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Brady's first two weeks vs. Manning's first two weeks (2008)

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Disco Volante, Sep 26, 2009.

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  1. Disco Volante

    Disco Volante Rookie

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    I know the majority of us are sane and realize Brady is just dealing with some rust, but for those who need to be further convinced.

    In 2008 Brady was injured in the first game of the season requiring major knee surgery and missing the rest of the season. In 2008, Manning had surgery to remove an infected bursa sac in his left knee and ended up sitting out of all four pre-season games while also missing most of training camp.

    Here's how they both fared after two weeks of play.

    2008: Manning
    1-1 Record

    56/91 (61.5%)
    568 Yards (6.2 Average)
    2 TDs / 2 INTs

    2009: Brady
    1-1 Record

    62/100 (62.0%)
    594 Yards (5.9 Average)
    2 TDs / 2 INTs

    The Colts ended up going 3-4 through 8 weeks, coming off a two game losing streak and were looking to be in some trouble. Then, in the first week of November Manning puts up a 121.9 QB rating, defeats the Pats and proceeds to run the table for the rest of the regular season while winning NFL MVP. After throwing 9 interceptions in the first 7 games Manning threw only 4 during the final 9 games.

    Patience.
  2. RoughingthePasser

    RoughingthePasser Rookie

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    Apples to Oranges

    Who cares? Fantasy foootball players?

    C'mon...stats are lame...gimme wins
  3. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    I think you're sort of missing the point he's trying to make here.
  4. bigfandan

    bigfandan Rookie

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    L.A.M.E.
    Manning had a very weak offense line with 3 new starters, and a new receiver to break in Gonzo.
    As much as I want Brady to succeed. Don't assume anything, like Brady will have a special year after pretty much pooping in first two games.
    What Manning did in 2008 that is very rare.
    I won't count Brady going on to be the MVP this year. Just want him to play steady.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  5. SyN65

    SyN65 Rookie

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    QFT.

    What Manning did was very impressive.
  6. fourthandmiles

    fourthandmiles Rookie

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    It is funny to hear. I was under the impression that many people thought Manning was undeserving of the MVP? Or is it that his accomplishments were impressive, just not MVP worthy?
  7. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    #17 Jersey

    I think again - like RoughingthePasser you're missing the point of the original post. I think you need to look at it a little more objectively and also realize that the two teams they've played up to this point are much improved from previous years and are no longer going to be wins you can just pencil in.

    Brady is coming off of a severe knee injury, and it's going to take some time for him to get his feet back under him and get his confidence back. He's openly admitted that his mechanics aren't where they need to be yet, and it's pretty clear that thus far his accuracy still needs work. From your statements it sounds like you're ready to write off the season and watch them go 4-12. Do you seriously want to go that route? Or would you rather watch him slowly get better each week and watch this team start playing their better football toward the end of the season and have momentum should they make the playoffs?

    Less emotion and more thought - and try to be a little more objective. Unless you want to drive yourself - and the rest of the people in here - crazy this season :cool:
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  8. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    #17 Jersey

    Unless you're like me and you just can't stand him - so I guess that would be my reason.
  9. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    #17 Jersey

    Great post BTW Disco Volante - thanks for pulling those numbers and pointing this out.
  10. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    It sounds like you are under a lot of impressions of what other people think.

    But looking at the OP's original message again, I didn't see any of all that Manning worthy/not worthy stuff that you are under the impression that other people think. The message was about Brady, not Manning, and my guess is that most people, like me, do not remember who the NFL MVP was last year.

    Me, I think the OP had a great post and had some significant data to show that Brady is doing as well as can be expected. I'm not sure why no one can understand his post, or the point he is making.
  11. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    #17 Jersey

    Exactly. They lost by a touchdown last week - they didn't get blown out. The defense played about as well as they could have and the offense was just out of sync and couldn't get anything going due to the penalties. My favorite part last week was early in the game I think it was when they were knocking at the door and ended up facing a 3rd and 30. You can't do that on the road and expect to win.

