Brady appeal date set 6/23

[JDot]

It's not an 80's movie. It was actually just finished, but it has the (in this case WAAAAY) over the top style that a lot of the 80's action movies had.

Plus, it's got a Norse god, dinosaurs, Hitler and rampaging arcade games. It's basically cheese on top of cheese, with a side of cheese and a nice glass of liquid cheese to drink it down.

It hand me at "laser Unicorns"... Lol..

 

[The Gr8est]

So if this case goes to court and the discovery shows an orchestrated effort to damage the Pats through stings, lies, withholding of evidence etc., what are the options?

Would it be up to Kraft to sue the league at that point? Can anyone else do anything to get satisfaction from the league under those circumstances?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

VILMA!

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Why so damn far away?

Why so far away? The answer is one you should always assume with the Commissioner/NFL: what they believe will benefit them. What is fair to Brady/the player will not be considered. They will not consider anything other than what is best for them (up to what they perceive they can get away with).

As to why they perceive the later date as beneficial to them?? It's creepy to even try to think like them, however, my guess is they believe the longer they can delay it the better the chance Brady will cave. It's a lawyer's trick: any delay pressures and wears down the other party to give up, die, settle.
Of course any kind of warped thinking is possible with Goodell and his lops.

 

[XLIX]

So if this case goes to court and the discovery shows an orchestrated effort to damage the Pats through stings, lies, withholding of evidence etc., what are the options?

Would it be up to Kraft to sue the league at that point? Can anyone else do anything to get satisfaction from the league under those circumstances?

I know everyone hates the Patriots, but there's still a sliver of hope (and perhaps naïveté) that think maybe people hate the league office just a bit more.

So to address your scenario, if it were proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the league orchestrated this whole thing with a systematic series of deliberate lies, then I would there would be enough public outcry to punish those responsible and give the exonerated Patriots their stuff back.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

People are silly thinking Goodell is going to reduce the suspension. This is Goodell's biggest accomplishment; he is in so far now there is no way he does anything except grandstand and wax on about the integrity of the game. Perhaps you've missed the lengths he has gone to thus far to absolve him and the league of any misjudgement or wrongdoing? He also knows there is no guarantee Brady will win in court, and even Brady does win in court, Goodell is still popular with the fans for doing all he could.

It is my understanding, too, that whether the balls were actually tampered with has nothing to do with a potential court battle (a suspension challenge that is, not defamation.). That court battle has to do with jurisdiction, bias, procedures, technicalities, etc. So Goodell may not need to answer for the shoddy Wells report.

Only way Goodell regrets this decision is if Brady goes nuclear and his attorneys have something huge up their sleeves involving slander and/or corruption. Which they may have.

 

[TruthSeeker]

The Saints still served team penalties after bountygate player penalties were thrown out. The NFL will just hope that nobody notices.

But that was different IMO since there was some guilt. The evidence we now have shows that NOTHING HAPPENED either from a player level or a team level. That being said, the NFL is the master of inconsistency and arbitrariness and would allow the team penalty to stand regardless of the ruling in Brady's case.

I expect an unbiased arbitrator (if we ever get one) to rule rather definitively that not only is Tom innocent but that the evidence shows that there was no deflation of the footballs - I'm just not certain of the strength of this assertion (likely, highly likely, beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.)

The fascinating part of this will be the case for an NFL sting operation. When you consider factors such as:
- the decision to not notify the Patriots before the game of ball pressure concerns
- the statement at halftime by an NFL official that the NFL is going to get the Patriots
- the leak to Chris Mortensen of the incorrect PSI information along with the refusal of the NFL to correct this or allow the Patriots to correct this. The report says that this was not an much of an issue while many of us believes that this is a huge issue in terms of damaging the Patriots' reputation and convincing the masses that the Patriots are guilty when the actual evidence of PSI measurements strongly indicates innocence
- in general, the extreme bias of the Wells Report

