Bigger DB's?

[shirtsleeve]

Ok, I've come home and have been sampling some of my own product, straight from the keg, so now Im gonna really stir the shyte pot.

We need to get bigger, taller and faster at the DB positions. This has been a recurring theme of mine since I joined this forum a year and a half ago. In fact, it was the subject of my first post. Our DB's read like the manifest of a MASH unit. These guys are constantly injured. The reason for this is simple. The WR's and TE's are much bigger over the last few years than they ever used to be. And our defensive backs aren't. With the exception of Asante, name one day 1 starting DB who has played an entire season without serious time missing injury over the past 3 seasons. Its simple physics. When you continuously give up 3+" and 30+#, something is going to give. I think we can address the issue with the draft re:the safety position, but CB may require a different track.

Since Troy has broken the ground as dual duty DB, Perhaps the team could groom one of the bigger, faster WR's in a similar role? I've said before that almost every team has that tall fast WR who just runs go patterns and tries to outjump and out run the DB. Lets train Gaffney, Reche, or CJ, if he is slow to develop as a legit #1 WR, to play DB. Let him match up against such WR's in such games that feature the go pattern to the "tall" guy.

Thoughts?

 

[unoriginal]

We need to get bigger, taller and faster at the DB positions.

Us and every other NFL team.

Since Troy has broken the ground as dual duty DB, Perhaps the team could groom one of the bigger, faster WR's in a similar role? I've said before that almost every team has that tall fast WR who just runs go patterns and tries to outjump and out run the DB. Lets train Gaffney, Reche, or CJ, if he is slow to develop as a legit #1 WR, to play DB. Let him match up against such WR's in such games that feature the go pattern to the "tall" guy.

The joking way to think of the WR/CB relationship is to say "If that CB had hands, he'd be playing WR."

The correct way to think of the WR/CB relationship is to say "If that WR had agility, he'd be playing CB."

Troy Brown can play cornerback because he's small, agile, smart, and has lots of experience with routes and the running of them. Bam Childress can play cornerback because he's even smaller and more agile than Troy Brown. Reche Caldwell cannot play cornerback. He has straight-line glide speed. It takes a whole other level of quickness and sudden-ness to go from making a sharp 90 degree cut when you know its coming 10 yards ahead of time, to making a sharp 180 degree cut and closing five yards because the receiver just turned his hips towards you and squatted.

Big corners are rare, and when you see them, they tend to weigh about the same as the small corners anyways. Lenny Walls is the tallest functional cornerback in the NFL these days at 6'4", and he weighs the same as Ellis Hobbs. If he weighed any more, he wouldn't be able to cut fast enough. Unsurprisingly he gets injured all the time. The best corner in the NFL, Champ Bailey, is a full 6' tall. He also weighs the same as Ellis Hobbs and Lenny Walls. He's also played the majority of the year with his shoulder in varying levels of braces, wraps, and casts, tweaked his ankle at the beginning of November, and had hamstring trouble last year. Shawn Springs is one of the more muscular corners you'll see at about 6' 200 lbs, and he fights through injuries - and misses time - every year. He broke his shoulder blade this year and went to IR.

Incidentally, Antoine Winfield, one of the best run-defending corners in the NFL, punches in at 5'9" 180. He's also pretty clean regarding injurie history. He's a freak, obviously, but it goes to show that bigger doesn't mean healthier.

Because of the no-contact "emphasis," defensive backs need to be the football equivalent of greyhounds; small, light, fast. You find a tall man with the hips and smarts to overcome a higher center of gravity, you'll still have to take off body muscle so the guy can fly around out there. He'll get hurt just as easily - perhaps more easily - than the small guy.

If you want corner that can match up against tall wide receivers in the red zone, we've already got him on the roster, his name is Chad Scott. Oh, you wanted somebody who could cover them all game? Call Shanahan. See what the price is for Bailey.

 

[DarrylS]

Troy Brown is a true exception, read somewhere where he played 250 snaps at DB in the '05 season.. with all of his other duties that is a lot of snaps for a player his age.

Regarding size isn't James Sander, the savior of the Colts D, only about 5'10", there is a tendency to become enamored with size and am not sure that is the best criteria for judgeing DB's.

 

[MDPATSFAN]

Ok, I've come home and have been sampling some of my own product, straight from the keg, so now Im gonna really stir the shyte pot.

We need to get bigger, taller and faster at the DB positions. This has been a recurring theme of mine since I joined this forum a year and a half ago. In fact, it was the subject of my first post. Our DB's read like the manifest of a MASH unit. These guys are constantly injured. The reason for this is simple. The WR's and TE's are much bigger over the last few years than they ever used to be. And our defensive backs aren't. With the exception of Asante, name one day 1 starting DB who has played an entire season without serious time missing injury over the past 3 seasons. Its simple physics. When you continuously give up 3+" and 30+#, something is going to give. I think we can address the issue with the draft re:the safety position, but CB may require a different track.