    They beat themselves last week and it was still a close game. I think a lot of people are losing a bit too much perspective without really taking an analytical look at things.
  12. fourthandmiles

    fourthandmiles Rookie

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    I get what he is saying, it is just the thought of Brady having a Manning like season. blech. They are interesting numbers, uncanny really.
  13. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Right because 39 completions and over 370 yards in game 1 was sucking, right?
  14. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Give me an entire season of Brady needing to put 17 points (or even27 btw) on the board to win, and I'll make my SB reservations.
    That game, offensively, was an anomoly, and it wasn't because of the opponent.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  15. Disco Volante

    Disco Volante Rookie

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    Yeah, kind of strange to see how many people can't see the point of the post. Kudos for the compliments to those who do.

    1) During the first seven "recovery" weeks his line gave up 9 sacks. During the final nine "MVP" weeks they gave up four sacks. A good QB can make an average line look great and as Peyton got hot, the sacks were more than cut in half.

    2) Tom Brady's leading receiver last week was a rookie seventh round quarterback turned receiver.

    3) It seems you and those who aren't understanding the point of this topic are the only ones making any assumptions. A set of similar numbers earned in the same time span by two elite QBs coming off surgery was presented to show that even the greats will have rust but can eventually return to form, even MVP form at best.

    Also, if you equate Brady's week one performance to "pooping all over the field", then I imagine you quite value on-the-field pooping.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  16. bigfandan

    bigfandan Rookie

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    Not to pour cold water on your parade. Wake up folks, winnning a MVP is not as easy as you think.

    I will be very happy if Brady end the season in top 5 of Qbs. I respect Brady over any other player in the league. But his is not near top of his game. I will be happy if he regains 90% of his game.
  17. Disco Volante

    Disco Volante Rookie

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    Once again, you're missing the point of the topic. The moral of the story is...

    1) Be patient.
    2) Even the most elite QBs will have rust during the recovery process.
    3) A recovering QB playing below their standard can be significantly (in Manning's case, MVP worthy) turned around with time, especially one of the Brady/Manning caliber.

    This topic did not officially delcare that Brady will have the same exact season as Manning did last year, which is what some of you seemed to assume despite no such claim. The topic is to show that significant improvement can be had by presenting identical stats from two recovering elite QBs in the same span of time, one who is currently dealing with and one who went on to be the league's MVP.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  18. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    #17 Jersey

    See posts like these I can at least understand and I can live with.

    I can live with the doubt, we all have a little of that. I also have no issue with people being concerned and questioning some things after the first couple of games. It's the people who are already throwing out the 2009 season after a 1-1 start and a 7-point loss. It's way too early and too much can happen. All I'm asking for is a little perspective and some optimism, because if I read any more posts of people going off the deep end - my head is going to explode.

    Just remember - for those of you going nuts - all of your posts are documented. They can and will be used against you later on :cool:
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  19. Disco Volante

    Disco Volante Rookie

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    Exactly, again this is a topic for those who are declaring the Jets AFC East champions and that Brady will continue to play at this current level for the rest of this season.

    Yet people seem to be reading it as a "Brady will have a MVP season" topic.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  20. TommyBrady12

    TommyBrady12 Rookie

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    yup manning got hot thanks to wendy's boy and gaffney who cost us the colts game.
  21. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    What is.... "90% is your game?" :confused3: Are you the same fan who said Brady has to wake up and start outpacing Indy in "our division"?
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  22. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    Ahaha. Nice retort.

    I think the data is very interesting. I could care less if Brady wins an MVP, and I don't get why the discussion keeps slipping that way. The point is, we're seeing a "normal" process for even an ELITE quarterback. Let's not forget who the guy behind the knee-brace is.

    I won't be a bit surprised to see Tom come back faster than Manning did, but I'll certainly understand if he doesn't.

