PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Brady defends Moss...


Status
Not open for further replies.
1.) A patently absurd position to take

:rofl: The all powerful Deus has spoken, how dare I question his ability to watch a game! Classic

2.) Ok, here's your chance:

a.) did Moss give enough effort/focus in that Chargers game that he would have been excluded from Belicick's remarks?

b.) did Moss give enough effort/focus in the Panthers game that he should be excluded from the remarks that have been made by people like Harrison, Brady, Carter, Rice, King, et al.?

3.) Yes, your arguments have indeed been pathetic.

2a) I would have to go back and watch the game to even be able to give my opinion on whether it LOOKED like any one in particular was giving effort. Team effort is one thing, each individuals effort is a little bit different.

2b) "excluded" from the remarks? They are only talking about Moss' effort. And YES he gave sufficient effort that it should not be questioned.


Let me put this gently.....

This is a message board, not a criminal case in a court of law. There's no need to prove anything beyond a doubt. If you're going to demand such a standard on a message board, I'll put it to you to prove it, every time.

Now, if you wish to keep massaging Moss with your every post, you should feel free to do so. You and the apparently extreme minority of other people who saw no problem with Moss' performance on Sunday should keep on living in the world of rainbows and unicorns. The rest of us will try to muddle on in the real world.

And you calling me a clown, given your performance on this issue, is a rich, and joyous, cup of irony. "Beyond doubt"..... great stuff.

More great stuff from the great Deus. So no you cannot even begin to back up any of your assertions so you talk about this not being a "criminal case in a court of law". It's pretty pathetic that you believe you have the right to go around throwing your opinion around and never be called to task to back up any of your points. You state things as if they are fact and back up nothing. When I call you to task, you avoid the questions, deflect, throw out red herrings, etc...

It's quite pitiful, and yes I realize that I've sunken to your pathetic level the last couple days, but I'm tired of your pompous attitude.
 
Note: I have to separate this into two posts because my original response was too long. Have fun with this one. :D

I don't recall saying that Belichick's pressers were indicative of his persona with the players, with family, at the grocery store or at the dentist. Perhaps in your crazy mind I made some sort of connection there.

Swing and a miss...

Given that he just defended Moss for ESPN, along with Brady, Bruschi and Rodney, yea, I'd say he's probably going to reinforce his support of Randy more than tear him down this week. But hey, maybe he's just being polite? That is, after all, what Belichick is known for -- indulging and placating the media.
Only a moron would join the chorus of people publicly, defiantly defending Moss and then go behind close doors and undress him in front of the one group of people he needs to support him most.
This is absurd, absolutist nonsense. Belichick of all people knows that certain personalities need different handling. How forcefully he's addressed the press, which he himself holds in utter disdain, to clear Moss' name on this issue makes it clear.
Implicit in his (and the team's) forceful defense of Randy is that he will go out of his way to protect, what he himself calls, one of their best players.

You've been arguing in this entire thread that BB's persona is the exact same with his players as when he's addressing the media. That's actually been the central theme of your argument - that BB isn't going to "tear down" Moss because he vehemently defended him in the press. Can't wait to see how you argue semantics on this one. Strike 1.

I side-stepped nothing. I answered the question directly.

If that's your version of "answering the question directly" then your version of side-stepping probably sees you throwing your computer against the wall.

And plagiarism is bad form. Is that how you tried to coast through your logic class as well, off of the work of others?

Don't be jealous that this is the only place where I plagiarize your work. I couldn't very well cause my professors to have a mild coronary at the sheer stupidity and ridiculousness of "my" papers. By the way, since I know you care so much, I got a 94 on my exam. :D

You did no such thing. In fact, your entire series of posts here have been a smorgasbord of confused, schizophrenic conflations, false dilemmas, strawmen and flat out false statements.

That's only because I'm trying to sort through your idiotic logic. The fact that you aren't even sure of what you're saying is hilarious.

