Brady vs. Montana: First 9 years

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Brady vs Montana: First 9 years

And when has Brady been any less clutch...lets not forget he did lead a should have been game winning drive in the SB that many don't talk about.

I think Brady and Montana are 1-2 and the order is up for debate us in new england will take Tommy Cali will take Montana and I bet it splits pretty even between the coasts.

If Tommy wins more SBs the debate will be over.

I don't think the order is up for debate. I'm a huge Brady fan and had my kids in his Jersey before they could walk, but Joe has four rings and never lost when he got to the big game. Between the coasts, I think Joe comes in ahead of Tommy. A fourth ring in the Cap and Free Agency era would have ended the debate, but that didn't happen.

Hopefully, Brady won't have a second "lost season" in four seasons with a strike next year and hopefully the revamped Patriots' team will come together soon enough to give TB another shot while he is still in his early 30's. If the D continues to give up four touchdowns a game (27 points per game average so far this year), it's gonna be tough this year.

 

[VectorPrime]

Re: Brady vs Montana: First 9 years

I don't think the order is up for debate. I'm a huge Brady fan and had my kids in his Jersey before they could walk, but Joe has four rings and never lost when he got to the big game. Between the coasts, I think Joe comes in ahead of Tommy. A fourth ring in the Cap and Free Agency era would have ended the debate, but that didn't happen.

Hopefully, Brady won't have a second "lost season" in four seasons with a strike next year and hopefully the revamped Patriots' team will come together soon enough to give TB another shot while he is still in his early 30's. If the D continues to give up four touchdowns a game (27 points per game average so far this year), it's gonna be tough this year.

Im going to quote my own post.

How was Brady not incredible in the biggest games he played in?

Incredible performances in 3 SB victories (netting two MVPS). And in the "unspeakable game" he did everything he had to do and led the team to a last minute touch down drive in a clutch performance. Not his fault that the defense let him down after that. Unlike say, MR. Manning who single handily threw the SB away.

Brady is just as good, if not better.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Re: Brady vs Montana: First 9 years

Im going to quote my own post.

How was Brady not incredible in the biggest games he played in?

Incredible performances in 3 SB victories (netting two MVPS). And in the "unspeakable game" he did everything he had to do and led the team to a last minute touch down drive in a clutch performance. Not his fault that the defense let him down after that. Unlike say, MR. Manning who single handily threw the SB away.

Brady is just as good, if not better.

Brady's performances the past few years have been un-clutch.

He has a terrible 4th quarter rating going over 18+ games now, is 1-8 in his last 8 road games, and has gotten owned by Peyton Manning ever since 2005.

I own a Brady jersey and he's one of my favorite players ever, but Joe Montana still has the more memorable TD-winning drives in multiple huge games. Montana also won multiple rings with no-names before getting Jerry Rice, and his defense wasn't as good as the Pats. Brady was clutch his first several years and got the field goals needed to be a champion.

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[DropKickFlutie]

Updated, for the first 10 years now. (No stats from 2010 included)
Do note, Brady has started 14 additional regular season games through his first 10 years compared to Montana.

A few things.

14 additional games by Brady is basically an entire season's worth of more stats, so it's hard to do a head to head comparison. Is it possible to compare the same # of games against each other?

Also, since 2004, the defensive and passing rules have changed, so tons of QB's have great passing numbers over the past 5 years. Look at how many 4000 or 3000 yard passers there are nowadays compared to 20 years ago.

There should be some sort of metric, like in baseball, where you can see how much above or below a QB performed to his peers in the same era. A measure like this would be a more accurate comparison than just doing straight head-to-head Brady/Montana numbers, because they played in totally different eras.

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[VectorPrime]

Re: Brady vs Montana: First 9 years

Brady's performances the past few years have been un-clutch.

He has a terrible 4th quarter rating going over 18+ games now, is 1-8 in his last 8 road games, and has gotten owned by Peyton Manning ever since 2005.

I own a Brady jersey and he's one of my favorite players ever, but Joe Montana still has the more memorable TD-winning drives in multiple huge games. Montana also won multiple rings with no-names before getting Jerry Rice, and his defense wasn't as good as the Pats. Brady was clutch his first several years and got the field goals needed to be a champion.

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You are talking about no-names?

I don't recall there being any big names on the Pats Super Bowl teams. In fact we had some of the most patched up receiving corps in the league. If the universe didn't hate us Brady would have gotten us to Super Bowl 41 with a JV squad.

 

[Jetssuck]

Re: Brady vs Montana: First 9 years

Brady's performances the past few years have been un-clutch.

