Bigger DB's?

[unoriginal]

Of course Hobbs is going to get better. He's a second year player, and he played this year with debilitating injuries. Samuel now is just coming into his prime going into his fifth season.

Even if the Pats take a corner with their 24th pick, he's not going to start over Hobbs. If someone really blows, like Duane Starks Hobbs' rookie year, he'll get into the mix by midyear. Otherwise he'll be the nickel, like Cromartie was for San Diego. Corners don't just get plugged in and play at a high level. Safeties, maybe, but corners hit their stride after a few seasons, and Hobbs is just starting to hit his.

He is a young, ****y corner with incredible measurables in every category except height. Despite playing with a fractured wrist he demonstrated ridiculously active hands; you won't find a better corner in the NFL at taking the ball away from the wide receiver. He's a tough son of a ***** and a live hitter, and he's not a primmadonna, taking a midseason "demotion" silently in stride. With all this going for him, he's height is not going to be enough to stop him from being a starting corner for this team. He is not a Ray Mickens.

 

[ATippett56]

You see, the 109 yards is a pretty good figure considering they werent thrown to that often.

They weren't thrown to that often because Hobbs and Samuel provided the coverage necessary for Peyton Manning to look to other options. Unfortunately, the Patriots do not have a linebacker currently on the roster that is able to cover tight end Dallas Clark in single coverage.

 

[unoriginal]

I dont think he will get any better, not because of his understanding of the game, but merely he is far outsied in the NFL of today. Thats how I see it. However, as a nickel back, he can hold his own. Just not at the starting corner position.

Quit exaggerating. He is not far outsized in today's NFL. He is an inch shorter than Samuel and Wilson, two inches shorter than Gay and Law. He is the same size as Antoine Winfield. His height is in no way debilitating, especially considering his vertical leap and his outstanding hand-eye coordination.

There were many instances, this season, where other players were inserted into th starting corner position, Mickens,. Scott, etc...and that was AFTER Hobbs came back from his injury. I take that as being a case that the DC, or BB even , was not fully satisfied with Hobbs on the corner. When that occurred, Hobbs was being used as the nickel back.

Those are all VETERAN corners. You won't find a corner back in this league more veteran than Ray Mickens. And why do you take Hobbs coming in as a nickel as a token of dissatisfaction with Hobbs, but don't take the vast preponderance of starts as evidence of competence, even quality? Chad Scott is your prototypical corner. He started twice over Hobbs.

He is easily faked out, and easily beaten. He gets back and makes it look good for those not in tune with the overall aspect of playing the corner...but his reactions in man to man situations is very weak, and I dont anticipate any improvement. Tie that in with his height disadvantage, even though he has a big vertical leap (that gets him into Pass interference situations, however) he is far too much of a liability on the corner. IMO, he wont be there next season

You're right, he does get back and make it look good. That's called recovery. Good cornerbacks are able to erase their mistakes like that. As time goes on Hobbs will make less and less of those mistakes, and he'll jump the ball more and more, just like Asante Samuel has.

Straight up man to man makes even the best corners look silly some of the time; it is proximate coverage, resorted to only because bodies are needed elsewhere. Hobbs has never embarrassed himself in coverage like Scott or Poteat or Starks or Earthwind Moreland, he's been out there healthy and not, and even in games like Indy when he's stuck to an All-Pro wide receiver, he's never exploited, like our linebackers were by Dallas Clark and Fletcher.

I can't see any reason not to be up on Hobbs. He has, is, and will be getting it done to the satisfaction of Collier, Pees, and Belichick. If there is one person out of our starting four who I am confident will be penciled in next year, its Hobbs. Harrison is old, Wilson is more likely to be upgraded, and Samuel could be gone. I can't see the Pats making a move in free agency, apart from tagging Asante, and they don't pick high enough to pick an absolute stud at the corner position. Hobbs will be there next year, and he'll be a positive. Who do we have that's better? Wilson??

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Okay, to the fans of converting a receiver into a full-time DB - we got lucky with Troy. The more I see that guy the more I admire him. I can not believe we thought about cutting him to save a lousy million bucks.... but evidently Troy's deal had to be pushed through by the Krafts themselves, if you believe what the media had to say last year. Troy just keeps doing everything you ask him to then about 10 times more. He turned the tide in the Chargers game, and continues to fill in any where and any time asked.

