Branch is a true #1

[Pats67]

It's a business and when you don't show up for work, what happens?? And not showing up for a charity event?? Is that looking out for Deion?? If it is, he's getting bad advice.

See previous post. And please, save me the whimpering about this ONE DAY charity event. I think we can be assured that Deion Branch has done more for charity in his three years as a pro than ANY of us will do in our entire lifetimes. Ever hear of the Deion Branch Charitable Foundation?

The New England Patriots Wide Receiver and Most Valuable Player of Super Bowl XXXIX is also Founder of the Deion Branch Charitable Foundation – established to help ease the struggles of families with children who suffer from meningitis. The foundation actively supports various organizations committed to assisting meningitis victims. In addition, Deion is active with the New England Patriots Charitable Foundation which promotes staying in school and the importance of education to local area youth.

So save the constant references to skipping a 'charity event', will you?

On to your first statement (bolded). Do you follow the NFL much? Do you think this is the first hold out ever? Get a grip. And stop with the constant "he's getting bad advice!" You have no idea what kind of advice he's getting, and you don't know that the adice he is getting might not be exactly the right kind. Only time will tell that.

Face it, the Patriots will use every ounce of leverage available to them (such as letting players play out their rookie deals with no renegotiation, regardsless of how much they outperform the deal) to avoid paying even their best players one cent more than they have to. And I love that they do that, as the fruits of that sort of discipline are on display for all the world to see.

Just don't begrudge decent, honorable people (like Deion, and Richard before him) for using whatever leverage that's available to them to get the best deal for themselves. Honest to God, we ought to all be adult enough to understand that.

 

[JoeSixPat]

See previous post. And please, save me the whimpering about this ONE DAY charity event. I think we can be assured that Deion Branch has done more for charity in his three years as a pro than ANY of us will do in our entire lifetimes. Ever hear of the Deion Branch Charitable Foundation?

So save the constant references to skipping a 'charity event', will you?

On to your first statement (bolded). Do you follow the NFL much? Do you think this is the first hold out ever? Get a grip. And stop with the constant "he's getting bad advice!" You have no idea what kind of advice he's getting, and you don't know that the adice he is getting might not be exactly the right kind. Only time will tell that.

Face it, the Patriots will use every ounce of leverage available to them (such as letting players play out their rookie deals with no renegotiation, regardsless of how much they outperform the deal) to avoid paying even their best players one cent more than they have to. And I love that they do that, as the fruits of that sort of discipline are on display for all the world to see.

Just don't begrudge decent, honorable people (like Deion, and Richard before him) for using whatever leverage that's available to them to get the best deal for themselves. Honest to God, we ought to all be adult enough to understand that.

I hereby invoke Patsfans.com charter rule 138(b) requiring that Pats726 and Pats67 fight it out to the death in a cage match.

I further invoke rule 138(b)(ii) requiring the winner of each match to move on to take on (in order) Pats0204, Pats1, Pats2006, Pats26, and Pats60.

Note also that the undercard will feature jello wrestling between PatsChick12 and PatsChick87 (although PatsChick87 is HEAVILLY favored).

 

[fgssand]

If I understood him right, Fgssand said: it was OK for RS and TB to want their deals negotiated early; but Deion should have been prepared to wait. I say: if you did it for RS, I don't see why you shouldn't do it for Deion. I don't accept that there should be one principle for "elite" players and another one for the rest. Where do you draw the line? Only leads to resentment.

All you need to do is look at the size of the paycheck to find out the difference between the "elite" and all the rest. I might say the same if Deion were one of the best, if not the very best at his position. He is not. I draw the line right there and I do not think there is any resentment at all. The players know the story and they all support each other, as they should as it is personal business.

 

[Mike the Brit]

All you need to do is look at the size of the paycheck to find out the difference between the "elite" and all the rest. I might say the same if Deion were one of the best, if not the very best at his position. He is not. I draw the line right there and I do not think there is any resentment at all. The players know the story and they all support each other, as they should as it is personal business.

fgssand, I respectfully disagree.

I don't deny that the Patriots have players with very different pay expectations. (Although, as a side note, what determines your pay is as much the position that you play as where you rank among players at that position in the leage.) Remember, though, that that cuts both ways. Ed Reed -- an elite player by anyone's standards, I'd say -- played for $250,000 a year without holding out. Seymour was playing for a lot of money as a number 6 draft pick -- I think over $4m a year -- when he (or his agent) decided to hold out.

I think that the players do support each other. The question is: what does it do to the team? As a fan, that's what I care about in the end.

My opinion is that if you think that it was OK for Seymour then it has to be OK for Branch. The principle "if you think that you've outplayed your contract, hold out" can't be "if you're an elite player who thinks that he's outplayed his contract, hold out". Of course, some players will have higher expectations than others, but I repeat: I can't see where you draw the line. It's OK for quarterbacks and defensive ends but not wide receivers? What about Randy Moss? What about TO? All of that was just an expression of my opinion.