Since Troy has broken the ground as dual duty DB, Perhaps the team could groom one of the bigger, faster WR's in a similar role? I've said before that almost every team has that tall fast WR who just runs go patterns and tries to outjump and out run the DB. Lets train Gaffney, Reche, or CJ, if he is slow to develop as a legit #1 WR, to play DB. Let him match up against such WR's in such games that feature the go pattern to the "tall" guy.

Thoughts?

Chad Jackson is the perfect guy for this....He's got the physical capabilities of Champ Bailey and he's not getting "it" at the receiver position. Let's not waste another 2nd round pick!

 

[dhamz]

It is a nice concept but impossible to implement.

There just isn't a supply of NFL caliber big corners out there to tap into. The position requires such quickness that it is extremely rare that a big player can play it. When you get a bigger guy who is fast enough to play that spot, he would go in the top 5 of the draft where we will not be picking any time soon. When you factor in the enforcement of the rules taking all physical play out of the position, the trend is going to be smaller and quicker CBs not bigger, slower ones.

You look at the Pro Bowl Roster and you see Champ Bailey, Rasheen Mathis, and McAlister in the AFC, Barber, Sheppard, Hall, and Harris in the NFC. The only one on the list who exceeds 6 feet and 200 pounds is McAlister and he is 6-1, 206. Everyone else is either below 6 feet or below 200 pounds.

 

[Remix 6]

It is a nice concept but impossible to implement.

There just isn't a supply of NFL caliber big corners out there to tap into. The position requires such quickness that it is extremely rare that a big player can play it. When you get a bigger guy who is fast enough to play that spot, he would go in the top 5 of the draft where we will not be picking any time soon. When you factor in the enforcement of the rules taking all physical play out of the position, the trend is going to be smaller and quicker CBs not bigger, slower ones.

You look at the Pro Bowl Roster and you see Champ Bailey, Rasheen Mathis, and McAlister in the AFC, Barber, Sheppard, Hall, and Harris in the NFC. The only one on the list who exceeds 6 feet and 200 pounds is McAlister and he is 6-1, 206. Everyone else is either below 6 feet or below 200 pounds.

yeah but i think he means taller .. instead of a 5"8 1/2 tall CB and a 5"10

Champ - 6"0
McAlister - 6"1
Harris - 6"1
Mathis - 6"1
Lucas - 6"0
Springs - 6"0
Clements - 6"0
Newman - 5"11
Asomugha - 6"2

but u have some very good shorter CBs aswell..
Winfield - 5"9
Samuel - 5"10

i really liked Cromartie last year..he was a 6"2 CB with 4.3 speed went to Chargers and played very well again us

i dont mind some smaller CBs but they need a big heart/drive like Hobbs so they can eliminate some mismatch with their determination

id like my corner 5"11 + and 195 + with SPEED

 

[Oswlek]

Tall CBs are overrated and unnecessary. Other than the first Indy game, I can't remember a game where the opposition's WRs really schooled NE's CBs, and not one of those passes were completed because of a height advantage.

No, what you need in a CB is speed and agility. Height is nice, but a guy who has all three is either a top 10 pick or very expensive in FA. NE's system is based on finding guys that have strong, but no perfect skill sets. That way you get 80% of the productivity at 40% of the cost.

 

[shirtsleeve]

yeah but i think he means taller .. instead of a 5"8 1/2 tall CB and a 5"10

EXACTLY. 6' or taller and 200#

Champ - 6"0
McAlister - 6"1
Harris - 6"1
Mathis - 6"1
Lucas - 6"0
Springs - 6"0
Clements - 6"0
Newman - 5"11
Asomugha - 6"2

but u have some very good shorter CBs aswell..
Winfield - 5"9
Samuel - 5"10

i really liked Cromartie last year..he was a 6"2 CB with 4.3 speed went to Chargers and played very well again us

i dont mind some smaller CBs but they need a big heart/drive like Hobbs so they can eliminate some mismatch with their determination

id like my corner 5"11 + and 195 + with SPEED

I was practically begging for Cromartie during the draft last year, especially after Greenway et.al. fell off the board just before us. Killed me when the team went offense.

But my intent is not to go out and find that freak of nature corner, but to situationally use a WR to take the, well the Randy Moss, Ashley Lelie type WR on. Ya know, the Bethel Johnson types who dont run great routes but can out jump the corners and run downfield 40 yards on a go or post route really quickly. (Unlike Bethel, these guys usually hang onto the ball.) Just a situational thing for just those guys.

