Brady defends Moss...

[The Dynasty]

I don't know, it's quite possible. I don't have nearly enough information to determine what the exact correct route was in that situation. Nor can I determine what Brady or Moss was seeing at the time. But we can always just play it back in slow mo over and over again and stamp the laziness title on Moss, it's just easier than admitting we don't know something.

When Welker turned up field while Brady expected him to keep going accross the middle earlier in the year, can you definitively say who was right? Was Welker not trying hard enough? Was Brady not trying hard enough?

It is very possible even if Moss didnt see the same thing that Brady did, Moss just doesnt give up on the play and just stop running and come to a stand still.

What proof do you have that Moss is giving 100% effort out there? Almost all of the indications are pointing to him lacking effort and not giving 100%. Just watch the tape again.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Wait.... YOU'RE calling someone else out for the intelligence of their posting?

Pure. Comedy. Gold.

Thanks for the answer and congrats on your superior effort.

 

[emoney_33]

It is very possible even if Moss didnt see the same thing that Brady did, Moss just doesnt give up on the play and just stop running and come to a stand still.

What proof do you have that Moss is giving 100% effort out there? Almost all of the indications are pointing to him lacking effort and not giving 100%. Just watch the tape again.

You are really stubborn. Moss didn't give up on the play, he pushed him out of bounds. Please stop making things up, honestly it's getting ridiculous.

The only indication pointing to lack of effort is from the biased media and influenced fans. I can watch the tape 100 times and it isn't going to tell me a damn thing about Randy's effort or thought process. You can't even tell if he's jogging or running full speed by just watching him run. He was in on what like 71 plays or something? You saw him for not even 1/2 of a handful of plays and just know he's dogging it?

 

[emoney_33]

It was an obvious answer to an obvious question. If you are frustrated by poor play, you try harder.

Wait so it is NOT possible to already be trying your hardest? Keep tip toeing Deus, now quickly deflect!

 

[tanked_as_usual]

there's not a whole lot left to discuss.......if BB feels Moss provides value for his salary, he will keep him........if he feels he no longer does, he will let him go.

case closed. the dog is dead. please stop beating it.

 

[The Dynasty]

You are really stubborn. Moss didn't give up on the play, he pushed him out of bounds. Please stop making things up, honestly it's getting ridiculous.

The only indication pointing to lack of effort is from the biased media and influenced fans. I can watch the tape 100 times and it isn't going to tell me a damn thing about Randy's effort or thought process. You can't even tell if he's jogging or running full speed by just watching him run. He was in on what like 71 plays or something? You saw him for not even 1/2 of a handful of plays and just know he's dogging it?

Come on, that wasnt a push. He simply touched him and got credit for a tackle.

It isnt like just a few media members are writing and reporting on this, THEY ALL ARE. It isnt just the national media, it is the local media as well.

You must be blind if you cannot tell that Moss isnt giving 100% effort. Does he look like someone that cares when you see him sitting by himself on the bench?

Clearly you one of the VERY few that are defending Moss, shouldnt this be a sign that you are possibly wrong

 

[emoney_33]

Come on, that wasnt a push. He simply touched him and got credit for a tackle.

Oh so to please you he should have flung the guy to the ground and got a penalty? Or maybe he could have took the ball from him after the play and ran away with it? You said he stopped dead and quit on the play, when in fact he played it out until the END (after the DB went oob, it's over).

It isnt like just a few media members are writing and reporting on this, THEY ALL ARE. It isnt just the national media, it is the local media as well.

And they all were attacking BB during spygate. They all jump at every opportunity to bring him down and attack his character. You have no point here, and I don't give a damn about the dumb media. They don't like guys who make their jobs more difficult. They also tend to take it easy on guys who make their jobs easier.

You must be blind if you cannot tell that Moss isnt giving 100% effort. Does he look like someone that cares when you see him sitting by himself on the bench?

You are a stubborn fool and believe that you can look at a TV feed and determine these things. You were probably one of those couch psychiatrists talking about Brady's body language a few years back.

Clearly you one of the VERY few that are defending Moss, shouldnt this be a sign that you are possibly wrong

No actually it isn't a sign of anything.