Pats67. You have either not bothered to read what I wrote or aren't capable of understanding it. You then characterized it as "horsesh*t". That's not what I think of as having a discussion. :bricks:

 

[fgssand]

fgssand, I respectfully disagree.

I don't deny that the Patriots have players with very different pay expectations. (Although, as a side note, what determines your pay is as much the position that you play as where you rank among players at that position in the leage.) Remember, though, that that cuts both ways. Ed Reed -- an elite player by anyone's standards, I'd say -- played for $250,000 a year without holding out. Seymour was playing for a lot of money as a number 6 draft pick -- I think over $4m a year -- when he (or his agent) decided to hold out.

I think that the players do support each other. The question is: what does it do to the team? As a fan, that's what I care about in the end.

My opinion is that if you think that it was OK for Seymour then it has to be OK for Branch. The principle "if you think that you've outplayed your contract, hold out" can't be "if you're an elite player who thinks that he's outplayed his contract, hold out". Of course, some players will have higher expectations than others, but I repeat: I can't see where you draw the line. It's OK for quarterbacks and defensive ends but not wide receivers? What about Randy Moss? What about TO? All of that was just an expression of my opinion.

Pats67. You have either not bothered to read what I wrote or aren't capable of understanding it. You then characterized it as "horsesh*t". That's not what I think of as having a discussion. :bricks:

No questoin - position determines how much the top end will be. QB's & DL's make more than TE's or FB's etc. Also, being the very best at your position gets you to the highest possible level a player you can earn. So, the best QB will always make the most money when compared to say the best tight end.

I guess all I was saying is that even on a team like the Pats, the very best at a position considered the most crucial to a teams success will be able toet away with more of a holdout than any other player or position.

On this team, I also think that Seymour was and will be the exception, will be interesting to see how they deal with Branch. Pay him now and risk the hold out flood gate opening formany. Don't give in and we are going to be hurting at that position for sure.

 

[Mike the Brit]

will be interesting to see how they deal with Branch. Pay him now and risk the hold out flood gate opening formany. Don't give in and we are going to be hurting at that position for sure.

That's it -- I think that the flood-gate is open now that Seymour has been extended and they're trying to get it closed again. Good luck!

(If I were a GM, I'd be trying to establish a window for re-negotiating contracts (not before, not later) but I'd not have a problem with escalators triggered, by both individual and team success. I'd guess that Branch would have been a very good candidate to hit them.)

 

[Pats726]

See previous post. And please, save me the whimpering about this ONE DAY charity event. I think we can be assured that Deion Branch has done more for charity in his three years as a pro than ANY of us will do in our entire lifetimes. Ever hear of the Deion Branch Charitable Foundation? So save the constant references to skipping a 'charity event', will you? On to your first statement (bolded). Do you follow the NFL much? Do you think this is the first hold out ever? Get a grip. And stop with the constant "he's getting bad advice!" You have no idea what kind of advice he's getting, and you don't know that the adice he is getting might not be exactly the right kind. Only time will tell that. Face it, the Patriots will use every ounce of leverage available to them (such as letting players play out their rookie deals with no renegotiation, regardsless of how much they outperform the deal) to avoid paying even their best players one cent more than they have to. And I love that they do that, as the fruits of that sort of discipline are on display for all the world to see.
Just don't begrudge decent, honorable people (like Deion, and Richard before him) for using whatever leverage that's available to them to get the best deal for themselves. Honest to God, we ought to all be adult enough to understand that.

I guess you don't understand about thecharity event that Deion boycotted...or that it was mandatory. The one day even raises enough money in that day for the Pats charity org to use throughout the year..funding many organizations and charities. Seymour had a better case in holding out..and yet he was there, while Deion failed to show.
Many may take this as DB showing up the organization and many see it as
Branch putting himself way above team, maybe even having a big head. I wouldn't go that far, but to me his no-show is a slap in the team's face.
As for his advice, good bad,..I can see nothing GOOD at all about skipping a charity event..do you?? Obviously, whether he got bad advice or just did as he wished there is NOTHING poistive in his image that can come from that.
Skipping the mini-camp is one thing..the charity event is another. Bad publicity does not help him and he should realize that. Yes, I have heard of hos foundation and understand he has done charity work in the past, that is all fine..noted that in the blurb you sent it mentioned that he was active in the New England Patriots Charitable Foundation. For this year in its largest
fundraiser, he decided to sit on his hands and not appear.
Holdouts and a part of the NFL..as well as injuries..but noting they are a part is far from wishing for them or in any way thinking they are a good thing.
Sorry...I don't see anything honorable about holding out..I missed Jerry Rice's words about him, so I will only say that others see it differentially.
Multi-millionaires who are playing a kid's game...wishing for more??? I don't have all that much sympathy...I had more for Big Sey as he was clearly in need of an upgrade. Using whatever leverage?? I don't agree...Forget the team...I guess.
Not knowing numbers, my feeling is that Branch may want way too much for where he ranks in the league...Top twenty, not top ten.
And as for your chracterization of of charity...speak for yourself.
N0 138 B please...steel cages..or for that matter Zell Miller duels either...

