Brady and Moss names mentioned in rap lyrics

[glm]

I've played along with just about any form of music with my guitar, including a drum machine. You just said that most rappers aren't musicians. YOU said that. I don't think there is any reason for me to argue with you.

I'm not arguing that they are musicians. I'm arguing with the fact that you think sampling is easy. And by what you just said it's clear that you haven't sampled. So maybe you shouldn't dismiss something as simple when you've never tried it.

 

[jays52]

I think we are trying to argue different points. Rap doesn't bring anything to the table in terms of music. All the "value" it has is derived from the lyrics. That's why I don't really consider rap to be music (even though, yes, I'll admit it is music). Genre's like Jazz derive all of the emotion, etc, from the actual music.

Here's a way to think about it. If a piece of music or song is good, it should be able to stand on its own, without lyrics. If you took away the lyrics from a rap song and just had the beat, it wouldn't be very interesting. That right there is the point. If you take a Billy Joel song and strip away the lyrics, the music will still be interesting. Obviously, with Jazz, everything is the music, there are no lyrics most of the time.

I think that is both fair and accurate. That said, the converse argument is true as well. If you were to take other forms of music with voice in them, and simply isolate the voice it would be a shadow of itself.

While I certainly know I can't tap a stick on a bucket and make a beat, I like to think that I have a pretty good ear for music. I love all of it. Wagner, Al Di Meola, Vai, Hendrix, Pearl Jam, Claypool, and yes, even melodic death metal. I only like the death metal because of the incredible instrumental play. If I could take the vocals out of each song, I would, and in the process enjoy the music much more. I also happen to really enjoy intelligent, well thought out rap. Do I think it is brilliant composure? Of course not, the beat is ancillary to the lyrics and delivery.

Maybe it's my lack of training, or my lack of any musical ability in the least, but I don't really put the genres on different levels. I just see them as different and understand that different types of music offer different complexities, different sounds, and different progressions.

 

[Ice Cold Bruschi]

And how can you say sampling isn't legit? have you ever heard any DJ Shadow? RJD2? Amon Tobin? Dangermouse? Sampling isn't just cutting and pasting, its using previous work to create new work and supplementing it with your own original material. No doubt it requires less of a gift than composing a symphony but the best composers in history were prodigies who had just been churning the stuff out since they were kids. There are kids today who can do it too its just that its not a popular form of music and that combined with the proliferation of music on the internet has led to less focus on a few talented well publicized individuals. Rant ended lol

 

[Patjew]

All I know is that the Beastie Boys sucked when they tried to sound like Reagan Youth (and played their own instruments - poorly) and started sounding great when they sampled like madmen on Paul's Boutique. I think their best stuff is a fusion of the two styles, but Paul's Boutique remains a seminal album.

 

[glm]

Where do you disagree with what I said, then?

I'm not disagreeing that most rappers aren't musicians, I'm saying it's pointless to bash a genre of music because it doesn't highligh something you're in love with.

How is saying that rappers aren't musicians anything related to guitar solo's in classical music?

I'm saying that bashing rappers because they aren't musicians is like bashing classical musicians because they don't play guitar solos.

It's pointless and stupid.

A better analogy would be saying that Rap sucks because it's lack of MUSIC.

That's an opinion where classical music not having guitar solos is a fact.

Also, what does the "difficulty" of sampling have to do with whether or not it is good or worthy music? The point is that these people aren't really creating their own music from scratch, they are taking existing music, that other people created, and sticking it together. They don't even try to reproduce it, they just use the same recording. I think it's disgusting

Sampling is basically the equivalent of creating a collage out of existing paitings... ie, BS.


Anyways, if you think sampling is difficult, try writing actual music. I'd love to see a "sampler" try to write a classical arrangement for 4 voices, let alone an arrangement for an entire orchestra.

.
Oh, and I would know, I attended Berklee College of Music. I do know what I'm talking about.

Alright, then I want you to make a piece of sampling, and I want you to post it on here so we can all hear it.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I don't think rap is worthless or anything, it can be enjoyable to listen to. I just don't really think rap when I want to listen to music. I consider rap auditory entertainment between prose and music. When I'm in the mood of listening to something other than music, I consider rap, recited prose, comedy, etc.

I just don't like it when people try to validate rap and argue that it's just as musical as Jazz or any other genre.

Also, the point about stripping away the lyrics certainly isn't perfect. Most lyrics do have a melody to it (which, obviously is extremely important to the song) that you need to take into consideration, but that melody is often worked into the instrumental music. When I say lyrics, I'm really just referring to the words. So I guess the better idea would be to take away the words, so you still have the melody (singing without words).

 

[Satchboogie3]

All I know is that the Beastie Boys sucked when they tried to sound like Reagan Youth (and played their own instruments - poorly) and started sounding great when they sampled like madmen on Paul's Boutique. I think their best stuff is a fusion of the two styles, but Paul's Boutique remains a seminal album.

I think that just shows that the "Beastie Boys" were pretty weak musicians. All they could do was sing music that was written for them. They are part of the Big Business of Music. They are a product, nothing more.