 

[Metaphors]

It is very possible even if Moss didnt see the same thing that Brady did, Moss just doesnt give up on the play and just stop running and come to a stand still.

I'll give you a plausible scenario, though we have no idea what the actual situation was.

- Moss read the DB who had deep outside leverage with safety help inside
- Moss sat in the hole since running outside could let the DB undercut the route
- Brady read inside leverage and threw a deep out
- Brady was under pressure and threw off his back foot, causing the ball to sail
- By the time Moss locates the high pass, it is too late to get the ball in flight
- Moss goes after the DB and tries to rip the ball out to prevent the interception

This makes much more sense than Moss giving up on the route. Why did he seem surprised when the ball was thrown outside if he was just dogging it? Why did he go after the DB trying to prevent the interception if he doesn't care?

What proof do you have that Moss is giving 100% effort out there? Almost all of the indications are pointing to him lacking effort and not giving 100%. Just watch the tape again.

Here are the 4 times he was targeted:

- Reception and fumble. Look at the tape...did he have the ball secured? Yep. Did he appear to be trying to recover the ball after the fumble? Yep. Good route by Moss. Routine catch. Ball security was good, but not good enough to prevent a fumble on a good defensive hit.

- Brady interception. Described above.

- Drop over the middle. Pass was high but Moss has reeled those in fairly often. He gave it a good try but wasn't able to pull it in.

- Drop on a slant. This was his worst play. He was quick in his route (hardly a lack of effort) but had horrible concentration. Took his eyes off the ball. Whether he was being defensive (not wanting to take a lick over the middle) or just looking upfield to get extra yards, his effort was good but the execution was horrific.

Add in the plays where he was supposed to draw coverage deep and the plays where he needed to block on outside runs, and the tape doesn't point to a lack of effort at all. He absolutely wasn't locked in with maximum focus on this game. He is a different dude so nobody can tell how a sore back, constant double coverage, Brady being less effective downfield and being sent home from practice affected him. He may be in a funk. It may have just been a bad day. Who knows? All I know is that he has the right people vouching for him and nobody that matters criticizing him. Good enough for me.

 

[Kontradiction]

It's a shame you're out of the loop, then.

I'd venture to guess that the majority of the fanbase is out of the loop on that, then. Since you put so much weight on what BB says in his postgame pressers, you should feel confident in defending the fact that some of BB's favorite expressions are "the offense could have made some better plays out there" and not "Randy Moss could have made some better plays out there". Twelve bonus points for a copout though...

I think Belichick should do his best, whatever that may be.

Nice job side-stepping the question. How about you just say "I'd rather not commit to an answer on this at all" and stop posting on the topic?

And I, along with Dungy and everyone else, will reserve the right to comment on it. Conflating the that with "Belichick should follow Dungy's advice" is disingenuous.

No it isn't, as I have already pointed out.

You're working hard to steal the crown on this one.

Nice "I am rubber, you are glue" comeback.

Implicit in his (and the team's) forceful defense of Randy is that he will go out of his way to protect, what he himself calls, one of their best players.

Of course he would say that Moss is one of his best players. This STILL doesn't confront the fact that he will (if he hasn't already) mentioned Moss' bad play, or the bad play in the passing game altogether, in the film room. He will do it. If you disagree with this, then perhaps you should go seek the information on what BB told Moss in Moss' first team meeting with the Patriots. He isn't going to change what he does just because Randy is having a tough mental week and is being bombarded in the press.

Yes I have.

Perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to where you posted that "sound" piece of information, because I've yet to see it in a single response that you've given. So far, my main points that I have used to confront your so called "points" includes: Brady calling Moss out in practice then defending him with the media (which you, of course, dismissed because it was inconvenient to your argument), an example on how BB cursed the entire team out after the Colts game and didn't exclude anybody no matter how well one particular person played, and how Belichick dealed with Seymour after the death of his grandfather on top of bringing up BB's words to Moss about how each and every player on the team will be treated two years ago. Now I'll ask this again: where are your examples? Where is your evidence?

Whoa ho, Master Logician. Let's back up a second before you hurt yourself.

What we know is: Seymour was one date late and Seymour was deactivated for the first quarter of the following game. We don't know if he formally requested the extra time or not, and we don't know if he was denied the time and then ignored Belichick's ordering him back to practice. Further, we also don't know if, for someone like Seymour, that was the right call versus someone like Moss who we can clearly see the results of lost confidence in.

