Brandon Lloyd

[Brady_to_Moss]

I like Lloyd but I think he's too damn slow. He looked great last night but I think he's only good for circus catches because of his speed. Pats should look for a good young speedy receiver during the offseason instead of more slow veterans.

i guess you missed the play he burned the CB down the sidelines

 

[skspikex2]

I like Lloyd but I think he's too damn slow. He looked great last night but I think he's only good for circus catches because of his speed. Pats should look for a good young speedy receiver during the offseason instead of more slow veterans.

Did you even watch the game?

 

[BananaRepublican]

I have always said a deep threat is overrated and an outside receiver is far more necessary.

I'll buy that (assuming the price is right.)

 

[BananaRepublican]

Let's not forget that using Lloyd and Woodhead heavily was a result of playing situational football. It doesn't mean Tom finally woke up or that Lloyd finally woke up.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Let's not forget that using Lloyd and Woodhead heavily was a result of playing situational football. It doesn't mean Tom finally woke up or that Lloyd finally woke up.

I think the idea that either of them was asleep is most likely off base.

 

[RayClay]

Nice to see that breakout game, that will loosen things up once gronk gets back.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I know people wanted him to be a deep threat (he is getting some plays there now), but he is really helping to free up the center of the field by drawing coverage to the outside.

I have always said a deep threat is overrated and an outside receiver is far more necessary. Lloyd is that guy.

The Deep Threat is the spice and the short pass the meat of a complete gourmet offensive meal.

In an extreme situation, we need only go back to the Reche Caldwell era to illustrate that the deep threat should not be underestimated. The opposing defense wisely collapsed on the offense during that season and that made every aspect of the offense more difficult and left Brady more vulnerable to hits with defenses able to line up close to the line.

Did Reche still catch over 60 passes as our leading WR and did the Patriots still have a chance to seriously contend? Yes - and many Patsfans stated that we were actually "all set" at WR for the following season.

What happend? Belichick disagreed and brought in not one, but two proven deep threats in Moss and Stallworth and the previous year's #1 WR didn't even make the team in 2007 (or anyone else's team for that matter)

Going into the playoffs with a credible deep threat is essential to the success of Welker, Hernandez, Gronk and the running game. Oh sure, statistically they will always get their receptions - but it's the few "must make" plays where having the defense stretched makes the difference between making a first down and not making a first down at a critical time.

I would say that McDaniels and Brady have both made note of past mistakes in this area and that they have made a special point of integrating Lloyd into the deep game to ensure defenses remain honest in the playoffs.

This won't necessarily show up in the gross stats of receptions, yards or even points - but it will make a difference in gaining 3 yards when you absolutely MUST gain those 3 yards, and thus will show up in the W-L stat - and hopefully in a Super Bowl win.

So let's not under-rate the importance of a deep threat either!

 

[Uncle Rico]

once gronk comes back..this O should humm

Last night was the first time where I really felt his absence was the difference in a game (well, I guess winning all the other games is a factor there!) Still, 34 points against the Niners isn't bad. Adding Gronk to that is a very good thing.

I saw on twitter that Brady has the same yards per catch now as he did when Randy Moss was with the team. Can't verify that myself though.

I saw that too, one of the writers re-tweeted it. The overall stats — yardage, TDs, INTs, YPA, % — were remarkably similar

i guess you missed the play he burned the CB down the sidelines

Awesome play. It was kind of funny to watch him fight that instinct to go down as soon as he catches the ball — I'd swear he's knees buckled for a second there before he realized he actually had room to run.

 

[Rob0729]

Why? They're not irrelevant just because they're not catching passes.

Why? Because the Pats cannot have a receiver running a deep route all game. If the deep threat cannot provide much more than being a deep threat (a large number of them can't run much more than go routes), there are only so many times you can have them out there as a decoy.

Deep threats become less effective and necessary in the red zone unless you are like Moss or Fitzgerald or Johnson. A pure deep threat isn't likely to be on the field or would be wasted on most 3rd and short plays. Most teams won't bite on the deep routes with double teams and you can't afford to go deep very often on a third and short unless you want to pad your punter's stats.

Meanwhile an effective outside threat can be useful on every passing play. Either as a receiver or drawing coverage from elsewhere. Defenses have to account for a really good outside receiver on every passing play while there are a large number of passing plays where the defense won't need to really worry about a deep pass.