He has a terrible 4th quarter rating going over 18+ games now, is 1-8 in his last 8 road games, and has gotten owned by Peyton Manning ever since 2005.

I own a Brady jersey and he's one of my favorite players ever, but Joe Montana still has the more memorable TD-winning drives in multiple huge games. Montana also won multiple rings with no-names before getting Jerry Rice, and his defense wasn't as good as the Pats. Brady was clutch his first several years and got the field goals needed to be a champion.

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Let's have Peyton Manning have a season-ending ACL and MCL injury and see how clutch he still is.

Manning hasn't owned Brady since 2005.

2005 NE vs IN: Brady passer rating 121.4, Manning 117.1
2006 NE vs IN: Bardy passer rating 34, Manning 93.1
2007 NE vs IN: Bardy passer rating 95.2, Manning 83.1
2009 NE vs IN: Brady passer rating 110.7, Manning 97.4

3 out of 4 meetings since 2005 Brady has outplayed Manning.

Where did you get the idea that Montana had defenses worse than Brady? In 8 of Montana's 10 seasons with SF the Niners had a top 4 defense. In 7 of Montana's 10 seasons with SF the Niners had a top 3 defense. It's Montana that has had the better defenses not Brady.

Brady has led a Superbowl td drive in the last minutes against both Carolina and New York only to have his defense cough up the lead.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

A couple of things here:

1. Montana was incredibly clutch, but that's not to say he didn't have his share of postseason clunkers. In fact, usually when a team loses, the quarterback didn't play lights out. Montana's 49ers did not win the Super Bowl every season as legend would suggest.

2. Montana also had some of the best defenses in the league, as the 49ers defense of the 80s in the most underrated unit in football history. They were almost always ranked in the top 5 in points allowed.

3. It's not fair to compare stats from different eras. Brady plays in a pass-friendly game where receivers can't be touched and neither can QBs. Montana would have put up some pretty sick numbers if he played today.

4. Interesting to note: Montana threw a terrible pass in his famous drive against the Bengals to win the Super Bowl. A few plays before his TD pass, he should have been picked off, but a Bengals defender dropped the ball. Meanwhile, Brady lost SB 42, the biggest game of his life, despite putting up an incredible performance considering the pass rush. However, that's how history goes: it's very black and white. Montana 4-0 and invincible, Brady 3-1 and vulnerable.

 

[VectorPrime]

I cannot possibly explain to anyone other than Pats fans how much seeing "3-1" pains me. It's spoiled as all hell but Brady deserved 4-0. That was his chance at immortality and he was let down by certain members of the team and, apparently, a horribly mean spirited God.

Hopefully he still has time for another. If the defense was at least respectable then there would be nothing in his way. He has 5 good seasons left in him (basically the duration of his contract) before his skills might come into question. If he ends up like Elway or Favre then he has more years and he has nothing to worry about. But if he is noticeably slipping at 37 then it might be over for him.

So I propose we cryogenic-ally freeze Brady and lock him away. In 3 years or so when the defense is fully developed we thaw him out and he doesn't lose a day!

 

[Wolfpack]

A couple of things here:

1. Montana was incredibly clutch, but that's not to say he didn't have his share of postseason clunkers. In fact, usually when a team loses, the quarterback didn't play lights out. Montana's 49ers did not win the Super Bowl every season as legend would suggest.

+1. I remember a playoff game against the Giants he lost 44-6 or something like that. He got hit by Jim Burt just before half time and that was all she wrote.

 

[Wolfpack]

Face it folks, Brady was clearly gunning for that record hard that year. And he did it by continuously looking endzone to arguable the single greatest WR ever to play the game,

Jerry Rice played for the Patriots?!?

who also set a TD record that year! Not a coincidence. Must be nice to have a receiving corps so good that you can ignore guys like Welker, Stalworth and Gaffney when it comes to TD strikes and throw 23 to one guy, who happens to be probably the single most talented and athletic WR of his era, if not all time.

For most of his career, Tom Brady was throwing to a very poor corps of receivers. Not a single one of those guys who played for NE prior to 2007 has had anything that can even remotely be considered a successful career after Brady. And yet he won 3 championships and put up amazing numbers, despite playing home games in a cold weather, windy area.

Then in his first year with a future HOF-er, he rewrote the record book.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Montana had Rice and Taylor. But he's also 4-0 in his superbowl appearances. Brady is 3-1. So Brady has to win a few more if he wants to surpass Montana in that area. Interestingly enough, Brady got all his SB wins before Moss/Welker arrived in New England.