But enough Troy Brown love for now. The point is, most receivers would make lousy corners. Their ball skills, obviously, are going to be more evolved than your standard corner, and thats where it ends. Who at the combine gives you a scouting report on how well your receiver backpeddles? How about his instincts, and how well his hips swivel when a receiver goes into his break? Come on guys. Fast doesn't cut it. Good hands don't cut it. The object of having a cornerback is not to produce interceptions. If it were, every corner in the league would be a dismal failure. The object is to have receivers covered, and have throws batted down, not made because the man is not open, or intercepted, when a corner is sure about what he is seeing.

Coverage skills are not the same thing as ball skills.

Carry on,

PFnV

 

[ATippett56]

Exactly, and here is where Hobbs fails. His coverage skills are very weak. And, when he does recover, it is too late, as we have seen, and he is often called for pass interference.

By inference, are you placing the blame on the Patriots loss to the Indianapolis Colts squarely on the shoulders of Ellis Hobbs?

 

[SoonerPatriot]

That depends on which side they lined up on, of course.

Hobbs didnt have much coverage on either of them...

But,how could they have much yardage when Dallas Clark was the main target for Manning, along with a few receptions by Moorehead and others.

You see, the 109 yards is a pretty good figure considering they werent thrown to that often.

In fact, OTHER receivers accounted for 18 of the 27 completions by Manning, for another 281 yards. Is it possible that Hobbs may have been the cover guy on any of those? My guess is, probably YES.

Hobbs, according to the official NFL gmebook for the game, had only TWO tackles and only ONE pass defended.


So, you see, stats like that can be made to look like whatever you wnt them to look like....until the entire picture is shown.

Nice try though.

They weren't thrown to because they were covered, Einstein. Nice try though.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

By inference, are you placing the blame on the Patriots loss to the Indianapolis Colts squarely on the shoulders of Ellis Hobbs?

Or is it McDaniels...or is it BB...or is it...Hobbs. I can't keep track of who NEM is blaming this week.

Incidentally, NEM basically used about 7,000 posts (at least) to rip Charlie Weis for 3 or 4 years.

Weis, the guy who designed and executed offensive game plans for 3 SB winning teams.

Weis, the guy Brady himself credits for his development.

Weis, the guy who has a $21 million buyout clause at Notre Dame.

In the real world, Charlie Weis is a well thought of former NFL assistant and current college head coach. In NEM's world, he's an idiot who "just can't do anything right."

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Not by Hobbs. Hobbs even blew coverages on Moorehead, too.

YOu have got to be kidding with that comment. Un believable. Is that the best you can do.

Heres some play by play, right from the NFL gamebook.

And, there is alot more, like this, from earlier in the game in which Hobbs was beaten.

Heres the play by play of the winning drive...

THE WINNING DRIVE BY THE COLTS



1-10-IND20 (2:17) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short left to R.Wayne ran ob at IND 31 for 11 yards.
(HOBBS ON THE COVER)

1-10-IND31 (2:12) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete short middle to B.Fletcher (E.Alexander).

2-10-IND31 (2:08) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass deep left to B.Fletcher ran ob at NE 37 for 32 yards.
(AGAIN, HOBSS WAS THE COVER MAN)








-10-NE37 (2:01) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short middle to R.Wayne to NE 23 for 14 yards (C.Scott, J.Sanders).
PENALTY on NE-T.Banta-Cain, Roughing the Passer, 12 yards, enforced at NE 23.

(On this play, Wayne was on the left side, covered by Hobbs, but when Wayne slanted inside, Hobbs was behind the receiver and Scott (Nickel) and Sanders had to make the stop. Hobbs was badly beaten inside.)

1-10-NE11 (1:53) J.Addai right tackle to NE 6 for 5 yards (M.Wright, M.Vrabel).

2-5-NE6 (1:10) J.Addai up the middle to NE 3 for 3 yards (V.Wilfork).

3-2-NE3 (1:02) J.Addai up the middle for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Also, you mentioned that Harrison was held down...thats true, but he was, for the most part, covered by Samuel, all day long.