You're awfully sure of this for someone who hasn't been able to form a coherent position or rebuttal on this issue.

Sure I have. You might have missed it since you're probably in your office playing a tape recorder of yourself talking and masturbating to the sound of your own voice while Janice holds the calls from your mother who wants to know if you're ever going to give her a grandchild, but it was there. My position is that BB and Brady and anyone else should damn well support Moss in the media to get him firmly on the bandwagon with the team. My position is that BB should then refrain from cutting Moss slack behind closed doors in the team meeting and let him know that his performance (along with the performance of a Sammy Morris, Tom Brady, and pretty much the entire O-Line) needs to improve. I've backed up my position to show that BB never really throws anybody under the bus to the press, which is why it shouldn't come as a suprise that he's defending Moss. I've backed up my position on BB's lack of cutting anybody slack by pointing out a potentially horrible situation which included the death of a family member of another former superstar that was on the team. The same superstar was then deactivated for a quarter for taking the extra day (whether he called in to request it or not) to mourn the loss. And I've also backed up my position on the fact that BB won't show Moss any more slack than the rest of the team by pointing out exactly what he said to Moss when he first arrived in New England.

Your position includes stating that BB will NOT point out Moss' bad play in the film room and have backed it up by pointing out how he talked about Moss to the press. This is a point which you have since not been able to "recall". Perhaps some Alzheimer's medication is in order for you?

Do you guarantee it, Anthony Smith?

Oh, how the ROFLcopters are flying with that one! What a knee slapper! You must be a huge hit at Brandsmart USA's yearly Christmas parties. And no, I'll do you one better. I'll guarun-damn-tee it.

That was two years ago, this was two days ago. It seems you're not terribly good with timelines or temporal reasoning.

Weak attempt at a point. Two years ago or not, BB isn't the type to go back on his word, especially when that word comes to his policy about how he's going to handle any one player or the team.

That Belichick sure is stubborn for someone who's known to adapt to the situation in front of him.

Another weak attempt at a point. Adapting to the situation in front of him on the field and adapting to the situation in front of him with a player that, pretty clearly, gave up on plays during a game are two different things. Add in the fact that Moss is a team captain and a supposed leader, and your attempt at a point becomes even more ridiculous. Strike 2.

I dismissed it because the events were one month apart, and supposedly Randy actually contacted Brady later to express hurt from the first incident. Since then, Brady has defended Moss to the media and been seen trying to give him a pep talk on the sideline. That doesn't really support anything you drooled onto your keyboard.

Sigh. Timing is everything with your argument in this one, as you can't even remember inferring that I was a moron for thinking that BB would actually back Moss up in the press and then confront him about his play behind closed doors. I responded by asking you if you think that Brady is moronic for doing the same thing. By the way, Brady has been asked these questions about Moss before this past Sunday. But I guess that pointing that out would be inconvenient to your argument, wouldn't it?

That was then, this is now.


That was then, this is now.

BB also let a starting safety named Lawyer Milloy go because he thought other guys could step up and replace him. That was the 2003 season. BB then let a starting defensive end named Richard Seymour go because he wanted to get a pick for him and thought other guys could step up and replace him. That was the 2009 season. Your "that was then, this is now" argument is weak. BB has, pretty clearly, shown that he carries the same method in executing his job over a period of years... much less months.

That was Seymour, this is Randy.

And they are only different in the position that they play, name, height, weight, and number. Other than that, both were (in the case of Seymour) and are (in the case of Moss) superstars on the team, one of the best (if not THE best in Seymour) guys on the field when their unit is in, and team leaders/captains. How he dealt with Seymour should, without a shadow of a doubt, give some sort of hint of how he's going to deal with Moss. Are you really having that much trouble understanding this? Surely you aren't this obtuse.

Again with the attempt at a wild goose chase. You don't even qualify what you're looking for, you're just flailing.

