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Beware Freedom Is On It's Way Out

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Harry Boy, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Obama Loves Drones
  3. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I can pretty much guarantee you that local governments and taxpayers are going to love drones too, considering the helicopters they now have to use for aero-searches cost $1,700,000.00 and a drone, which can do the same things, only more safely, cost approximately $40,000.00


    Read more: Eye in the sky: U.S. government may use 'drones the size of GOLF BALLS to spy on its citizens' | Mail Online
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012
  4. PatriotsReign

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    I challenge all gun owners to shoot down as many drones as possible if they're over your house. I guarantee if I see one over my house, I'll do the best I can with my 1200ft/second pellet gun!
  5. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Funny how so people's views on the government, law enforcement and individual rights are based solely on political party rather than principle.
  6. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If they want to spy on me then go for it ... it will be time well wasted on their part. :p
  7. Hebeill

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    I know the corporations are taking over, it will be just like the days of yore when men women and children worked seven days a week in dangerous conditions for little money.
  8. DarrylS

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    How do golf balls fly????
  9. PatsFanInVa

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    It said the size of golf balls, not the shape of golf balls. Anyway, who said the golf-ball size ones were aerial drones?
  10. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A golf ball is about 1.6 inches, that is pretty small.

    Thought all drones flew, that is what makes them a drone.... did I miss that memo???
  11. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I have a children's playhouse in my backyard. It come complete with farmer's porch and electricity.....

    Since I don't have any kids, maybe it's time to take it down....:D

    Or maybe I leave it there to attract golf-ball size drones that I can shoot down.

    Seriously, I would LOVE to shoot one down and I would try if I ever see one. Then I'd bring it to the nearest police station and tell them I shot down this strange looking craft...or maybe I'd even sell it to the Chinese!
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  12. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's the "hypocrisy" remember the whailing and hair pulling when Bush was tapping phones (of our enemy)
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    You are aware that your "hypocrisy" charge works both ways, aren't you, Harry?

    In other words - remember the silence and the "atta' boys," from the right when Bush was tapping the phones (of our enemy.)
  14. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I do remember, I was one of "the atta boys" he was tapping the phones of "beasts" who wanted to slaughter another 3000 people just as they did on the morning of 9/11.

    GOD WILLING DEATH TO THE GREAT SATAN AMERICA
  15. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It still doesn't address the fact that the right is cool when their team is doing it and the left is (apparently) silent when their team is doing the same thing. The end result is that both sides continue to erode our freedom, assured that at least a portion of Americans are either cheering them on or giving tacit approval in the name of preserving party power.

    Chico is right. Too many view these issues through the partisan lens of gotcha politics.

    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Double post - sorry.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  17. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Trying to leave party platforms out of it......do you really have an objection to a police department using a 40K drone to search for, say, an escaping bank robber, rather than a 1.5 million dollar helicopter?

    Let's not forget, Harry is the one who is saying they will be using drones to spy on unsuspecting or innocent citizens - that's probably not the real purpose - just like Bush's wiretapping wasn't intended to spy on unsuspecting and innocent citizens.

    Does it sometimes work out that way? I'm sure it does....but would the drone be any more invasive or freedom-endangering to the normal non-criminal citizen than whatever's already being done to him/her?

    Sounds like all it would be is cheaper.
  18. chicowalker

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    I remember folks like you being fine with the "Patriot Act," because it was your boy Bush. And I always see the right being ok with police and prosecutors being ok with infringements on rights and anything else done to alleged criminals.

    But thank you for admitting that you are a hypocrite on this matter. I did not expect such candidness.
  19. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nope.

    Harry's not going about it the right way, but he's hinting at the right question. Where are the limiters? I admit to not having read the fine details on this, but I assure you that every new technology and technique that is used by our security services deliberately tries to avoid limiters on their use in order to take advantage of unforeseen situations. There are a lot of people of high integrity working in our intelligence services. However, the potential for abuse by unscrupulous individuals is there (and it happens more than people want to know), and I for one think it is entirely irresponsible not to demand limits on how such powerful intelligence collection tools can be used. It's about giving those with integrity the tools to inhibit the abusers.

    I think our gulf of understanding comes from our differing perceptions of government and power. I don't trust it. Whether it's the experiences of my family under Soviet rule or some of my own experiences, I feel justified in casting a heaping helping of skepticism on the expansion of government capabilities and powers. Your mileage may vary.
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    That's most likely very true. I worked pretty closely with our local police department for many years - and thus, I tend to be pretty trusting of, at least, local authority. I also spent a good deal of years telling my kids things like, "If you don't want them to find things in your locker during a random locker search don't keep things you don't want to be found in your locker."

    I guess maybe I'm not particularily reading this as an "expansion" of government powers - just a different, safer, and more effective means of carrying out the same powers they already have.
  21. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I work closely on the federal side, and there are good people and bad. The federal side is also highly secretive, cutthroat, and concerned with its own interests. In many ways, it is much the same as any other government power, hence my invigorated skepticism in recent years.