On the Samuel interception to the right side, Harrison was the intended receiver.

2-7-IND31 (9:34) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short right intended for M.Harrison INTERCEPTED by A.Samuel at IND 39. A.Samuel for 39 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

They didnt throw to Harrison as often as they normally had done all season long because they knew that the weak corner was Hobbs, on the other side.

But, do me a favor, dont let these documented facts get in your way of saying that Hobbs did a great job.

NEM. Don't waste your breath. At your age, that's a consideration. Also, Hobbs will be a starting corner for the Patriots next season. Period. You can piss and moan all you want to about Hobbs, but it won't change that fact.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

I see, so as usual, the documented game book drive chart doesnt mean anything to you. Figures.

You see, once I decide to get the documented facts, which I dont take the time to do, too often, and that is my fault...but when I do, as I just did, you cant debate them, so you make it personal again.

For the most part, Hobbs was the main culprit in the final drive by Manning. Were there others at fault? Sure, but they picked on Hobbs and he didnt let the Colts down...Manning and the other receivers,not even Harrison, ate Hobbs up alive.

The proof is there for you to see it, but I doubt that you really want to se e anything that substantiates what I have said. Have a nice night.

I see you picked 3 or 4 plays out of dozens. I see you are incapable of putting them into context. I see you being very, very wrong about who is starting at CB for the Patriots next fall.

I see enough, NEM, to know you don't know what you're talking about to the 19,000th power (roughly the number of posts you have here.).

 

[SoonerPatriot]

So, you have a crystal ball, right?

I think I will save this post for next season.

Nope. The difference is, you think you have a crystal ball. But it's really the glaucoma.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Oh, I have ALL the plays, for the entire game, and there are many more. but for openers, why not start with the drive that cost us the game. What say you about that series in which Hobbs was the most guilty party?

And, I dont know what I am talking about? Debunk that final drive and show me where Hobbs wasnt the main culprit, go ahead, show me.

And, for the record, and I amproud to say this, I will Always know more about this game than you ever will....from experience, and from common sense, and commonknowledge.... so when yuo say I dont now what I am talking about, guess again pal, because I probably have forgotten more than you will EVER know, or understand. There's a lot more to this game than just numbers.

I know this. I know that. I have the experience. I gave my sweat and blood to this team...Yada Yada Yada.

That's sweet.

That's nice.

You still don't know what you're talking about uncle Fester.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Here's a few more for you. Want some more? Seeing as you asked.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1-10-IND20 (7:24) P.Manning pass short right to M.Harrison ran ob at IND 28 for 8 yards.


1-10-IND36 (6:30) P.Manning pass incomplete short right to M.Harrison (A.Samuel).



2-10-IND36 (6:23) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short left to R.Wayne to IND 49 for 13 yards (A.Hawkins, J.Sanders).
(This was Hobbs Cover, that he blew so the safeties had to make the stop) (HOBBS GIVES UP FIRST DOWN)


2-7-NE48 (5:11) P.Manning pass incomplete deep right to M.Harrison.


1-10-IND43 (1:41) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass short left to A.Moorehead pushed ob at NE 47 for 10 yards (E.Hobbs) (HOBBS GIVES UP FIRST DOWN)



2-8-IND26 (14:29) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short right to M.Harrison ran ob at IND 33 for 7 yards (A.Samuel).

2-8-IND49 (12:22) P.Manning pass short right to M.Harrison ran ob at NE 38 for 13 yards. (Samuel on the coverage)

2-5-NE33 (11:20) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete short middle to R.Wayne (A.Samuel).


2-6-NE17 (9:49) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short middle to A.Moorehead to NE 9 for 8 yards (E.Hobbs).(HOBBS GIVES UP FIRST DOWN)

2-7-NE19 (4:12) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete deep left to R.Wayne.
PENALTY on NE-E.Hobbs, Defensive Pass Interference, 18 yards, enforced at NE 19 - No Play.


Also,notice that Samuel was the cover guy for Harrison all day long, not Hobbs, as you suggested to be the reason that Harrison had an off day.

(((((YAWN)))) What were we talking about?