Oh yeah. I should have remembered who I was talking to. The guy that needs everything set in stone for him to know what he needs to do. What I am looking for is clear, undeniable evidence (you can find this on Google if you'd like) that Bill Belichick has given any one player a free pass in the film room a week after that player, along with others, did not have a good game. You have yet to offer up anything relevant that has even remotely backed up your point that BB will give Moss a free pass for the Panthers game because he is not in a good mental state. Instead, you've substituted your opportunity to offer up this evidence with repeatedly trying make it look like I'm the one in this debate that has no offered up anything to back up his own point. Powerful debate tactic if you're an idiot. Unfortunately, it isn't going to work in this case.

I mean, this is how I assume you look right now:

RageFace2.png

And this is how I assume you look right now...

6btk8qh.jpg
 
Last edited:
Part II of Kontradiction's form of the "Communist Manifesto"...

Sucks to be Seymour, but he isn't Randy. Maybe he's made of sterner stuff, ego wise. Doesn't really change the fact that he isn't Randy. The comparison between the two is silly.

Yes, because Seymour isn't Randy he's going to get deactivated for missing practice time over the death of a close relative while Moss will get glossed over for quitting in a game. It all makes sense to me now. :rolleyes:

Oh, he might comment on it. But not with "equality" to the rest of the player's performances.

So now you're backing off on your original stance in favor of arguing semantics. Exellent job.

By the way, I'm pleased you didn't again attempt to refute the point that you don't actually have a mastery of logic or rhetoric, and certainly not what does and does not constitute a logical fallacy. Though it would have been nice if you admitted as much instead of simply failing to respond

I thought I made it pretty clear in my edit description of why I failed to respond to the "scintillating" logical fallacy debate. I come here for football, not to talk about critical thinking and logical fallacies. It should come as no suprise that I no longer felt like debating it after having gone through four months of having it drilled into my head.

after saying you wouldn't respond to any of this. ;)

Well look who's talking. :eek: You, more than anyone, should not be criticizing me for re-entering this debate (and subsequently wiping the floor with your "points") especially when you posted this in your third reponse to the thread...

No, you don't. You just want to get into a tit-for-tat link/quote pissing match. No interest, sorry.

...strike 3.
 
2b) "excluded" from the remarks? They are only talking about Moss' effort. And YES he gave sufficient effort that it should not be questioned.

Ok, now...... what do you base this "YES" on? What is your evidence that Moss gave "sufficient effort that it should not be questioned."
 
Ok, now...... what do you base this "YES" on? What is your evidence that Moss gave "sufficient effort that it should not be questioned."

I see the debate that you're in is bordering on the ridiculous as well. :cool:
 
I see the debate that you're in is bordering on the ridiculous as well. :cool:

Sadly, the border was crossed a long time ago, and on multiple threads, at that. :(
 
Last edited:
Ok, now...... what do you base this "YES" on? What is your evidence that Moss gave "sufficient effort that it should not be questioned."

There is no reason (and no proof) to believe otherwise.

Do you believe Brady and Welker gave full effort?
 
Last edited:
I see the debate that you're in is bordering on the ridiculous as well. :cool:

The ridiculous part being that Deus believes he can make a statement such as Moss wasn't giving full effort and think that I have to prove him wrong.
 
Sadly, the border was crossed a long time ago, and on multiple threads, at that. :(

Agreed. Not only has the border been crossed, but a missile has been sent at it and had it knocked into the Pacific Ocean.
 
The ridiculous part being that Deus believes he can make a statement such as Moss wasn't giving full effort and think that I have to prove him wrong.

I'm not about to jump in on your guys' portion of the debate but Moss, pretty clearly, wasn't giving it his all. The way he was, not only in the game, but also on the sidelines should tell you that much.
 
I'm not about to jump in on your guys' portion of the debate but Moss, pretty clearly, wasn't giving it his all. The way he was, not only in the game, but also on the sidelines should tell you that much.