    The expansion of capabilities expands the government's real power projection.
  22. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I suppose....but the more protection we demand the more personal freedoms we have to expect to give up, don't we?

    Sometimes there really is no way to completely separate the wheat from the chaff.
  23. PatsFanInVa

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    Part of the discussion here hinges on a fascinating dynamic involving the multiplication of capabilities when a new capability reduces the cost.

    One obvious outcome is it costs you 40K to do the work of something that costs $1.5m, so you just spend 35 (or so) times less money to do the same job. That's what simple math suggests.

    What Nikolai's suspicion implies, and what will almost certainly happen, is that we take a static or growing budget number and just divide by 40k instead of by $1.5 m. Therefore surveillance of all citizens increases dramatically, which is just what's happened in the last couple of decades -- we already know about the proliferation of cameras in western societies (it's even worse in places like Britain where they've already thrown in the towel on the subject of intrusive government -- different history.)

    I remember all the things they talked about in Social Studies classes in 8th grade, the "get the kids to think about important future issues" stuff.

    Some of it was about running out of oil. Check. Some of it was about cyber-stalking capability because of personal information being easily available. Check. Some of it was about the capability for ubiquitous government or corporate surveillance. Check.

    Too bad about that jet pack though.

    The one thing they were really bad at predicting was how computers would be used... all they could imagine was that individuals with computers could use "a device called a MODE-EM (how they pronounced it)" to steal nuclear bomb secrets or something after a great deal of effort, then encode it, and using their MODE-EM, send it to another computer WITHOUT EVEN HAVING TO CARRY A FLOPPY DISC over there.

    They had no idea that a sizable proportion of humanity would be within a few keystrokes of one another at all times. They never understood that when you could commercialize information sharing, the desirable trait becomes transparency, including of information you consider private.

    When some digerati creep says "INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE," I always remember he means "YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE," along with everything else.

    Similarly, when someone says "all them drones and cameras and whatnot ain't that bad," I just think back wi(Please be quiet - edited)lly to those days growing up in the 70s when I could walk down the street, go to this place and that place, make my brick and mortar transactions, and if I wanted to, keep it to myself (well, relatively speaking -- I did live in a small town.)

    Now you just assume somebody somewhere knows exactly what you did, where you did it, and who you did it with... and you count on it not being bloody important enough to ever become "everybody's business." It's still way creepier than thinking that maybe God is tracking you 24/7, but not some computer complex in Langley or somewhere.

    Christ I'm a geezer.

    PS, any of you guys catch the "Masters of Science Fiction" made-for-TV flick "Little Brother"? Much more current speculation, now that 1984 has been in the rearview for almost 30 years. It'll scratch your libertarian itch... try to catch it if you get a chance.

    PPS - the edited word was "W I S T F U L L Y"... God does have a sense of humor.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  24. DarrylS

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    All of will generate a tremendous amount of information, who will review it all???

    There are many hours per day already being generated in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iraq, if we rely on human scrutiny there is a good chance if something happens it will be missed... so what is the point???

    In active situation it may prove valuable, but in a routine situation it will probably prove unwieldy.. imagine big cities hiring a couple of hundred reviewers who will sit in some darkened room reviewing all of these videofeeds..
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  25. Nikolai

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    I think Ben Franklin summed it up best with his now-famous quote. I'm not going to go with the oft-cited trope of "the terrorists win", but I will say that as we exchange freedom for perceived security, we definitely lose.

    There are more creative solutions out there to address our security concerns, but they'll never gain traction among the power brokers, because...they're power brokers.

    Well stated.

    Isn't that the way, though? I don't want to get into a discussion about the "Anonymous" type groups, but they are not the friend of the common person.

    Good post. Not a whole hell of a lot to add.
  26. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You bring up a good point. There aren't enough analysts to review everything. Hell, even prior to 9/11, there weren't enough analysts to review the information based on our capabilities then.

    The problem becomes more acute when you think of an unscrupulous politician or security official using these capabilities in a focused manner to target a rival, or perhaps more dramatically, a dissenter. It's not that far-fetched. It already happens.
  27. PatsFanInVa

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    Problem??? It's the only remaining shred of freedom we have -- the fact that it's too much trouble to review that much data.

    However, I don't think it's good to gather more and more of it. After all, it's just a matter of taking the humans out of the loop and letting the software decide what constitutes data that merits action.

    Why the hell doesn't Cyberdyne have skynet operational yet?
  28. 363839

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    And shortly after people start doing that, those things will be armed.:eek:
  29. IcyPatriot

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    Unmanned aircraft crashes in Maryland, no injuries reported | Fox News

    Now what happens when people get killed ... also what happens when there are so many of these things that they cannot all be tracked and a terrorist minded person crashes one with some ammo into an open stadium?

    I think the potential for loss of life from these things will outweigh the benefit ... an entire new problem for us to deal with.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012

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