Hey NEM, they're having a contest....

http://www.depend.com/

 

[BelichickFan]

No-one cares what NEM says. Clearly Breer doesn't :

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?p=941

"For all the hoopla over Samuel, and he played an outstanding game on Harrison (though he did misjudge what could’ve been a big deep ball in the second quarter), Hobbs was his equal on the other side. He consistently stuck with Wayne and made two plays that stand up as among the best the Patriots have had in the secondary all year long. There was a play over the middle in the third quarter, where Wayne shot across the middle, Hobbs stuck with him and reached around the receiver to bat the ball down. And the real big one came to prevent a touchdown — Wayne ran a post and Hobbs kept with him, then made an impossible play on the ball, leaping around Wayne to knock the ball away. It’s worth noting that Wayne made most of his plays out of the slot, away from Hobbs. And it’s worth emphasizing that if Samuel is gone, Hobbs is more than capable of becoming the team’s top corner."

Not that was he says HAS to be right but I'd put my money on him over NEM - not to mention that my own eyes agree with Breer.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

No-one cares what NEM says. Clearly Breer doesn't :

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?p=941

"For all the hoopla over Samuel, and he played an outstanding game on Harrison (though he did misjudge what could’ve been a big deep ball in the second quarter), Hobbs was his equal on the other side. He consistently stuck with Wayne and made two plays that stand up as among the best the Patriots have had in the secondary all year long. There was a play over the middle in the third quarter, where Wayne shot across the middle, Hobbs stuck with him and reached around the receiver to bat the ball down. And the real big one came to prevent a touchdown — Wayne ran a post and Hobbs kept with him, then made an impossible play on the ball, leaping around Wayne to knock the ball away. It’s worth noting that Wayne made most of his plays out of the slot, away from Hobbs. And it’s worth emphasizing that if Samuel is gone, Hobbs is more than capable of becoming the team’s top corner."

Not that was he says HAS to be right but I'd put my money on him over NEM - not to mention that my own eyes agree with Breer.

I remember the play on Wayne's post well. Hobbs made some tremendous strides this year. He should be even better next, his second as a STARTER. A true example of the BB/Pioli ability to pluck sound players from the 3rd-7th rounds if there ever was one.

 

[Fantasic4x50x54x59x55]

Hobbs is fine, Asante is Fine IMO..

The fact is they are undersized and get beat up on because of it..which is explains our buttload of injuries to our DB's every season. Especially when you lose an enforcer like Harrison frequently.. Big Physical Guys can wear them out easy...So by the 3rd 4th Qtr.. we get sloppy back there.

 

[Fantasic4x50x54x59x55]

But to Me, CB isnt a position Belichick values enough to waste early picks or FA money on. Looks like he builds his D off of the front seven...if our D-line gets enough push to alarm a QB he will be off on his throw and allow our small athletic DB's to squeeze in tight spots and make a play.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Not by Hobbs. Hobbs even blew coverages on Moorehead, too.

YOu have got to be kidding with that comment. Un believable. Is that the best you can do.

Heres some play by play, right from the NFL gamebook.

And, there is alot more, like this, from earlier in the game in which Hobbs was beaten.

Heres the play by play of the winning drive...

THE WINNING DRIVE BY THE COLTS



1-10-IND20 (2:17) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short left to R.Wayne ran ob at IND 31 for 11 yards.
(HOBBS ON THE COVER)

1-10-IND31 (2:12) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete short middle to B.Fletcher (E.Alexander).

2-10-IND31 (2:08) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass deep left to B.Fletcher ran ob at NE 37 for 32 yards.
(AGAIN, HOBSS WAS THE COVER MAN)








-10-NE37 (2:01) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short middle to R.Wayne to NE 23 for 14 yards (C.Scott, J.Sanders).
PENALTY on NE-T.Banta-Cain, Roughing the Passer, 12 yards, enforced at NE 23.

(On this play, Wayne was on the left side, covered by Hobbs, but when Wayne slanted inside, Hobbs was behind the receiver and Scott (Nickel) and Sanders had to make the stop. Hobbs was badly beaten inside.)

1-10-NE11 (1:53) J.Addai right tackle to NE 6 for 5 yards (M.Wright, M.Vrabel).

2-5-NE6 (1:10) J.Addai up the middle to NE 3 for 3 yards (V.Wilfork).