I don't see how that supports the argument that sampling is as valid as creating music from scratch.

Finally, I'm not saying that Rap sucks or that Rappers suck. I'm saying that they aren't musicians (or are very very basic musicians). That's not a knock on them, just a fact. They are great poets.

I'm also not saying that music created from samples or pop music like the Beastie Boys is total crap and not worth listening to, I'm arguing that they aren't as talented or skilled as musicians from other genre's, such as jazz and classical. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, it just means it's lesser music. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Toyota. A Toyota isn't a bad car, it just isn't as sophisticated or pleasing to drive as the Ferrari. Same thing as rap and pop music compared to other genre's.

 

[feldspar]

I'm not arguing that they are musicians. I'm arguing with the fact that you think sampling is easy. And by what you just said it's clear that you haven't sampled. So maybe you shouldn't dismiss something as simple when you've never tried it.

Have YOU ever "sampled?"

I know what it is, and I know it's worlds easier than creating something original by the seat of your pants...and worlds less interesting. You can call it sampling if you want, but you could easily call it stealing. Take "Super-Freak" and call it "You Can't Touch This." Take "Under Pressure" and call it "Ice Ice Baby." Rap over it like a sucka then call it your own.

 

[glm]

Have YOU ever "sampled?"

I know what it is, and I know it's worlds easier than creating something original by the seat of your pants...and worlds less interesting. You can call it sampling if you want, but you could easily call it stealing. Take "Super-Freak" and call it "You Can't Touch This." Take "Under Pressure" and call it "Ice Ice Baby." Rap over it like a sucka then call it your own.

Sampling is rarely carbon copied, and within hip hop itself, such practices are frowned upon. "Chopping" is a skill that takes understand of time signature as well as arrangement.

Most producers will play their own instruments in order to sample and re-arrange them effectively. A producer who doesn't understand musical theory is no worse than a Guitarist who can't rig their own equipment.

 

[Satchboogie3]

And how can you say sampling isn't legit? have you ever heard any DJ Shadow? RJD2? Amon Tobin? Dangermouse? Sampling isn't just cutting and pasting, its using previous work to create new work and supplementing it with your own original material. No doubt it requires less of a gift than composing a symphony but the best composers in history were prodigies who had just been churning the stuff out since they were kids. There are kids today who can do it too its just that its not a popular form of music and that combined with the proliferation of music on the internet has led to less focus on a few talented well publicized individuals. Rant ended lol

The basis of sampling is still far more easy than writing actual music. When you want to write actual music, you have to create your own ideas from scratch. You don't get to just pick stuff that is already made that you like. Part of the whole struggle of composing is to come up with your own cool ideas, based on your influences, and make it something your own, that doesn't tread on the influences. It's not easy.

On top of that, you then have to go out and record your ideas, get all the background, overlapping, looping, and electronic stuff down. You have to get all the other instruments recorded, etc. ALL of that is bypassed with sampling.

 

[Deus Irae]

Cue the idiot white people who lump the good rap with the bad, never listened to good rap or hip hop in their lives, blame the artists for their idiot fans (ever been to any sporting event recently?), or never bothered to listen to the lyrics to the songs (thank you Jay-Z).

Cue racist who act like white people don't know anything about hip hop and all black people are well read connoisseurs on the subject, hip hop these days sucks.

Don't you understand? There's good rap and bad rap, but nobody can judge which is which because it's subjective. This is true even though apple strudel is positive that:

1.) There is good rap and bad rap, even though there's really not good rap and bad rap.

2.) The only people who don't like rap are white people have never listened to good rap or hip hop in their lives. (again, even though there is no such thing as good/bad because it's all subjective, but there is such a thing because apple strudel tells us there is).

3.) People who don't like rap have never listened to the words. In over 20 years of rap music, they've somehow avoided every single word used, be it NWA, Tone Loc, Tupac or some dude from the local park. And they need to know the lyrics to understand if the music is good or bad, because you can't really like the music unless you do, even though liking or disliking it is subjective and there is(n't) a good or bad rap/hip hop music. Hell, those racist bastards probably covered their ears and went "La La La" just to avoid hearing such brutal titles as Funky Cold Medina and Christmas in Hollis.

I hope this primer has helped clear up any confusion you might have had.

 

[Patjew]

I think that just shows that the "Beastie Boys" were pretty weak musicians. All they could do was sing music that was written for them. They are part of the Big Business of Music. They are a product, nothing more.

I don't see how that supports the argument that sampling is as valid as creating music from scratch.

Finally, I'm not saying that Rap sucks or that Rappers suck. I'm saying that they aren't musicians (or are very very basic musicians). That's not a knock on them, just a fact. They are great poets.

I'm also not saying that music created from samples or pop music like the Beastie Boys is total crap and not worth listening to, I'm arguing that they aren't as talented or skilled as musicians from other genre's, such as jazz and classical. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, it just means it's lesser music. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Toyota. A Toyota isn't a bad car, it just isn't as sophisticated or pleasing to drive as the Ferrari. Same thing as rap and pop music compared to other genre's.

