

Bring in legitimate competition for the wideout jobs, and look for a speed/deep receiver to keep the safeties honest.

The unrestricted free agent market should suffice.

 

[ausbacker]

Given the play of some rookie wideouts I've not been impressed with any phase of Tate's play during the season. How much of that is because of Tom Brady and how much of that is on Tate is unknown.

 

[Deus Irae]

David Patten signed a contract with the New England Patriots prior to the 2001 NFL Season. J.J. Stokes was on the downhill side of his career, and as a matter of fact, 2003 was his last season in the NFL. Dedric Ward was on the downhill side of his career, since he only caught eight passes in his last two seasons, 2004 was his last season in the NFL.

The point about Patten was the competition for the spot from within (I.E. Price). The point about Stokes and Ward is the bringing in of free agent receivers. The point about Johnson is the drafting of a speed/deep receiver. I guess I wasn't clear enough in my earlier post, so my apologies for that.

The New England Patriots have much greater priorities in the 2011 NFL Draft than wide receiver. In addition, it normally takes two to three years for a wide receiver to develop in the NFL straight from the collegiate ranks. David Givens career is a perfect example of that increase in productivity with gained experience over time.

No, the Patriots really don't.

DE
OLB
OG
WR/RB

Those should be the top priorities for the team. That's 5 slots, with 6 picks in the first 3 rounds, and OG is generally a position that can be looked for in the rounds 2-4 range.

As for the rookie thing, that assertion has been dealt with enough times that it's a waste to repeat it. Suffice it to say that recent drafts show that rookie wide receivers can equal, or exceed the production level that Tate reached this past year.

The unrestricted free agent market should suffice.

I'm not sure what you're basing that on, since the Patriots have very clearly been hit or miss in that department.

 

[ATippett56]

Given the play of some rookie wideouts I've not been impressed with any phase of Tate's play during the season. How much of that is because of Tom Brady and how much of that is on Tate is unknown.

Brandon Tate was selected one spot ahead of Mike Wallace in the third round of the 2009 NFL Draft.

National Football League: NFL Draft History

Since 2002, the New England Patriots have a poor track record of selecting wide receivers in the NFL Draft.

National Football League: NFL Draft History - by Team

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Actually Gaffney caught 41 passes in his first year in the NFL, 40 in 2007 with us and in 2010 w/ the Broncos he caught 65 passes for 875 yards. That's nothing to scoff at. His 11 catch season with us was in 2006 when he came on late and only played 9 games and the offense was never really in sink.

Sorry if I was unclear. I meant his time with us. There was a lot of talk last season about what a mistake it was to let him get away. You're right though, he had better seasons before and after, and actually had quite a good rookie season.

Thanks for the post, I was wondering how long it took good receivers to develop. Moss and rice are an exception I guess. Are Good hands more important than speed? just curious how they evaluate talent early on.

Well young WRs are so hard to project. If you look at the history of the draft, they're filled with busts, and then you get guys like Wes Welker going undrafted. I wouldn't say hands are more important than speed, or that speed is more important than hands. And some guys have both but still fail. It's just a difficult projection to make.

Most of the talented guys are used to just outrunning everyone in college. But you can't do that in the NFL (unless you're Randy Moss in his prime), so the rest have to learn to run better routes, which comes down to work ethic.

If Randy Moss lost both of his hands I'd still take him over Tate

Guy is absolutely terrible at playing wide receiver

I think you're getting a bit carried away...

 

[chicowalker]

I'm not going to pretend to know whether Tate will pan out. I only see the games on tv, which limits how much you can see, and even if I had coaches' tapes, I'd be guessing at what happened on any # of disconnects b/t Tate and Brady.

The only issue I had w/Tate this year was how bad he looked returning kicks after the first 1/3 or so of the season. No idea why, but he seemed to get tackled by the first defender frequently. (Not sure if the stats would bear out a decreased performance, also not sure if the 2 TD returns may have made his start seem better than it was on the rest of the returns.)

But by the last few games I was wondering if Edelman can return kicks.

 

[ATippett56]

No, the Patriots really don't.

DE
OLB
OG
WR/RB

Those should be the top priorities for the team.

Offensive tackle is a higher priority than wide receiver or running back.

As for the rookie thing, that assertion has been dealt with enough times that it's a waste to repeat it. Suffice it to say that recent drafts show that rookie wide receivers can equal, or exceed the production level that Tate reached this past year.

The New England Patriots have not hit on one receiver since the 2002 NFL Draft. That's not a good track record.

I'm not sure what you're basing that on, since the Patriots have very clearly been hit or miss in that department.

Jabar Gaffney has been more productive in the Patriots offense than any wide receiver drafted since the 2002 tandem of Branch/Givens. Donte Stallworth and Reche Caldwell for one season were both more productive than Bethel Johnson, P.K. Sam, Chad Jackson in any of their seasons. In addition, the New England Patriots traded up in the second round to grab Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson.

 

[Deus Irae]

Offensive tackle is a higher priority than wide receiver or running back.