Joy another of the body language brigade. But I guess you've been at each of the games and watched Moss' every move at every game. I'm also sure you have a degree in body language so you can definitively determine how much effort each person is given based on a TV feed of a few plays. You can also just throw out individuality and expect everyone's body language to be exactly the same. :rolleyes:
 
There is no reason (and no proof) to believe otherwise.

Former teammates, and Carolina players, have stated it to be the case. That would be 'reason'. The evidence would include his play, including the fumble, the lack of effort on the out route, the drop of the pass that hit him right in the arms, etc... as well as the aforementioned people and others.

So, again I ask you,

What is your evidence that Moss gave "sufficient effort that it should not be questioned."?


Do you believe Brady and Welker gave full effort?

Again with the hareng rouge.... The issue at hand is Moss, not Brady or Welker.
 
Joy another of the body language brigade. But I guess you've been at each of the games and watched Moss' every move at every game. I'm also sure you have a degree in body language so you can definitively determine how much effort each person is given based on a TV feed of a few plays. You can also just throw out individuality and expect everyone's body language to be exactly the same. :rolleyes:

I'm confused here..... wasn't Gamble at the game? Wasn't he watching Moss' moves?

Also, why do players watch film of opposing players?
 
Last edited:
Apparently the only thing more sensitive than Randy is his blindly loyal core support on this board. If he's in nearly the denial they are Tom and Bill have their work cut out for them starting tomorrow...
 
Former teammates, and Carolina players, have stated it to be the case. That would be 'reason'. The evidence would include his play, including the fumble, the lack of effort on the out route, the drop of the pass that hit him right in the arms, etc... as well as the aforementioned people and others.

his play does NOT evidence lack of effort. Rather than reiterate over each of the plays, I will direct you to a post by Metaphors that explains it well:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...022-brady-defends-moss-page9.html#post1642775

So, again I ask you,

What is your evidence that Moss gave "sufficient effort that it should not be questioned."?

It is normal for Moss to give sufficient effort, and there was nothing in the game to suggest anything abnormal. Aside from some knee-jerk reactions, and searching for any blemish under the microscope, no one has given any evidence that he was lacking effort.

Again with the hareng rouge.... The issue at hand is Moss, not Brady or Welker.

Once again I answer you directly, and you avoid my direct questions. It's beyond pitiful how you cannot answer a simple and direct question. You are a complete fool Deus. Get over yourself.
 
I'm confused here..... wasn't Gamble at the game? Wasn't he watching Moss' moves?

Also, why do players watch film of opposing players?

Really back to the Gamble defense again? :sigh:

If Moss looks exactly the same when he is jogging as he does when he is running at full speed, what exactly is watching his body language going to tell you about how fast he's running? Oh that's right, absolutely nothing. But keep grasping.
 
Apparently the only thing more sensitive than Randy is his blindly loyal core support on this board. If he's in nearly the denial they are Tom and Bill have their work cut out for them starting tomorrow...

I'm sorry but defending against an obvious bias due to an unfair reputation given to a guy by the media is not the same as blindly loyal support. The fact of the matter is, that no other player has his effort called into question like Moss. And Moss' effort is no different on the playing field every Sunday than any of those other receivers. He's just under the microscope and is an easy target. it's easy to target and scapegoat Moss when he doesn't respond or correct you.
 
his play does NOT evidence lack of effort. Rather than reiterate over each of the plays, I will direct you to a post by Metaphors that explains it well:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...022-brady-defends-moss-page9.html#post1642775



It is normal for Moss to give sufficient effort, and there was nothing in the game to suggest anything abnormal. Aside from some knee-jerk reactions, and searching for any blemish under the microscope, no one has given any evidence that he was lacking effort.



Once again I answer you directly, and you avoid my direct questions. It's beyond pitiful how you cannot answer a simple and direct question. You are a complete fool Deus. Get over yourself.