3-2-NE3 (1:02) J.Addai up the middle for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Also, you mentioned that Harrison was held down...thats true, but he was, for the most part, covered by Samuel, all day long.

On the Samuel interception to the right side, Harrison was the intended receiver.

2-7-IND31 (9:34) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short right intended for M.Harrison INTERCEPTED by A.Samuel at IND 39. A.Samuel for 39 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

They didnt throw to Harrison as often as they normally had done all season long because they knew that the weak corner was Hobbs, on the other side.

But, do me a favor, dont let these documented facts get in your way of saying that Hobbs did a great job.

NEMan Einstein strikes again with his manufactured "facts." Here's the "undoctored" NFL.com play-by-play for that drive:
http://www.superbowl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20070121_NE@IND

Indianapolis Colts at 02:17
1-10-IND20 (2:17) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short left to R.Wayne ran ob at IND 31 for 11 yards.
1-10-IND31 (2:12) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete short middle to B.Fletcher (E.Alexander).
2-10-IND31 (2:08) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass deep left to B.Fletcher ran ob at NE 37 for 32 yards.
1-10-NE37 (2:01) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass short middle to R.Wayne to NE 23 for 14 yards (C.Scott, J.Sanders).
PENALTY on NE-T.Banta-Cain, Roughing the Passer, 12 yards, enforced at NE 23.
1-10-NE11 (1:53) J.Addai right tackle to NE 6 for 5 yards (M.Wright, M.Vrabel).
2-5-NE6 (1:10) J.Addai up the middle to NE 3 for 3 yards (V.Wilfork).
3-2-NE3 (1:02) J.Addai up the middle for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
A.Vinatieri extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Snow, Holder-H.Smith.
NE 34 IND 38, Plays: 7 Yards: 80 Possession: 1:17.

You make the claim that Hobbs was in coverage on specific plays and was the party giving up the yardage; well prove it NEM, don't just doctor the record and call it "fact." You see, other people can check the record for themselves, given your typical willingness to manufacture facts to support your fiction, it becomes an automatic to doubt you, justifiably in this case - again.

 

[dhamz]

2-10-IND31 (2:08) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass deep left to B.Fletcher ran ob at NE 37 for 32 yards.
(AGAIN, HOBSS WAS THE COVER MAN)

Alexander was in coverage on this play. It has only been talked about 1000 times this past week - Peyton Manning has even talked about Fletcher telling him in the huddle that if they covered him with 52 they should run that route.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

No-one cares what NEM says. Clearly Breer doesn't :

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/patriots/?p=941

"For all the hoopla over Samuel, and he played an outstanding game on Harrison (though he did misjudge what could’ve been a big deep ball in the second quarter), Hobbs was his equal on the other side. He consistently stuck with Wayne and made two plays that stand up as among the best the Patriots have had in the secondary all year long. There was a play over the middle in the third quarter, where Wayne shot across the middle, Hobbs stuck with him and reached around the receiver to bat the ball down. And the real big one came to prevent a touchdown — Wayne ran a post and Hobbs kept with him, then made an impossible play on the ball, leaping around Wayne to knock the ball away. It’s worth noting that Wayne made most of his plays out of the slot, away from Hobbs. And it’s worth emphasizing that if Samuel is gone, Hobbs is more than capable of becoming the team’s top corner."

Not that was he says HAS to be right but I'd put my money on him over NEM - not to mention that my own eyes agree with Breer.

Belichick said on WEEI a few weeks ago "Ellis Hobbs is good for the NE Patriots". And that's after playing just his second season, and first full one, with his wrist in a cast the entire time. Potentially his best play on Sunday was negated by a phantom PI call to boot. Add to that his versatility (he was an absolute stud in the return game once BB said to hell with the cast) and I think regardless of what NEM chooses to believe Ellis III will be around as a starting corner for some time to come. Ellis is a little pit bull, and you know what they say - it's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog. Wish I could say the same for Asante, but he marches to a slightly different drummer.

 

[Water Boy]

And, exactly what are those "ups" compared to any "downs"he might have?

You opened the door, so please enlilghten us as to those "ups"...

I was refering to his 42-inch vertical leap, NEM. "ups" is slang for ability to jump.