    Thanks for the OP. Good shtuff.
  23. RobAllan

    RobAllan Rookie

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    This was a good post by the OP. It's really weird how everyone assumed the post was saying Brady was going to be MVP when there was nothing close to a claim like that.

    But the comparison is apt, and indeed encouraging for those of us who expected too much too soon. Brady missed more time than Manning too. Good to see that there's hope, and I myself have been making this mental comparison through the first two games but am glad to see the actual numbers also.

    -Rob-
  24. patriotscpfc

    patriotscpfc Rookie

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    Not sure if it's been mentioned, but there is a difference in that TFB had a pre-season.

    Manning didn't.

    But Tom's injury was far worse.
  25. bigfandan

    bigfandan Rookie

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    I see these two situations as unique; to imply Brady will mirror Manning's output is presumptious and too optimistic.

    I am rooting for Brady. I don't like to take it for granted he or the team will return to dominance as soon as they "work out the kinks". I don't get this blind-faith optimism though.

    If the team does well, great! Maybe we should wait and actually see them start dominating teams again.
  26. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Great OP.

    There are some other similarities beyond the simple stats, if you look at the Colts' 2008 early games:

    Game 1: Bears 29, Colts 13. The Bears led a close game 15-13 late in the 3rd quarter when Lance Briggs returned a fumble for a TD. Midway through the 4th quarter the Colts went for it on 4th and 1 from their own 47, and Dominic Rhodes was dropped for a 2 yard loss, allowing the Bears to take advantage of a short field and score another TD. Manning finished 30/49 for 257 yards and 1 TD but looked uncharacteristically discombobulated at times, and squandered multiple timeouts because of offensive confusion, leaving them short of timeouts at the end of the game.

    Game 2: Colts 18, Vikings 15. Down 15-0 late in the 4th Quarter, Manning pulled off a miracle rally, with the Colts scoring 18 unanswered points, finally taking the lead on a 47 yard Adam Vinatieri field goal with 8 seconds left. Pats fans salivating over the Colts starting 0-2 moan. Manning was 26/42 with 1 TD and 2 INTs. Sounds a lot like the Buffalo game, with TB and the Pats out of sync and down 11, and then suddenly getting their act in gear and scoring 12 unanswered points in 5 and a half minutes.

    Game 3: Jaguars 23, Colts 21. Jacksonville kicks a FG with 8 seconds left to win it, after 3 4th quarter lead changes (the Colts led 14-13 after 3 quarters). Damn, the Colts should be 0-3. Manning is 15/29 for 216 yards with 1 TD and 2 INTs (including a 61 yard TD return of an INT by Rashean Mathis), continuing his uncharacteristic play.

    Game 4: Colts 31, Texans 27. The Sage Rosenfels game. Coming off a bye week, and with Matt Schaub out for Houston, the Colts are down 27-10 in the 4th quarter to Sage Rosenfels and the Texans but score 21 unanswered points in just over 2 minutes, coming on 2 Peyton TD passes and a 68 yard Gary Brackett fumble return. Manning is 25/34 for 247 yards with 2 TD and 1 INT. Rosenfels loses 2 fumbles and throws an INT in a 4th quarter meltdown. Again, sounds a bit familiar? The Colts should arguably be 0-4 at this point.

    Game 5: Colts 31, Ravens 3. Peyton destroys a very good Baltimore defense. Manning has 3 TDs and 0 INTs. Looks like the Colts have finally turned the corner.

    Game 6: GB 34, Colts 14. Oops, maybe not. Manning is 21/42 with 0 TDs and 2 INTs, including a 62 yard Nick Collins INT return for a TD and an Aaron Rouse INT return 99 yards for a TD. Colts could be 1-5 now, but are a mediocre 3-3.