- in particular in the Wells Report:
+ the October text string sequence after the Jets game which is discussed 4 times in the report. We now know specific texts that were not included in the report which totally rebut the reports conclusion of what the text sequence means. The report claims that they couldn't find these other texts - but a reporter claims to have found the missing texts with a 10-minute internet search. It strains credibility that the investigators did not have access to the full text sequence and then intentionally decided to use the specific texts used in order to bolster their guilt finding. This is a smoking gun in terms not only of bias but of a sting.
+ the decision to ignore Walt Andersen's memory of which gauge he used for the pre-game measurement of the Patriots footballs while accepting every other memory he had. Note that accepting Walt's recollection on this point shows that there was no deflation of footballs at (at least) a high confidence level and totally undermines the rest of the report findings.
+ the amazing inability of the investigators to find either the Patriots or Colts gauges - either one of which could be used to reasonably prove that Walt Andersen used the logo gauge for pre-game measurements.
+ the inability (refusal?) to use the actual report data of the intercepted ball measurements to, once again, likely prove that Walt Andersen used the logo gauge for pre-game measurements.
+ the report leaving out extremely significant context around the Patriots refusal to grant a 2nd interview while painting a very negative picture of the Patriots 5 (or was it 7) times in the report based on this "refusal to cooperate". The full context shows conclusively that the failure was on the Wells team to abide by their own rules and that the Patriots were blameless in this issue and perhaps should even be commended for protecting their employees from investigator abuse. The investigators broke their own rules and lied about this to the Patriots.
+ the investigators refusal to investigate the NFL's role in this despite this being part of the mandate
+ essentially ignoring all other rule breaking (such as the Colts measuring the intercepted football; this evidence ultimately helps to prove the footballs were not deflated)
+ ignoring the exploration into a motive by Tom Brady. (Aren't motives generally a critical piece of proving a crime - or has my 50+ years of reading/watching crime mysteries been wasted?) Best evidence is that neither Tom Brady nor Jimmy Garappolo can tell the difference between footballs within 1 PSI of each other in the ordinary use of the football. This is likely true of most everyone. And yet, the average deflation assuming worst case is well below 1 PSI. In other words, there is no motive to deflate footballs less than 1 PSI. How can this be ignored?

There are many other specific points of bias; these are just some of the more egregious.

- the NFL accepting the report conclusions uncritically despite the many flaws
- the unprecedented penalties for an equipment violation that is barely proven according to the report ("generally aware"?, "more likely than not"?) while having a history of practically ignoring similar pressurization issues (putting balls in front of heaters).

IMO, there is a strong case that the NFL conducted a sting operation when all the facts are considered. The NFL better be very careful about how this is handled. Personally, I don't ascribe that much malice to the NFL, but the evidence says (to me) that a sting was "more probable than not".

 

[Jlaff]

So if this case goes to court and the discovery shows an orchestrated effort to damage the Pats through stings, lies, withholding of evidence etc., what are the options?

Would it be up to Kraft to sue the league at that point? Can anyone else do anything to get satisfaction from the league under those circumstances?

Like most, I thought the team would be stuck in any event for failing to exhaust their options under the contract. But then, maybe discoverability would come into play if some more substantial evidence came out that the league was engaged in such an "orchestrated effort"? I know to us it's clear...

I dunno, I'm curious what some of the full-fledged lawyers think too.

 

[Tony2046]

Side note: anyone looking for a piece of '80's style movie cheese on steroids, to kill a half an hour or so, might want to check out Kung Fury. Here's a quick Wiki blurb:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fury

And here's Kung Fury, in case you're interested:

I am now worried about you Deus. What in the hell was that? Triceracop?

 

[Tony2046]

But that was different IMO since there was some guilt. The evidence we now have shows that NOTHING HAPPENED either from a player level or a team level. That being said, the NFL is the master of inconsistency and arbitrariness and would allow the team penalty to stand regardless of the ruling in Brady's case.

I expect an unbiased arbitrator (if we ever get one) to rule rather definitively that not only is Tom innocent but that the evidence shows that there was no deflation of the footballs - I'm just not certain of the strength of this assertion (likely, highly likely, beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.)