And this changes the fact that BB deactivated Seymour how? No matter if Seymour requested it, then ignored it or not, BB still deactivated him after the death of his grandfather. And you still seriously think that he isn't going to comment on Moss' play this weekend?

Which is good, and no one said they would.

That was sarcasm. Not suprised you couldn't catch it. Regarless, sarcasm or not, you're coming pretty close to implying that they should.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Come on, that wasnt a push. He simply touched him and got credit for a tackle.

It isnt like just a few media members are writing and reporting on this, THEY ALL ARE. It isnt just the national media, it is the local media as well.

You must be blind if you cannot tell that Moss isnt giving 100% effort. Does he look like someone that cares when you see him sitting by himself on the bench?

Clearly you one of the VERY few that are defending Moss, shouldnt this be a sign that you are possibly wrong

He's not blind. You are an idiot for believing you KNOW Moss is not giving 100% effort.

This is confirmed by the fact that only an idiot would give the local and national media credence.

 

[DaedalusX]

I'd venture to guess that the majority of the fanbase is out of the loop on that, then. Since you put so much weight on what BB says in his postgame pressers, you should feel confident in defending the fact that some of BB's favorite expressions are "the offense could have made some better plays out there" and not "Randy Moss could have made some better plays out there".

I don't recall saying that Belichick's pressers were indicative of his persona with the players, with family, at the grocery store or at the dentist. Perhaps in your crazy mind I made some sort of connection there.

Nice job side-stepping the question. How about you just say "I'd rather not commit to an answer on this at all" and stop posting on the topic?

I side-stepped nothing. I answered the question directly.

And plagiarism is bad form. Is that how you tried to coast through your logic class as well, off of the work of others?

No it isn't, as I have already pointed out.

You did no such thing. In fact, your entire series of posts here have been a smorgasbord of confused, schizophrenic conflations, false dilemmas, strawmen and flat out false statements.

Of course he would say that Moss is one of his best players. This STILL doesn't confront the fact that he will (if he hasn't already) mentioned Moss' bad play, or the bad play in the passing game altogether, in the film room.

You're awfully sure of this for someone who hasn't been able to form a coherent position or rebuttal on this issue.

He will do it.

Do you guarantee it, Anthony Smith?

If you disagree with this, then perhaps you should go seek the information on what BB told Moss in Moss' first team meeting with the Patriots.

That was two years ago, this was two days ago. It seems you're not terribly good with timelines or temporal reasoning.

He isn't going to change what he does just because Randy is having a tough mental week and is being bombarded in the press.

That Belichick sure is stubborn for someone who's known to adapt to the situation in front of him.

So far, my main points that I have used to confront your so called "points" includes: Brady calling Moss out in practice then defending him with the media (which you, of course, dismissed because it was inconvenient to your argument)

I dismissed it because the events were one month apart, and supposedly Randy actually contacted Brady later to express hurt from the first incident. Since then, Brady has defended Moss to the media and been seen trying to give him a pep talk on the sideline. That doesn't really support anything you drooled onto your keyboard.

an example on how BB cursed the entire team out after the Colts game and didn't exclude anybody no matter how well one particular person played,

That was then, this is now.

and how Belichick dealed with Seymour after the death of his grandfather on top of bringing up BB's words to Moss about how each and every player on the team will be treated two years ago.

That was then, this is now. That was Seymour, this is Randy.

Now I'll ask this again: where are your examples? Where is your evidence?

Again with the attempt at a wild goose chase. You don't even qualify what you're looking for, you're just flailing. I mean, this is how I assume you look right now:

And this changes the fact that BB deactivated Seymour how? No matter if Seymour requested it, then ignored it or not, BB still deactivated him after the death of his grandfather.

Sucks to be Seymour, but he isn't Randy. Maybe he's made of sterner stuff, ego wise. Doesn't really change the fact that he isn't Randy. The comparison between the two is silly.

And you still seriously think that he isn't going to comment on Moss' play this weekend?

Oh, he might comment on it. But not with "equality" to the rest of the player's performances.