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Deion has every right as a free person in a free country to show up or not show up, and none of you can take that away from him!!!!


The Pats also have the right to not pay him a penny more than he is worth!!!!


One way or the other, Branch will play football this year. He simply can't just take a season off at this point in his career, Pats have him by the balls.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

It's one thing to talk about number of receptions - and we all hope Watson can jump from 20 odd receptions to 70 odd this season and be the 2nd coming of Ben Coates - but that's a tall order and doesn't mean he's a WR.

Unless there's been some talk of a position change for Watson, he's still a TE last I heard and not a WR.

Even though we know he has speed I'm not expecting Watson to be used primarilly as a deep threat.

TEs keep defenses honest by creating options in the short to mid range -whereas #1 WRs keep defenses honest by creating options in the long game.

There's a reason why teams have WRs AND TEs. I wouldn't want to abdicate the #1 WR position to a TE - that wouldn't be smart football.

Joe and dhamz, thanks for reading me. For grins and giggles, would you consider it possible for there to be a difference between the 'position' of wide receiver and the 'function' of receiver? If you are unable to perceive one I'll be happy to cheerfully grant you your points in the discussion.

Regarding statistics for Ben Watson, one likes to mutter 'past is prologue' into his beer and note with anticipation the current make-up of the Patriots' offense which appears weak at WR and strong at TE & RB for the skill positions. The OL features a group of players who are under contract for a few years and has a nice core who have been playing together within Dante's system for a bit - it may be fair to think about Kansas City (teamwork vice size) when considering what this year's OL 'could' be like.

Last season Tommy threw for a personal high and got knocked about for a personal low. I like to wonder if BB is looking for a way to suck up blitzers by forcing coverage on a couple game breaking TEs. There also may be some increased leverage with receivers out of the backfield, depending on how Maroney is used. Not to mention the variety of weapons in the run game and on screens.

Further on Ben's statistics, it may be his numbers were average for a TE, even one in his first year. I just like to consider that he is a capable receiver, he was impressive and omnipresent in mini-camp news, and Tommy is going to behave like any other QB with a trusted target - he'll use him more often. I also look at the apparent run strength being developed, and think why not have a "#1" receiver who has 30 or so catches? This is BB and Tommy spreading the ball around after all. We like to tell each other it takes three years for a WR to develop, how long does it take for a TE who has a larger playbook?

 

[JoeSixPat]

Joe and dhamz, thanks for reading me. For grins and giggles, would you consider it possible for there to be a difference between the 'position' of wide receiver and the 'function' of receiver? If you are unable to perceive one I'll be happy to cheerfully grant you your points in the discussion.

I think the point only is that Watson isn't yet Ben Coates, nor might ever be. But that's an unfair comparison at this point anyway.

But on your point of positions (and players) that can capably serve in the "function" of a WR - that's precisely my point.

TEs can catch pases. RBs can catch passes. We've even seen Vrabel and Seymour catch TDs.

None of them are WRs. Mike Vrabel is not going to stretch the field with breakaway speed. Ben Watson at 230lbs, even with the sprint speed he showed in the last game, is not going to stretch the field down after down either.

Guys like Branch, who have the typical WR speed and endurance to do that play after play serve a vital role that is much much more than other position players who "function" as a pass catcher.

If not for WRs stretching the field, defenses would collapse on our RBs and TEs, so I take no comfort in the thought that if our WRs all fail to perform or are injured, that Watson, Faulk, Dillon, Graham or any other position players would or could pick up the slack.

Its just an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[spacecrime]

See previous post. And please, save me the whimpering about this ONE DAY charity event. I think we can be assured that Deion Branch has done more for charity in his three years as a pro than ANY of us will do in our entire lifetimes. Ever hear of the Deion Branch Charitable Foundation?



So save the constant references to skipping a 'charity event', will you?

You can stop licking now.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think the point only is that Watson isn't yet Ben Coates, nor might ever be. But that's an unfair comparison at this point anyway.

But on your point of positions (and players) that can capably serve in the "function" of a WR - that's precisely my point.

TEs can catch pases. RBs can catch passes. We've even seen Vrabel and Seymour catch TDs.

None of them are WRs. Mike Vrabel is not going to stretch the field with breakaway speed. Ben Watson at 230lbs, even with the sprint speed he showed in the last game, is not going to stretch the field down after down either.