 

[ATippett56]

Ok, I've come home and have been sampling some of my own product, straight from the keg, so now Im gonna really stir the shyte pot.

We need to get bigger, taller and faster at the DB positions.
Thoughts?

Bigger and taller cornerbacks do not necessarily generate better defensive players. Besides, a shorter cornerback with a greater vertical leap ability negates a taller cornerback with a lesser vertical leap ability. Posted below are the combine results of the Patriots first string cornerbacks:

Name: Ellis Hobbs
College: Iowa State Number: 11
Height: 5'-9" Weight: 186
Position: CB Pos2:
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2005
40 Time: 4.45
Projected Round: 3
Rated number 16 out of 133 CB's

Combine Results
Combine Invite: yes
Height: 5'-9"
Weight: 186
40 Yrd Dash: 4.45
20 Yrd Dash: 2.60
10 Yrd Dash: 1.57
Wonderlic: 15
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 12
Vertical Jump: 42"
Broad Jump: 10'-4"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.08
3-Cone Drill: 6.80

Name: Asante Samuel
College: Central Florida Number: 28
Height: 5'-11" Weight: 185
Position: CB Pos2:
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2003
40 Time: 4.49
Projected Round: 3-4
Rated number 12 out of 57 CB's

Combine Results
Combine Invite: yes
Height: 5'-11"
Weight: 185
40 Yrd Dash: 4.49
20 Yrd Dash: 2.66
10 Yrd Dash: 1.59
Wonderlic: 10
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 9
Vertical Jump: 35-1/2"
Broad Jump: 10'-0"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.14
3-Cone Drill: 6.95

 

[Fantasic4x50x54x59x55]

I ve been saying this since day one. You can talk all that hooplah, all you want..But its simple...

Antonio Gates/Alge Crumpler etc. etc. lowering shoulder vs. Any Pats DB going for a hit = OUCH. Could result in a tackle or stop of play but loosing a hobbs or samuel in that one play is alot more of a loss.

Luckily this past season we have been blessed or coached greatly in the art of fundamental tackling, and our DBs arent going for the "Hit Stick" like they have before. I love seeing our guys fired up..and again for WR's Going for the ball, We have some intense fast guys back there who can get there and make a great highlight real hit and/or play..but for screen plays, or big blockers who break to the secondary, or Big Te's WR's coming head on with a head full of steam usually leaves us physically outmatched by a landslide..


Not a knock tho, we still Do it get it done, it would just be nice to have more than one or 2 of our original starters in the backfield around during the playoffs..and I'd like to have a taller DB aswell to match up better vs Taller WR's

like I said not a knock..Hobbs and Samuel and Hawkins are good DBs.

 

[BradyManny]

I disagree. Look at the Jaguars or Bengals games - all we heard were how our CBs were too small for their wideouts, and we did just fine.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

NEM: You have been wrong about Hobbs since you first opened your mind and poored your ignorance onto the keyboard. You might try watching the games instead of screaming at them.

 

[everlong]

Name: Ellis Hobbs
College: Iowa State Number: 11
Height: 5'-9" Weight: 186
Position: CB Pos2:
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2005
40 Time: 4.45
Projected Round: 3
Rated number 16 out of 133 CB's

Combine Results
Combine Invite: yes
Height: 5'-9"
Weight: 186
40 Yrd Dash: 4.45
20 Yrd Dash: 2.60
10 Yrd Dash: 1.57
Wonderlic: 15
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 12
Vertical Jump: 42"
Broad Jump: 10'-4"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.08
3-Cone Drill: 6.80

Name: Asante Samuel
College: Central Florida Number: 28
Height: 5'-11" Weight: 185
Position: CB Pos2:
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2003
40 Time: 4.49
Projected Round: 3-4
Rated number 12 out of 57 CB's

Combine Results
Combine Invite: yes
Height: 5'-11"
Weight: 185
40 Yrd Dash: 4.49
20 Yrd Dash: 2.66
10 Yrd Dash: 1.59
Wonderlic: 10
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 9
Vertical Jump: 35-1/2"
Broad Jump: 10'-0"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.14
3-Cone Drill: 6.95

Interesting that:

1. Hobbs beat Samuel in every category.
2. Both had low wonderlic scores.

 

[everlong]

JHeez, in combine categorys, we canprobably count by the dozens how many guys had great stats but were failures in the NFL.

I wasn't saying that made Hobbs a better player and I understand the Mamula factor. I was just surprised he was better in every category. If somebody had posted who's better between Samuel and Hobbs in each of these categories I would have guess Samuel on at least a few.

 

[ATippett56]

Not saying that stats dont give you some kind of barometer, but footbal isnt played in shorts or sweatpants, running straight ahead with no one in the way.

The combines also test potential NFL prospects in shuttle and 3-Cone drills.