 

[coolguy]

Why? Because the Pats cannot have a receiver running a deep route all game. If the deep threat cannot provide much more than being a deep threat (a large number of them can't run much more than go routes), there are only so many times you can have them out there as a decoy.

Deep threats become less effective and necessary in the red zone unless you are like Moss or Fitzgerald or Johnson. A pure deep threat isn't likely to be on the field or would be wasted on most 3rd and short plays. Most teams won't bite on the deep routes with double teams and you can't afford to go deep very often on a third and short unless you want to pad your punter's stats.

Meanwhile an effective outside threat can be useful on every passing play. Either as a receiver or drawing coverage from elsewhere. Defenses have to account for a really good outside receiver on every passing play while there are a large number of passing plays where the defense won't need to really worry about a deep pass.

but if you combine a deep threat with brady'S play action, maybe scoring touchdowns would be easier instead of wasting plays on short passes.

Not saying abandon the short passing game, but a deep pass down the field every now and then won't hurt.

 

[Rob0729]

The Deep Threat is the spice and the short pass the meat of a complete gourmet offensive meal.

In an extreme situation, we need only go back to the Reche Caldwell era to illustrate that the deep threat should not be underestimated. The opposing defense wisely collapsed on the offense during that season and that made every aspect of the offense more difficult and left Brady more vulnerable to hits with defenses able to line up close to the line.

Did Reche still catch over 60 passes as our leading WR and did the Patriots still have a chance to seriously contend? Yes - and many Patsfans stated that we were actually "all set" at WR for the following season.

What happend? Belichick disagreed and brought in not one, but two proven deep threats in Moss and Stallworth and the previous year's #1 WR didn't even make the team in 2007 (or anyone else's team for that matter)

Going into the playoffs with a credible deep threat is essential to the success of Welker, Hernandez, Gronk and the running game. Oh sure, statistically they will always get their receptions - but it's the few "must make" plays where having the defense stretched makes the difference between making a first down and not making a first down at a critical time.

I would say that McDaniels and Brady have both made note of past mistakes in this area and that they have made a special point of integrating Lloyd into the deep game to ensure defenses remain honest in the playoffs.

This won't necessarily show up in the gross stats of receptions, yards or even points - but it will make a difference in gaining 3 yards when you absolutely MUST gain those 3 yards, and thus will show up in the W-L stat - and hopefully in a Super Bowl win.

So let's not under-rate the importance of a deep threat either!

A few things:

• The 2006 season really only proved you cannot go into the playoffs with a bunch of #3 and #4 WRs and no legitimate primary WR. Gaffney hasn't hit and even at his best, he was a #2 WR. Caldwell was a #3 WR forced to be a #1 WR. Brown was a shell of his former self. The Pats offense that year wasn't hurting because they lacked a deep threat. They were missing a single receiver that Brady could rely on throwing to on a big third down. If Brown was two years younger or Welker was picked up a year earlier, I think the Pats may have won the Super Bowl that year without deep threat.
• Most of the guys from 2006 didn't make the roster in 2007 because they weren't good enough. Caldwell, according to Troy Brown, was lazy and didn't work hard at anything. Gabriel was a mess. Everyone else was worse than them other than Gaffney.
• Stallworth lasted here one year and one game. In 2007, he slid down the depth chart and ended up being the #4 WR by the end of the year.
• Belichick brought Moss in here because he was a HOF quality WR who was an elite talent that he got for nothing. Him being a deep threat was secondary. He was just a guy that teams had to gameplan their entire defensive strategy around. In that way, he isn't much different than Gronk.
• Since Moss left in 2010, Belichick has totally moved away from a deep threat WR to more of a TE, possession WR offense. If Belichick agreed with you that a deep threat is that important, why has he gone three years without a legitimate deep threat and most of the receivers he has brought in are more outside than deep threats (Ochocinco last year, Lloyd, Gaffney again, Branch)?

 

[patsinthesnow]

Lloyd's pace

77 receptions 920 yards 5 TDs

2011 Deion Branch:

51 receptions 704 yards 5 TDs

2010 Deion Branch:

48 receptions 706 yards 5 TDs

Lloyd came in here and did what we wanted, upgrade the #2 WR spot and be another weapon the defense really can't single cover.

 

[PatsFan2]

I agree with Joe...Rob the 49ers shut down our short passing game last night in the first half minus Gronk score could have been worse. The Ravens did it too last year. It's no mystery a good well disciplined defense can stop our short passing game. Loved the way they used Lloyd last night if he's single covered we have to make the Defense pay Lloyd showed that he has the ability. Lloyd was Big Positive last night. That said the Pats need another outside WR via the Draft or FA one with SPEED!