My argument is simply this: the Beastie Boys are effing awesome.

 

[feldspar]

Sampling is rarely carbon copied, and within hip hop itself, such practices are frowned upon. "Chopping" is a skill that takes understand of time signature as well as arrangement.

Most producers will play their own instruments in order to sample and re-arrange them effectively. A producer who doesn't understand musical theory is no worse than a Guitarist who can't rig their own equipment.

So who do they hire to do all this stealing...er, I mean sampling? The producer? Why exactly isn't there a band that can create their own song? The whole process is way beneath the processes of other genres, which is the exact point. Chop this from somebody, chop that from somebody else...put it all together and call it your own. That almost borders on dishonesty. All musicians take this or that from other musicians, but not so directly or pathetically.

 

[feldspar]

My argument is simply this: the Beastie Boys are effing awesome.

I love "Check Your Head." Lotsa kick ass original stuff going on there. 3 guys...seen them live, too, with all of them creating every sound. No bells and whistles a lot of times; they can play instruments. They weren't exactly fooling around. Ment business, actually. Fun stuff, and very entertaining.

 

[glm]

So who do they hire to do all this stealing...er, I mean sampling? The producer? Why exactly isn't there a band that can create their own song? The whole process is way beneath the processes of other genres, which is the exact point. Chop this from somebody, chop that from somebody else...put it all together and call it your own. That almost borders on dishonesty. All musicians take this or that from other musicians, but not so directly or pathetically.

Sample a piece. Post it on here.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Don't you understand? There's good rap and bad rap, but nobody can judge which is which because it's subjective. This is true even though apple strudel is positive that:

1.) There is good rap and bad rap, even though there's really not good rap and bad rap.

2.) The only people who don't like rap are white people have never listened to good rap or hip hop in their lives. (again, even though there is no such thing as good/bad because it's all subjective, but there is such a thing because apple strudel tells us there is).

3.) People who don't like rap have never listened to the words. In over 20 years of rap music, they've somehow avoided every single word used, be it NWA, Tone Loc, Tupac or some dude from the local park. And they need to know the lyrics to understand if the music is good or bad, because you can't really like the music unless you do, even though liking or disliking it is subjective and there is(n't) a good or bad rap/hip hop music. Hell, those racist bastards probably covered their ears and went "La La La" just to avoid hearing such brutal titles as Funky Cold Medina and Christmas in Hollis.

I hope this primer has helped clear up any confusion you might have had.

Words aren't music, thus they can't be used to argue that people aren't "listening".

I think the biggest reason why I don't like pop and rap as music is because they don't really care to explore the world of music. Great musicians explore music, whether it be by just fusing different genre's or writing in many different styles. You rarely get that in pop and rap.

Another thing often void is the interaction between band members. Great musicians are always listening to the other players and focus on making the band sound better. When they improvise, it's them exploring music through themselves, but also interacting with the band to make the perfect mood. It's like listening to an unspoken conversation. It's amazing. And it doesn't exist in pop and rap.

 

[Patjew]

I love "Check Your Head." Lotsa kick ass original stuff going on there. 3 guys...seen them live, too, with all of them creating every sound. No bells and whistles a lot of times; they can play instruments. They weren't exactly fooling around. Ment business, actually. Fun stuff, and very entertaining.

I saw them in 1995 and I'm so glad I did.

 

[Patjew]

Words aren't music, thus they can't be used to argue that people aren't "listening".

I think the biggest reason why I don't like pop and rap as music is because they don't really care to explore the world of music. Great musicians explore music, whether it be by just fusing different genre's or writing in many different styles. You rarely get that in pop and rap.

Another thing often void is the interaction between band members. Great musicians are always listening to the other players and focus on making the band sound better. When they improvise, it's them exploring music through themselves, but also interacting with the band to make the perfect mood. It's like listening to an unspoken conversation. It's amazing. And it doesn't exist in pop and rap.

And that being said, I hate Paul Simon.

 

[feldspar]

Sample a piece. Post it on here.

Give me the equipment, and I just might.

What kind of challenge is this, anyway? I've put together a piece or two in my day. Count on that. Didn't have to steal or sample anything from anybody.

 

[feldspar]

Words aren't music, thus they can't be used to argue that people aren't "listening".

I think the biggest reason why I don't like pop and rap as music is because they don't really care to explore the world of music. Great musicians explore music, whether it be by just fusing different genre's or writing in many different styles. You rarely get that in pop and rap.

Another thing often void is the interaction between band members. Great musicians are always listening to the other players and focus on making the band sound better. When they improvise, it's them exploring music through themselves, but also interacting with the band to make the perfect mood. It's like listening to an unspoken conversation. It's amazing. And it doesn't exist in pop and rap.

Probably my favorite band of all time? The Grateful Dead...for the reasons you've just described. When they hit, you couldn't create a better album than what they've done from the seat of their pants. Improvisation and exploring music is where it's at. THAT is the thing that takes the most talent as well as the most courage. Say 1,2,3, go, and then see what happens. Total musical conversation.