Guys like Branch, who have the typical WR speed and endurance to do that play after play serve a vital role that is much much more than other position players who "function" as a pass catcher.

If not for WRs stretching the field, defenses would collapse on our RBs and TEs, so I take no comfort in the thought that if our WRs all fail to perform or are injured, that Watson, Faulk, Dillon, Graham or any other position players would or could pick up the slack.

Its just an apples to oranges comparison.

The defenses collapsing down is a valid concern, though the Pats were once known for using a short passing attack in lieu of a run game - one might assume defenses played short more often then not at the time.

We look at receiving TEs like Gonzalez, Gates, Crumpler, then make the comparison to our own TEs, arguably, Watson and Graham have the tools to be as productive. We can look at WRs like Andre Davis last season, I think we both can agree that he stretched the field? He may have helped the team with his routes, but I have difficulty saying he was productive in the passing game, his contributions should be replaceable by Caldwell or Jackson.

What we are looking for is a taller receiver with upfield blocking skills to fill some of the hole left by Givens' departure. I don't expect anyone to "replace" D-Giv, but I do expect the coaches and veterans to work on ways to get the same things he did accomplished by other players. I would think Watson is one of the people who will be asked to take some part of Givens' assignments, and a larger role, hopefully, projects larger production.

Lets also be clear, I am not projecting Watson to do the job of a WR, Gonzalez doesn't, but I'm not expecting a target Brady obviously is very comfortable with to be spending much time on the bench either. My comment on Watson was tongue in cheek after all the press about being Brady's favorite target in mini-camp. However, an honest assessment of his talent suggests he could easily be a 40-50 catch 'receiver' if BB needed him to play the receiving TE role more often. Coates was Bledsoe's favorite, no reason Ben couldn't be Tommy's new favorite in the next commercial - it is time for him to bring the TEs in for one.

 

[IcyPatriot]

has he or his agent actually formulated an offer?
could be that it's right in front of me, but i'm having kind of a hard time finding it.
curran may have started a tempest in a teapot, with high-minded comments and detailed analyses of an offer that doesn't exist.

Per my very good Patriots contact Branch and the Patriots are @ $750,000/year apart. Seems like small peanuts except that a meeting in the middle of that number will not do it....most of that $$$ is expected to DEAL OR NO DEAL.

Belichick's habit of having several contracts up in the air does not go over well in the locker room I hear. I tried to get more info on that but my friend had to go and said he'd get more info for me next time.

 

[Pats726]

Per my very good Patriots contact Branch and the Patriots are @ $750,000/year apart. Seems like small peanuts except that a meeting in the middle of that number will not do it....most of that $$$ is expected to DEAL OR NO DEAL.

Belichick's habit of having several contracts up in the air does not go over well in the locker room I hear. I tried to get more info on that but my friend had to go and said he'd get more info for me next time.

Just curious as to what you mean by several contracts...to different players?? or???
I say DEAL..if it's that close..no need to make problems over <1 mil

 

[Joker]

I just got a job with the pats...I'm Rocco the towel boy...Branch will sign...OK..??? It's a lock...or else

 

[Pats726]

A lock??? I hope so...I would LOVE that..even though I have been a bit firm on his actions..I have met him and like him..and it would be GREAT to have him in the fold long term...

 

[Joker]

Sorry..I was being facetious...a take on Rocco the Hat check girl...to be honest..I'm happy..the Pats can do whatever...I want you mooks to understand this...I WON big when they beat the Rams...also my life as a Patriot fan became complete///AND at the expense of the whining Raider fans who rippe4d us off in 75

forget the rest fellas...Watson...the league knows..and he's owed

 

[JoeSixPat]

Per my very good Patriots contact Branch and the Patriots are @ $750,000/year apart. Seems like small peanuts except that a meeting in the middle of that number will not do it....most of that $$$ is expected to DEAL OR NO DEAL.

Belichick's habit of having several contracts up in the air does not go over well in the locker room I hear. I tried to get more info on that but my friend had to go and said he'd get more info for me next time.

My guess - and run this by your contact - is that even if the Pats are willing to meet him more than half way of the $750k mark, at the present moment there's a perception issue based on Branch's mini camp hold out.

The Pats might see the light at the end of the tunnel but need to let things cool down until a bit before the start of mini-camp so its perceived less that the hold out lead directly to the contract agreement - as that has consequences for other future contracts.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

If Branch goes into the season w/o a new contract because of 300-400K, he's insane. Many an NFL player has turned down initial offers in hopes of testing the FA market only to get hurt and wind up signing contracts less than the initial offer.

If FBN's contact is to be believed, then I wouldn't be surprised if Branch has a new contract before TC opens.

 

[VJCPatriot]

750k doesn't sounds like much until you spread that out over 5 or 6 years, then it's quite a bit of change. Regardless if 750k is the gap. It is probably possible to find a meeting of minds somewhere.