No, it's not. Unless the team lets Light walk without any replacement, offensive tackle is not a high priority at all.

The New England Patriots have not hit on one receiver since the 2002 NFL Draft. That's not a good track record.

One could argue that they've hit on Edelman, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this, particularly since you're essentially saying that you want them to keep Tate, another Patriots WR draft pick, around. If you really want to put your money where your mouth is on this one, you should be arguing for Edelman, Price and Tate to be gotten rid of immediately.

Also, this "since the 2002 draft" is very misleading. Bethel Johnson, P.K. Sam and Chad Jackson are the only 3 taken prior to Tate and Price, since Slater was obviously taken as a special teams player. You're assigning a track record to a 3 player set as if it has real meaning. They've certainly missed on more than 3 free agent wide receivers during that same time span.

Jabar Gaffney has been more productive in the Patriots offense than any wide receiver drafted since the 2002 tandem of Branch/Givens. Donte Stallworth and Reche Caldwell for one season were both more productive than Bethel Johnson, P.K. Sam, Chad Jackson in any of their seasons. In addition, the New England Patriots traded up in the second round to grab Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson.

So what? How was Donald Hayes? How were Stokes, Ward, Holt and Washington? For a trade, how was Mr. Gabriel?

 

[ATippett56]

No, it's not. Unless the team lets Light walk without any replacement, offensive tackle is not a high priority at all.

We agree to disagree on this one. I stated my in case in another thread concerning this topic. Oh by way, LeVoir and Ojinnaka are stiffs!

One could argue that they've hit on Edelman, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this, particularly since you're essentially saying that you want them to keep Tate, another Patriots WR draft pick, around. If you really want to put your money where your mouth is on this one, you should be arguing for Edelman, Price and Tate to be gotten rid of immediately.

Edelman only had seven receptions this season yet you complain about Tate's production?

Also, this "since the 2002 draft" is very misleading. Bethel Johnson, P.K. Sam and Chad Jackson are the only 3 taken prior to Tate and Price, since Slater was obviously taken as a special teams player. You're assigning a track record to a 3 player set as if it has real meaning. They've certainly missed on more than 3 free agent wide receivers during that same time span.

Johnson, Sam, Jackson versus Gaffney, Caldwell, Stallworth; no comparison whatsoever with regard to production in the passing offense.

How was Donald Hayes?

How was David Patten?

How were Stokes, Ward, Holt?

Relics in the twilight of their careers. How about going after a wide receiver who just became eligible in unrestricted free agency instead?

For a trade, how was Mr. Gabriel?

Panic city baby just like trading a third and fifth for Derrick Burgess.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm not sure that I see the logic in "because the Pats suck at drafting WRs, they shouldn't draft a WR. Instead they should assume that the WRs that they previously drafted will become good."

 

[Deus Irae]

We agree to disagree on this one. I stated my in case in another thread concerning this topic. Oh by way, LeVoir and Ojinnaka are stiffs!

Yes, they are. I've been saying that since they were brought in. However, Kaczur is not. The team has a 3 tackle rotation of Light/Vollmer/Kaczur, that's more than adequate for a top three.

Edelman only had seven receptions this season yet you complain about Tate's production?

Edelman was playing behind Welker. Tate was a starter. While I'm not sold on Edelman, he clearly showed as a viable option in his rookie season, which is more than Tate accomplished this year. Tate this year was barely more productive than Aikens last year. That's not acceptable, because of what's required of him in his role.

Johnson, Sam, Jackson versus Gaffney, Caldwell, Stallworth; no comparison whatsoever with regard to production in the passing offense.

Stallworth was a #13 pick overall, and Gaffney was taken at #33. Caldwell is at least arguable, but those two? Come on.

How was David Patten?

Fine, but he's in the minority. The team has more misses than hits when it comes to free agent wideouts.

Relics in the twilight of their careers. How about going after a wide receiver who just became eligible in unrestricted free agency instead?

Donald Hayes was only 27. That ended up being the twilight of his career.

Panic city baby just like trading a third and fifth for Derrick Burgess.

I agree, but that's not the point. The point is that the team needs to use all available avenues, unless a theoretical "sure thing" is found in one manner on another. Now, if the team brings in Vincent Jackson or Sidney Rice while keeping Welker (cross thread reference), I'm down with the notion that there's no need to draft a WR in the top rounds.

 

[ATippett56]

I'm not sure that I see the logic in "because the Pats suck at drafting WRs, they shouldn't draft a WR. Instead they should assume that the WRs that they previously drafted will become good."

Ask yourself how many rookie wide receivers in the history of the NFL gained 1,000 yards receiving?

As for free agent wide receivers:

Santonio Holmes
Sidney Rice
Vincent Jackson
James Jones

2011 NFL Free Agents: WR

 

[ATippett56]

Now, if the team brings in Vincent Jackson or Sidney Rice while keeping Welker (cross thread reference), I'm down with the notion that there's no need to draft a WR in the top rounds.

Now you are talking my language!

2011 NFL Free Agents: WR