 

[everlong]

He is a hard nosed, active and quick player , but as a corner he is very weak. As a nickel back, where he doesnt have to go one on one, he has a second or two longer to watch the QB, watch the flow and react to it, facing the play...but one on one, Wr on Corner, he is beaten far more often than he is not beaten.

I think he's improving at CB but if they draft Revis or Ross in the first round I think Hobbs would make a great nickle back. I think he would be great against a guy like Clark because he's strong enough to slow him down off the line and then has the speed to cover him down field.

Gay filled that roll for a while and Buckley before him but we haven't had a great nickle back in a while, thus Troy Brown being used.

If we draft a top safety another guy I like in the nickle slot is Wilson if he can stay healthy.

 

[Water Boy]

Bigger and taller cornerbacks do not necessarily generate better defensive players. Besides, a shorter cornerback with a greater vertical leap ability negates a taller cornerback with a lesser vertical leap ability. Posted below are the combine results of the Patriots first string cornerbacks:

Name: Ellis Hobbs
College: Iowa State Number: 11
Height: 5'-9" Weight: 186
Position: CB Pos2:
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2005
40 Time: 4.45
Projected Round: 3
Rated number 16 out of 133 CB's

Combine Results
Combine Invite: yes
Height: 5'-9"
Weight: 186
40 Yrd Dash: 4.45
20 Yrd Dash: 2.60
10 Yrd Dash: 1.57
Wonderlic: 15
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 12
Vertical Jump: 42"
Broad Jump: 10'-4"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.08
3-Cone Drill: 6.80

I don't think it is necessary for CBs to be tall. But if they're on the shorter side like Hobbs, they better have some "ups", and clearly Hobbs does.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

He has been beaten over and over again. ...but on the corner he hurts the team much more than helps the team.

Which is why he is starting and you spend your time whining about BB's decisions which more often than not prove to be correct.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Youmight try watching the games becaus you are dead wrong. He has been beaten over and over again. He loses his man, needs to recover and causes interference or something that looks like interference. He is beaten constantly on quick inside slants because he is too short to cover from behind the receiver, and on many occasions he gives up 10 yards from the line because he knows he will be beaten and then gets beaten, because of that, on a quick out route.

He is a hard nosed, active and quick player , but as a corner he is very weak. As a nickel back, where he doesnt have to go one on one, he has a second or two longer to watch the QB, watch the flow and react to it, facing the play...but one on one, Wr on Corner, he is beaten far more often than he is not beaten.

And, then, once beaten, he has to make the recovery and, invariably, gets called for pass interference or the receiver just catches the ball OVER Hobbs.

Even in the San Diego game he was beaten long, but fortunately, once again the ball was underthrown and Hobbs was able to make a decent play, in fact, it was a good diving deflection, but even on that play, the receiver was well in the open behind him, fortunately the ball was underthrown.

I give him a lot of credit for being a gutsy player, and a very hard hitter considering his size, but on the corner he hurts the team much more than helps the team.

NEM, in between drooling on your key board and making knee jerk reactions at everything you come across in life, does the word "progress" ever enter your thoughts?

You're ripping a guy who has played 2 years in this league. In case you missed it, he was a helluva lot better in year 2 than he was in year 1. Is there any accounting for that in the NEM equation? Or how about, just maybe, this guy will be even better in year 3? Can your irrational mind process that concept, or is it not knee-jerky enough?

Harrison and Wayne combined for 109 yards last week. COMBINED! What do you think was covering those guys, your ego?

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Sorry, but I cant see him getting any better. Like I said, he is a hard nosed player. THis is not a knee jerk reaction as you are suggesting. I think he has done all that he could and that his size is very restrictive.

Dont get me wrong, I admire what he has accomplished, but he is still a detriment as a starting corner, IMO, and quite frankly I fully expect him to be relieved of that role next season.

If he isnt, then I wil come backand say you were right, and I was wrong.

Again, as a nickel back, I believe he can play a bigger part in the defense than as a starting corner.

That, BTW, is far from being an irrational thought.

And, this is what boards like this are for, for pro and con discussion, without the personal blurbs being thrown in like you are doing.

I see nothing wrong with me having an opinion about Hobbs and nothing wrong with you having one, but why do you have to add the little personal jabs...its not necessary, wouldnt you say?

Who is to say that I am not correct and that you might be wrong, or the opposite. Thats what debate is about.

You, and a couple of others, just like to add that little personal comment in, at the end, and it's unnecessary. But, if it makes you feel better, be my guest.

1. The size issue is just plain silly.


2. Not an irrational thought? You've never been guilty of that. (dripping sarcasm)

3. Thank God it is BB and Pioli making this evaluations and not you. Thank GOD.