    Game 7: Titans 31, Colts 21. The changing of the guard game. Undefeated Tennesee dominates the 3-3 Colts. The game wasn't that close, but a lote Colts TD made the final score respectable. Manning is 26/41 with 2 TDs and 2 INTs. Colts should arguably be 1-6 at this point.

    Through 7 games Manning had thrown for 10 TDs and 9 INTs.

    Game 8: Colts 18, Pats 15. Remember this one? Colts win it on an Adam Vinatieri 4th quarter FG. Pats are driving when Dave Thomas's personnal foul takes us out of FG range, and Matt Cassel throws an INT to Bob Sanders on 4th and 15. Manning is 21/29 with 2 TDs and 0 INTs. A winnable game for the Pats, who fall to 5-3. Indy claws to 4-4 when they could have been 1-7.

    And the Colts run the table the rest of the way, finishing 11-4, with Manning winning the MVP.

    Looking at some of the similarities:

    1. Good teams find a way to scrape out games when they are playing poorly. The Colts were inconsistent and often atrocious at the beginning of last season. They could easily have been 1-7, their only good game coming against a strong Baltimore team that played in the AFCCG. They were blown out by a GB team that ended up picking #9 in the draft, and lost to a Jacksonville team that ended up picking #8. They won 2 games when they were down more than 14 points in the 4th quarter and had no business winning, aided by other team's mistakes.

    2. Manning was inconsistent, making atypical mistakes. He had 10 TDs and 9 INTs through 7 games and had thrown 3 INTs for TD returns. The Chicago game showed uncharacteristic mistakes with clock management, similar to the 2 TB delay of game errors against the Jets last week. He was hot and cold, was frequently rattled and didn't look like himself, punctuated with intermittent bursts of brilliance.

    Yes, Manning dind't have a preseason. But his injury was much worse than TBs. And Brady is adjusting to some new players on offense too, such as TE Chris Baker and WR Joey Galloway. His trusted slot guy, Wes Welker, as out for one game.

    Obviously there's no guarantee that the same script will play out, and the teams are different. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to see TB struggle for a few games, showing flashes of his old brilliance combined with uncharacteristic inconsistency and mistakes, before finally putting it all together around the bye week. I could see him having a great game Sunday against a mediocre Falcon's secondary, and then throwing a stinker against the Ravens' pressure, for example. Not necesassarily going to happen, but possible.

    Those who "just want consistency" from TB may have unrealistic expectations this early in the season. I just want to Pats to survive to the bye week, gradually get their timing together on offense, get Mayo back healthy, avoid other key injuries, and make it to the bye no worse than 4-3, and hopefully better.
  27. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oops, I meant to say TBs injury was much worse than Mannings. My bad.
  28. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    Another similarity was that one (actually two of their first few victories) were fueled by amazing comebacks/bonehead moves by the other teams. They came back from being down 15-0 vs Minnesota in the 4th quarter to win because the Vikes couldn't convert 3rd downs and Drew Rosenfels threw a pick 6 and a 'fumble 6' in the space of about two minutes...
  29. bigfandan

    bigfandan Rookie

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    Brady and Manning seem to be different Qbs. Brady is more of a traditional pocket passer. Manning is an accurate pocket passer but has become quite lethal throwing on the run and is pretty good at avioding pressure and buying extra time. Not some thing I would want Brady to mimic at this moment given his knee. People often associate Brady with Montana but as of right now Manning's game bears more similarity to Montana's.

    Veering off the topic a bit, but given how much the league protects the QBs, QBs could more afford to buy extra time now. In the old days LBs would kill scramblers like Big Ben and Eli.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2009
  30. Rob0729

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    Yes, Edelman is a seasoned pro. So there are no comparisions.

    You do realize that Gonzalez was drafted in 2007 and last year was his second season? In fact, he had about 87 yards and 1 TD less in 2007 than he had last year. I do agree that it is harder for a former first round pick in his second year to get acclimated to the NFL than a rookie seventh round pick who was a college QB being converted to WR.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2009
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