The Pats defense has to get good enough to hold onto leads. The Pats missed getting to the bowl by giving up leads in the AFCCG to the Colts in 2006 and most infamously to the Giants in the last 2 minutes of the Bowl in 2007. 2008 was a lost year due to injury. I don't even know what to say about 2009 but the tiebreaker bit us in the butt to keep the Pats out of the playoffs. 2010... defense really needs to do better if they want to contend in the postseason.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Re: Brady vs Montana: First 9 years

Manning hasn't owned Brady since 2005.

Actually, if you look at the head to head win/loss record since 2005, Manning has owned Brady. Why do you bring up QB rating all of the sudden? For years I thought the Brady/Manning debate was to ignore the fancy numbers and look at wins, period, for why Brady was better. All of the sudden, it's about the numbers now? The standard used seems to be a moving target without consistency.

Brady's numbers against Montana are inflated, because everyone's passing numbers have been inflated since 2004. If we are going to go by numbers, Peyton Manning has superior career stats to Brady.

If Brady wins 2 more Superbowls before he's done, then he is the GOAT. If he wins 1 more, a strong case can still be made for Montana and maybe a few other QB's for GOAT.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Montana had Rice and Taylor. But he's also 4-0 in his superbowl appearances. Brady is 3-1. So Brady has to win a few more if he wants to surpass Montana in that area. Interestingly enough, Brady got all his SB wins before Moss/Welker arrived in New England.

The Pats defense has to get good enough to hold onto leads. The Pats missed getting to the bowl by giving up leads in the AFCCG to the Colts in 2006 and most infamously to the Giants in the last 2 minutes of the Bowl in 2007. 2008 was a lost year due to injury. I don't even know what to say about 2009 but the tiebreaker bit us in the butt to keep the Pats out of the playoffs. 2010... defense really needs to do better if they want to contend in the postseason.

Jerry Rice and John Taylor didn't join the team until Joe Montana had already won 2 rings with no-name offensive talent around him, and he already had multiple epic TD winning drives on his resume. Montana won several big games, on TD's (where a FG was no help) after his defense gave up scores. The 49ers were bottom dwellers before Montana joined the franchise. The Montana-Brady parallels are good/apt because Brady showed he makes players around him better too, winning before Moss and Welker. The difference is after the first 7 years in their careers.

Montana finished strong in his career, whereas Brady hasn't been as clutch as he was. Tom Brady is 1-8 in his last 8 road games, and his 4th quarter QB rating is terrible over the past 18 games, if not more (I didn't look past 18 games). The Colts have a big win/loss advantage over the Pats since 2005.



I looked up their playoff performances.

Joe Montana
Joe Montana Gamelogs and Game Logs | Pro-Football-Reference.com
23 games, 45TD, 21 int, 95.6 QB rating.

Tom Brady
Tom Brady Gamelogs and Game Logs | Pro-Football-Reference.com
18 games, 28TD, 15int, 85.5 QB rating.

In Brady's last 7 playoff games, he has had a QB rating under 83 five times. In three of those games his QB rating was below 67.

So, Brady is probably top 3 right now with a chance to become the best all time, but he has to do more to definitively be better than Joe Montana was. Comparing current inflated passing stats to stats 20 years ago, isn't really that impressive, especially when you have a guy like Peyton who has better modern day numbers.

 

[Wolfpack]

Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Roger Craig didn't join the team until Joe Montana had already won 2 rings with no-name offensive talent around him,

Roger Craig was a key contributor to Montana's 2nd Super Bowl victory, SB 19. And I hardly consider Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon to be "no-name offensive talent". If Dwight Clark didn't make the greatest catch of all time on a pass Montana admits he was throwing away, then that's one less ring.

Montana finished strong in his career, whereas Brady hasn't been as clutch as he was. Tom Brady is 1-8 in his last 8 road games, and his 4th quarter QB rating is terrible over the past 18 games, if not more (I didn't look past 18 games).

First of all, when someone starts cherry picking their stats, it's clear they have a losing argument.

Second of all, it is impossible to be 1-8 in your past 8 road games.

Third of all, the Patriots won 2 road games last year. So your stat should read he is 2-7 in their last 9 road games. Of course, I guess it's also true that he is 10-7 in his last 17 road games. And I suppose he's 20-1 in his last 21 home games. But see my above comment re: cherry picking.

So, Brady is probably top 3 right now with a chance to become the best all time, but he has to do more to definitively be better than Joe Montana was. Comparing current inflated passing stats to stats 20 years ago, isn't really that impressive, especially when you have a guy like Peyton who has better modern day numbers.