The fascinating part of this will be the case for an NFL sting operation. When you consider factors such as:
- the decision to not notify the Patriots before the game of ball pressure concerns
- the statement at halftime by an NFL official that the NFL is going to get the Patriots
- the leak to Chris Mortensen of the incorrect PSI information along with the refusal of the NFL to correct this or allow the Patriots to correct this. The report says that this was not an much of an issue while many of us believes that this is a huge issue in terms of damaging the Patriots' reputation and convincing the masses that the Patriots are guilty when the actual evidence of PSI measurements strongly indicates innocence
- in general, the extreme bias of the Wells Report

- in particular in the Wells Report:
+ the October text string sequence after the Jets game which is discussed 4 times in the report. We now know specific texts that were not included in the report which totally rebut the reports conclusion of what the text sequence means. The report claims that they couldn't find these other texts - but a reporter claims to have found the missing texts with a 10-minute internet search. It strains credibility that the investigators did not have access to the full text sequence and then intentionally decided to use the specific texts used in order to bolster their guilt finding. This is a smoking gun in terms not only of bias but of a sting.
+ the decision to ignore Walt Andersen's memory of which gauge he used for the pre-game measurement of the Patriots footballs while accepting every other memory he had. Note that accepting Walt's recollection on this point shows that there was no deflation of footballs at (at least) a high confidence level and totally undermines the rest of the report findings.
+ the amazing inability of the investigators to find either the Patriots or Colts gauges - either one of which could be used to reasonably prove that Walt Andersen used the logo gauge for pre-game measurements.
+ the inability (refusal?) to use the actual report data of the intercepted ball measurements to, once again, likely prove that Walt Andersen used the logo gauge for pre-game measurements.
+ the report leaving out extremely significant context around the Patriots refusal to grant a 2nd interview while painting a very negative picture of the Patriots 5 (or was it 7) times in the report based on this "refusal to cooperate". The full context shows conclusively that the failure was on the Wells team to abide by their own rules and that the Patriots were blameless in this issue and perhaps should even be commended for protecting their employees from investigator abuse. The investigators broke their own rules and lied about this to the Patriots.
+ the investigators refusal to investigate the NFL's role in this despite this being part of the mandate
+ essentially ignoring all other rule breaking (such as the Colts measuring the intercepted football; this evidence ultimately helps to prove the footballs were not deflated)
+ ignoring the exploration into a motive by Tom Brady. (Aren't motives generally a critical piece of proving a crime - or has my 50+ years of reading/watching crime mysteries been wasted?) Best evidence is that neither Tom Brady nor Jimmy Garappolo can tell the difference between footballs within 1 PSI of each other in the ordinary use of the football. This is likely true of most everyone. And yet, the average deflation assuming worst case is well below 1 PSI. In other words, there is no motive to deflate footballs less than 1 PSI. How can this be ignored?

There are many other specific points of bias; these are just some of the more egregious.

- the NFL accepting the report conclusions uncritically despite the many flaws
- the unprecedented penalties for an equipment violation that is barely proven according to the report ("generally aware"?, "more likely than not"?) while having a history of practically ignoring similar pressurization issues (putting balls in front of heaters).

IMO, there is a strong case that the NFL conducted a sting operation when all the facts are considered. The NFL better be very careful about how this is handled. Personally, I don't ascribe that much malice to the NFL, but the evidence says (to me) that a sting was "more probable than not".

Don't forget that someone from the NFL decided to destroy the evidence to begin with. They could have kept those footballs in question and set them aside for further tests or what ever but they did'nt. They instead re-inflate those footballs and put them back in the game. That to me is extremely suspicious. Why would you not keep those footballs as evidence? We would have never needed a Wells report. That looks like a Sting + a Setup operation. May not have been but it is either sheer ignorance or a set up. Either way it will not look good in court.

 

[Kontradiction]

Jesus, a random 80's movie plug...

..And it is not Big Trouble in Little China?

Ignore list..

:Goes to netflix:

That's a good knife. Goodbye, Mr. Burton.

 

[BelichickFan]

+ ignoring the exploration into a motive by Tom Brady. (Aren't motives generally a critical piece of proving a crime - or has my 50+ years of reading/watching crime mysteries been wasted?) Best evidence is that neither Tom Brady nor Jimmy Garappolo can tell the difference between footballs within 1 PSI of each other in the ordinary use of the football. This is likely true of most everyone. And yet, the average deflation assuming worst case is well below 1 PSI. In other words, there is no motive to deflate footballs less than 1 PSI. How can this be ignored?

To strengthen this "lack of motive" it seems very unlikely Brady would say "the balls are prepped exactly as I want them. Now you go and change them so I don't know how they'll be and I don't know if one ball will be the same as the next. And do it so quickly that you can do 12 balls in 95 seconds, less when you factor in the time that you're organizing what you're doing".