That was sarcasm. Not suprised you couldn't catch it. Regarless, sarcasm or not, you're coming pretty close to implying that they should.

Not even remotely.

By the way, I'm pleased you didn't again attempt to refute the point that you don't actually have a mastery of logic or rhetoric, and certainly not what does and does not constitute a logical fallacy. Though it would have been nice if you admitted as much instead of simply failing to respond after saying you wouldn't respond to any of this.

 

[emoney_33]

It's highly unlikely that BB would skip film. It is highly unlikely that BB would not point out the mistakes in every aspect of the game and work to correct them. It is highly unlikely Moss would take offense to his personal mistakes being pointed out. It is highly unlikely BB would intentionally not point out someone's mistake to protect them.

Please don't fall into the media trap that has you thinking Moss is some fragile broken emotionally unstable person. He is human, but he is also professional.

 

[bigfandan]

You are absolutely right, they just would NOT do it. But it doesn't follow people's beliefs on who Randy is so people just work around it or ignore it. It's quite sad

Let's give Moss the benefit of the doubt; I just want Moss and Welker to be healthy in playoff (pray we make it) and whoever we can get out of other receivers....
Not much of a story here, Randy took some plays off. So does other #1 wrs. If he runs full speed for 60 yrds every passing play he will become exhausted after first 5 minutes. Welker is in a different boat; his routes are shorter; (he has been great). But Moss has being stretching the field for other guys.

 

[cartmen]

5 worst game avg. 18 rec, tot yards 312, 62.4 ypg, 0 TD pretty bad huh? Tell that to Texans fans cause thats Andre Johnson

anyone think he is slacking or dragged ass during those games. guess what there are stats like that for just about every receiver on the top 10 list. Except 1...

Last year everyone praised Moss for his leadership and how he had a down yet very productive year considering the issues.

Now with a QB who struggled for 3 weeks to get his bearings and an O coord who really has no game plan outside of go 4 wide and make Ben Watson wash his laundry he is on pace to smoke those numbers (he has already eclipsed all but one of them) people think he is done here. Maybe Rick Pitino had it right

 

[Deus Irae]

5 worst game avg. 18 rec, tot yards 312, 62.4 ypg, 0 TD pretty bad huh? Tell that to Texans fans cause thats Andre Johnson

anyone think he is slacking or dragged ass during those games. guess what there are stats like that for just about every receiver on the top 10 list. Except 1...

Last year everyone praised Moss for his leadership and how he had a down yet very productive year considering the issues.

Now with a QB who struggled for 3 weeks to get his bearings and an O coord who really has no game plan outside of go 4 wide and make Ben Watson wash his laundry he is on pace to smoke those numbers (he has already eclipsed all but one of them) people think he is done here. Maybe Rick Pitino had it right

Last year, Belichick was so concerned by effort/focus issues after the Chargers game that he called the team out publicly. Moss was obviously one of those being targeted, and his subsequent play indicated that he got the message.

Against Carolina, Moss had a game where his focus and/or effort was clearly not up to snuff. He dropped a gift pass, fumbled on a pretty weak hit, did a lot of half-hearted blocking and route running, and was at least partially responsible for an interception. It's what happened. It doesn't mean that Felger's right and Moss needs to be run out of town. It means that Moss has to do a better job at keeping himself attentive and motivated for the rest of the year.

 

[emoney_33]

Last year, Belichick was so concerned by effort/focus issues after the Chargers game that he called the team out publicly. Moss was obviously one of those being targeted, and his subsequent play indicated that he got the message.

How arrogant of you to continue to push the calling out the entire TEAM onto Moss. Ignorance is bliss, and all facts can be twisted to fit your arguments I guess.

Against Carolina, Moss had a game where his focus and/or effort was clearly not up to snuff. He dropped a gift pass, fumbled on a pretty weak hit, did a lot of half-hearted blocking and route running, and was at least partially responsible for an interception. It's what happened. It doesn't mean that Felger's right and Moss needs to be run out of town. It means that Moss has to do a better job at keeping himself attentive and motivated for the rest of the year.

Please prove beyond doubt the following:

1) The fumble was due to lack of focus/effort and it was a weak hit rather than a well placed hit.