We pretty much agree here. Nobody is going to care that Brady went 2-7 on the road in '09-'10 just like no one cares that Montana went 3-6 in '82. People are going to remember the total number of rings and how they played in the biggest games. Right now, Brady is one notch below Montana. To me, Manning is comparable to Favre... couple league MVP's, ridiculously high statistics, but 1-1 in the Super Bowl. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but it's not on the same level as Montana or Brady.

 

[kolbitr]

I have no problem with putting Montana on the top of the all-time QB list, but come on--is it too much to ask for people to get some facts right? Roger Craig *was* on the 1984 49er team that went 15 and 1 and beat Miami in the Super Bowl...in fact he had a pretty important role in that game, scoring three touchdowns.

And I wouldn't call Russ Francis, Dwight Clark, and Wendell Tyler no-name players. He did make the speedsters Solomon and Nehemiah into football players, though.

Montana was a tremendous big-game player, with three seasons of practically perfect playoff quarterbacking (in 89, 90, and 91--SF should have gone to the SB again that year), but he also had some tremendous stinkers in between Super Bowl wins 2 and 3...admittedly against a few of the all-time great defenses...

Edit: Argh, beaten by Wolfpack

 

[Wolfpack]

Edit: Argh, beaten by Wolfpack

Recognize! :rocker:

But I did forget Ronaldo Nehemiah - shame on me!

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Second of all, it is impossible to be 1-8 in your past 8 road games.

Third of all, the Patriots won 2 road games last year. So your stat should read he is 2-7 in their last 9 road games.

Tom Brady has won 1 of his past 8 road games. Happy?
Playing in London on a neutral field against maybe the worst team in 2009 doesn't count as a road game.

You still haven't addressed Brady's poor 4th quarter QB rating going back at least 18 games, or his poor win/loss record against Peyton Manning since 2005.


I love Brady as much as the next guy, but he's not better than Montana at this point in his total accomplishments. He may have better looking stats due to playing in an inflated passing era, but even in the inflated era his playoff stats don't compare.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I stand corrected on Roger Craig, but the same thing can be said about having Corey Dillon for the last Pats championship. The other players were made famous by Montana, the same way Brady made some players famous like Deion Branch.

 

[Wolfpack]

Tom Brady has won 1 of his past 8 road games. Happy?
Playing in London on a neutral field against maybe the worst team in 2009 doesn't count as a road game.

Personally I think it should count twice. But see this is what I meant about cherry picking stats. I bet you'd be counting that London game if they had lost it, wouldn't you?

You still haven't addressed Brady's poor 4th quarter QB rating going back at least 18 games, or his poor win/loss record against Peyton Manning since 2005.

I don't really find it worthy of being addressed. You're just cherry picking and when all is said and done, no one is going to give a crap about Tom Brady's 4th quarter QB rating during the 3 season period stretching from 2005 to 2009 (or whatever).

I love Brady as much as the next guy, but he's not better than Montana at this point in his total accomplishments. He may have better looking stats due to playing in an inflated passing era, but even in the inflated era his playoff stats don't compare.

Then on that point we agree.

 

[Jetssuck]

Re: Brady vs Montana: First 9 years

Actually, if you look at the head to head win/loss record since 2005, Manning has owned Brady. Why do you bring up QB rating all of the sudden? For years I thought the Brady/Manning debate was to ignore the fancy numbers and look at wins, period, for why Brady was better. All of the sudden, it's about the numbers now? The standard used seems to be a moving target without consistency.

Brady's numbers against Montana are inflated, because everyone's passing numbers have been inflated since 2004. If we are going to go by numbers, Peyton Manning has superior career stats to Brady.

If Brady wins 2 more Superbowls before he's done, then he is the GOAT. If he wins 1 more, a strong case can still be made for Montana and maybe a few other QB's for GOAT.

I didn't say Brady was better than Montana. You just shouldn't lie about Montana's defense. He had a much better defense than Brady.

The passing rules have inflated numbers. True. But Montana had the advantage of playing in a league with no salary cap. Could SF had kept all those good players as long as they did with a cap? With a salary cap, wouldn't teams like the Saints and Falcons been more competitive when playing the Niners?

While you are talking about inflated stats because of rule changes, don't forget inflated stats because of playing in a dome and playing in a weak AFC South division. When Manning left the AFC East his career rating was about 85.

Brady has the playoff success, the rings, and the greatest statistical season ever. A more impressive resume in 8 seasons than what Manning has in 12 seasons.

Montana>Brady>>Manning.