I just highly doubt Brady wanted someone messing with the balls after he'd prepped them how he wanted. Bad enough that the refs themselves sometimes did.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Abraham?

Bountygate was 4 players:

Vilma
Hargrove
Fujita
Smith

Abraham, Martin and John........Anybody here whose seen my old friends could easily mix up the names......

 

[Deus Irae]

I am now worried about you Deus. What in the hell was that? Triceracop?

Two words: Laser Raptor

 

[FCB02062]

Brady appeal will be heard, Goodell doesn't reduce suspension, Brady or his lawyer announces they're moving on and not pursuing the matter further...u heard it here first
Might I add I really hope I'm wrong...

 

[Calhoun44]

I hope the lawyers bring up how odd and suspicious it is that the league decided to measure and change the psi in a football at halftime in the AFCCG and they did not inform the coach/QB of the Patriots. Talk about messing with the integrity of the game, that amongst many other aspects of the b.s. boggles my mind. They either didn't care, were clueless or were trying influence the outcome of a game (actually probably all three).

 

[Calhoun44]

Brady appeal will be heard, Goodell doesn't reduce suspension, Brady or his lawyer announces they're moving on and not pursuing the matter further...u heard it here first
Might I add I really hope I'm wrong...

At this point, who knows...but I hope you are wrong. I don't see the downside in pursuing this. But, there are many things about this issue I am dumbfounded by, this would just be another one.

 

[ChesBay]

Why so far away? The answer is one you should always assume with the Commissioner/NFL: what they believe will benefit them. What is fair to Brady/the player will not be considered. They will not consider anything other than what is best for them (up to what they perceive they can get away with).

As to why they perceive the later date as beneficial to them?? It's creepy to even try to think like them, however, my guess is they believe the longer they can delay it the better the chance Brady will cave. It's a lawyer's trick: any delay pressures and wears down the other party to give up, die, settle.
Of course any kind of warped thinking is possible with Goodell and his lops.

While I concur that the League will do whatever benefits them, first and foremost, I think the June 23rd date is more indicative of giving themselves sufficient time to conduct meetings with their lawyers (not necessarily Wells) to go through the game theoretic outcomes based on potential actions they might take. And such a risk assessment process would surely take into account the three legal positions already stated by the NFLPA (already articulated in this thread). This will be a very interesting symmetry, should the League stand firm on their punishment (not a wise move, as others have already suggested). First the Patriots (and TB) were subjected to the "court of public opinion", which was shaped by the false information/media leaks that the League orchestrated with purpose and malice. But the League has shot their wad, so to speak, and now the tables will be turned. Now the NFLPA (and TB) can start shaping that very same court of public opinion...and the array of ammunition they'll have at their fingertips is formidable. Can the League really withstand such scrutiny? I doubt it because it raises the stakes beyond the ownership (and revenue making) level. Look at the players getting cut nowadays for questionable or downright bad conduct. The owners aren't even blinking before they take deliberate action. I suggest that a drawn out process will expose the NFL leadership for "what they are". And although Roger Goodell himself is the most vulnerable, the game theoretic outcomes go well beyond that.

 

[RunAmok]

If it comes down to losing power (say by having to name real arbiters for appeals in the future) or risk alienating owners who can make his lose his job...
I don't know Goodell, but I can think of 44 million reasons why I'd protect the job.

The NFLPA wants this to go to court as a way to get the unilateral, heavy-handed personal conduct policy that Goodell put in place after the Ray Rice fuster-cluck. He completely violated the CBA in doing this and now the union has the perfect case to take to court. It does not matter what Goodell does in the appeal, it's going to court.

The only way the NEP get anything back is if the court so completely obliterates the Wells Report and the way the NFL conducted themselves. The ruling would have to be so clear that the idiot press would be able to turn a bunch of simple statements into headlines. Such as "Judge Rules that NFL Conspired To Harm Tom Brady and Patriots". However, my guess is that any ruling would simply over-turn TBs penalties and the NFL would get the same blowback that it got for Bountygate and Bullygate - nothing.

 

[RunAmok]

Jesus, a random 80's movie plug...

..And it is not Big Trouble in Little China?

Ignore list..

:Goes to netflix:

Well that would explain the laser raptor.