2) Moss did "a lot" of "half-hearted" blocking and route running. (But first please define half-hearted and "a lot")

3) That he was even partially responsible for an interception.

4) Moss wasn't "attentive and motivated" against Carolina.

The crap that you spew and try to pass off as fact is amazing.

 

[RayClay]

Let's give Moss the benefit of the doubt; I just want Moss and Welker to be healthy in playoff (pray we make it) and whoever we can get out of other receivers....
Not much of a story here, Randy took some plays off. So does other #1 wrs. If he runs full speed for 60 yrds every passing play he will become exhausted after first 5 minutes. Welker is in a different boat; his routes are shorter; (he has been great). But Moss has being stretching the field for other guys.

Moss would probably be better off taking a week off. You realize, saying the word "injury" is against the code.

Thing is, it's still better for the team if people think he's dogging it or "frustrated". Then they still think. like those idiots in the Carolina secondary, that they intimidated him. If they think he can burn them if he wants to, they still double cover him, meaning nice games for Welker and Watson and Maroney.

If you think I'm blowing smoke, ask yourself this question. If we sit Moss, and Aikens is our #1 receiver, how many balls do Moss and Watson catch? How many plays does the opposition send safeties in the box and stuff our run game and disrupt Faulk?

 

[Deus Irae]

How arrogant of you to continue to push the calling out the entire TEAM onto Moss. Ignorance is bliss, and all facts can be twisted to fit your arguments I guess.

1.) I watched the game

2.) The irony here is, of course, that you chose to exclude Moss from Belichick's calling out of the team.

3.) If you feel you understand that ignorance is bliss, I'll assume you've got enough experience with it to know.

Please prove beyond doubt the following:

1) The fumble was due to lack of focus/effort and it was a weak hit rather than a well placed hit.

2) Moss did "a lot" of "half-hearted" blocking and route running. (But first please define half-hearted and "a lot")

3) That he was even partially responsible for an interception.

4) Moss wasn't "attentive and motivated" against Carolina.

The crap that you spew and try to pass off as fact is amazing.

Why on Earth would I fall for your straw men and red herrings again?

Please prove beyond doubt that the 4 items you posted above are not true.

 

[emoney_33]

1.) I watched the game

2.) The irony here is, of course, that you chose to exclude Moss from Belichick's calling out of the team.

3.) If you feel you understand that ignorance is bliss, I'll assume you've got enough experience with it to know.

1) Meaningless
2) I never excluded Moss, just not allowing you to single him out.
3) Pathetic

Why on Earth would I fall for your straw men and red herrings again?

Please prove beyond doubt that the 4 items you posted above are not true.

LOL, you made the statements and again tell ME to disprove you. You are a clown. You get in a hissy fit and spend 2 pages demanding I prove what you considered an assumption. Now you state things as if they are fact and refuse to offer any proof. Just sad Deus, I used to think more of you, but this is pitiful.

 

[Deus Irae]

1) Meaningless
2) I never excluded Moss, just not allowing you to single him out.
3) Pathetic

1.) A patently absurd position to take
2.) Ok, here's your chance:

a.) did Moss give enough effort/focus in that Chargers game that he would have been excluded from Belicick's remarks?

b.) did Moss give enough effort/focus in the Panthers game that he should be excluded from the remarks that have been made by people like Harrison, Brady, Carter, Rice, King, et al.?

3.) Yes, your arguments have indeed been pathetic.

LOL, you made the statements and again tell ME to disprove you. You are a clown. You get in a hissy fit and spend 2 pages demanding I prove what you considered an assumption. Now you state things as if they are fact and refuse to offer any proof. Just sad Deus, I used to think more of you, but this is pitiful.

Let me put this gently.....

This is a message board, not a criminal case in a court of law. There's no need to prove anything beyond a doubt. If you're going to demand such a standard on a message board, I'll put it to you to prove it, every time.

Now, if you wish to keep massaging Moss with your every post, you should feel free to do so. You and the apparently extreme minority of other people who saw no problem with Moss' performance on Sunday should keep on living in the world of rainbows and unicorns. The rest of us will try to muddle on in the real world.

And you calling me a clown, given your performance on this issue, is a rich, and joyous, cup of irony. "Beyond doubt"..... great stuff.