 

[manxman2601]

Why? Because the Pats cannot have a receiver running a deep route all game. If the deep threat cannot provide much more than being a deep threat (a large number of them can't run much more than go routes), there are only so many times you can have them out there as a decoy.

Deep threats become less effective and necessary in the red zone unless you are like Moss or Fitzgerald or Johnson. A pure deep threat isn't likely to be on the field or would be wasted on most 3rd and short plays. Most teams won't bite on the deep routes with double teams and you can't afford to go deep very often on a third and short unless you want to pad your punter's stats.

Meanwhile an effective outside threat can be useful on every passing play. Either as a receiver or drawing coverage from elsewhere. Defenses have to account for a really good outside receiver on every passing play while there are a large number of passing plays where the defense won't need to really worry about a deep pass.

Good response and I agree that a limited deep threat receiver would probably be a waste of any significant resource like FA money or a high draft pick. But I'm not talking about something so limited. I'm thinking of a more rounded receiver with the ability to stretch the field.

 

[Rob0729]

I agree with Joe...Rob the 49ers shut down our short passing game last night in the first half minus Gronk score could have been worse. The Ravens did it too last year. It's no mystery a good well disciplined defense can stop our short passing game. Loved the way they used Lloyd last night if he's single covered we have to make the Defense pay Lloyd showed that he has the ability. Lloyd was Big Positive last night. That said the Pats need another outside WR via the Draft or FA one with SPEED!

First, Aldon Smith and Justin Smith were all over Brady with a four man rush for much of the first half of the game. Would a deep threat stop them from dominating the line of scrimmage? If Brady was forcing his short throws because he had no time, how would he have time to make throws to a deep threat. The last thing they needed in much of the first half was a deep threat. They needed better blocking. Gronk's blocking ability was missing far, far more than a deep threat in the first half last night.

Second, the inability to establish the run hurt them far more too. Look at the first drive for example. Brady hits Lloyd on first down for 7 yards. On second down, Ridley rushes for 2 yards. On third down, Ridley rushes for -2 yards. Punt.

Third, there were a lot of receivers open in short distances, but there were also a lot of drops. Welker, Hernandez, and Lloyd all dropped multiple passes where they were wide open.

I think whenever the passing game stalls, people go to two excuses. Either McDaniels is calling a bad game or the lack of a deep threat means that the receivers can't get open. I didn't think it was the lack of players getting open that was the problem in the first half. I felt it was that Brady had no time, the running game struggled (until they started using Woodhead), and there were a lot of execution issues. The fact that Brady had no time to throw the ball with a four man rush means that a deep threat was pretty irrelevant.

 

[Rob0729]

Good response and I agree that a limited deep threat receiver would probably be a waste of any significant resource like FA money or a high draft pick. But I'm not talking about something so limited. I'm thinking of a more rounded receiver with the ability to stretch the field.

There really aren't a lot of well rounder deep threat WRs. Most are tall and fast and that means they usually do not run the route tree that the Pats like to run. The Pats modified the routes a bit for Moss because he was such a special player, but it would take a Moss type of talent for the Pats to gear the offense around one player not named Tom Brady or possibly Rob Gronkowski.

 

[manxman2601]

There really aren't a lot of well rounder deep threat WRs. Most are tall and fast and that means they usually do not run the route tree that the Pats like to run. The Pats modified the routes a bit for Moss because he was such a special player, but it would take a Moss type of talent for the Pats to gear the offense around one player not named Tom Brady or possibly Rob Gronkowski.

There's three in the next draft that are all capable of fitting in to the Pats short game but have the proven speed to stretch the field: Terrance Williams, Markus Wheaton, Stedman Bailey.

 

[manxman2601]

Just want to say that the last couple of pages have been an excellent debate. Bravo to Rob0729 in particular. I don't necessarily agree with him but he's defending his position with some outstanding rational arguments.

 

[ATippett56]

That said the Pats need another outside WR via the Draft or FA one with SPEED!

How did all that speed work out for Brandon Tate and Taylor Price as wide receivers in the New England Patriots offense?

 

[manxman2601]

How did all that speed work out for Brandon Tate and Taylor Price as wide receivers in the New England Patriots offense?

As neither are in this draft, they're not that relevant. As fans we really need to stop judging future drafts by what happened in past ones.