Funny, this is about you answering the question. You've not done so, instead trying to shuffle me off to someone else's post, which doesn't prove your assertion. You're now bringing in Metaphor and his "hypothetical" (you know, those things you were deriding earlier). Metaphor's post is not dispositive. he is, in fact, merely stating his opinion, as people on both sides of the issue have done. You continue to try bringing in Brady and Welker to the question, when they are irrelevant, and making such claims as

It is normal for Moss to give sufficient effort, and there was nothing in the game to suggest anything abnormal.

When that's clearly a false statement, as evidenced by all the postgame discussions, both locally and nationally.

Now, what is your evidence that Moss gave "sufficient effort that it should not be questioned."?

What is your "Effort-o-meter"?
 
Last edited:
Funny, this is about you answering the question. You've not done so, instead trying to shuffle me off to someone else's post, which doesn't prove your assertion. You're now bringing in Metaphor and his "hypothetical" (you know, those things you were deriding earlier). Metaphor's post is not dispositive. he is, in fact, merely stating his opinion.

I never realized you were so lacking in comprehension, wow. You clearly didn't read the post I linked to. Another poster described the 4 plays that were thrown Moss' way, of which you accused him of lacking effort on, and I agree with that poster and believe he explained it sufficiently well. Rather than repeat it in similar words, I linked to what is already there for you to read.

Here are the 4 times he was targeted:

- Reception and fumble. Look at the tape...did he have the ball secured? Yep. Did he appear to be trying to recover the ball after the fumble? Yep. Good route by Moss. Routine catch. Ball security was good, but not good enough to prevent a fumble on a good defensive hit.

- Brady interception. Described above.

- Drop over the middle. Pass was high but Moss has reeled those in fairly often. He gave it a good try but wasn't able to pull it in.

- Drop on a slant. This was his worst play. He was quick in his route (hardly a lack of effort) but had horrible concentration. Took his eyes off the ball. Whether he was being defensive (not wanting to take a lick over the middle) or just looking upfield to get extra yards, his effort was good but the execution was horrific.

Add in the plays where he was supposed to draw coverage deep and the plays where he needed to block on outside runs, and the tape doesn't point to a lack of effort at all. He absolutely wasn't locked in with maximum focus on this game. He is a different dude so nobody can tell how a sore back, constant double coverage, Brady being less effective downfield and being sent home from practice affected him. He may be in a funk. It may have just been a bad day. Who knows? All I know is that he has the right people vouching for him and nobody that matters criticizing him. Good enough for me.



You know, like most people on both sides of the issue have done. You continue to try bringing in Brady and Welker to the question, when they are irrelevant, and making such claims as

It is normal for Moss to give sufficient effort, and there was nothing in the game to suggest anything abnormal.

When that's clearly a blatantly false statement, as evidenced by all the postgame discussions, both locally and nationally.

The media, whose only goal is ratings, is not evidence of anything. For you to continue to argue that it is, shows your lack of ability to think for yourself.

Now, what is your evidence that Moss gave "sufficient effort that it should not be questioned."?

What is your "Effort-o-meter"?


Again I do not need evidence in a specific case to prove the NORM. Moss normally gives good effort, as evidenced by his HOF career. If you want to argue an instance when he did not, the onus is 100% on you. What is YOUR "Effort-o-meter"? The 'patently absurd' eyeball test? The weak and easily influenced human memory?
 
It is normal for Moss to give sufficient effort, and there was nothing in the game to suggest anything abnormal. Aside from some knee-jerk reactions, and searching for any blemish under the microscope, no one has given any evidence that he was lacking effort.

You are what is called a not-so-artful dodger. Just stop. Regardless of the endless commentaries, we know what we saw.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/16: News and Notes
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/15: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-14, Mock Draft 3.0, Gilmore, Law Rally For Bill 
Potential Patriot: Boston Globe’s Price Talks to Georgia WR McConkey
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/12: News and Notes
Not a First Round Pick? Hoge Doubles Down on Maye
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/11: News and Notes
Back
Top