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Better NFL offense: Patriots or Saints?

Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by pherein, May 30, 2012.

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  1. pherein

    pherein In the Starting Line-Up

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    Just wanted you to know we still think of you,lol. We have a lot of respect for what NE has done. Just wanted to throw it out there for anyone that was interested, Deus Irae, MoLewisrocks, Mayo, etc would be very interested how you react in our forum. Please try to use the same name. Im sure its not taken.
    Im usually a fish out of water here, but care deeply for your fans.
    Get involved and bridge the gap, we are not so bad when you know us.

    Better NFL offense: Patriots or Saints?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  2. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I tried! Awaiting to be activated by a mod, so, until then:

    This year's potential line ups:

    QB: Pats. Brady is better than Brees IMO and Brees could very possibly sit out which must be taken in to account.
    RB: Saints. We have Woody. You win.
    WR: Pats. Brady is surrounded by binkies. Records will break.
    TE: Pats. Gronknandez is unstoppable in all aspects of TE play. Does Graham even know how to spell the word block?
    OL: Pats. I admit this one may be pure homer bias.
    Coach: Pats. Duh.
     
  3. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey

    In the dome the Saints were the better offense last year by a slim margin. Outside of the dome the Patriots were the better offense by a wider margin.

    Breese -22 home to road QBR
    Brady +10 home to road QBR

    Patriots scored 25 more points on the road than at home
    Saints scored 89 more points at home than on the road

    The Saints didn't play an outdoor cold weather game. The Patriots didn't play an indoor game and they are historically great with Brady inside. The Patriots entire second half of the season was outside in cold weather cities, not that the weather was cold every week.

    No offense but they wouldn't have the same offense outside so IMO they're not as good as NE or GB.
     
  4. sly24

    sly24 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I think all the dome games is the biggest factor here (stats). I would say the Pats have the better offense but it is close.
     
  5. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    In 2011 the Saints offense was better. More points, more passing yards, more rushing yards. Brees had more options. The productivity at the running back position wasn't close.

    Looking ahead to 2012 it's a tossup.
    - Brady or Brees, take your pick.
    - Vereen and Ridley are still unproven and Sproles is much better than Woodhead, so the Saints still have the edge at RB with Ingram, Thomas and Ivory.
    - However at WR the Saints lost Meacham while the Pats added Lloyd and Gaffney, so there's a good chance the Pats will have a superior WR unit.
    - Jimmy Graham is awesome but the Saints TEs do not compare to Gronkowski, Hernandez and Fells.
    - Saints lost G Carl Nicks but replaced him with Ben Grubbs; maybe not a wash, but close to it. Pats lost LT Matt Light but his replacement Nate Solder should continue to improve, making that a wash. RT Sebastian Vollmer returns and in case he cannot Marcus Cannon is ready to go. LG Logan Mankins did have an ACL injury in the Super Bowl but Dan Connolly has already proven he can step right in without missing a beat. If that is the case Dan Koppen is back after missing 2011 to take over at center. Overall I would give the Pats a slight edge on the OL.
    - The wildcard in all of this is the effect of no Sean Payton, and a possible Drew Brees holdout.

    Overall I would say the Pats are more likely to have a better offense in 2012 than the Saints, but it could easily go either way. If that is to be the case the Pats need to get more production from the RB position than they did last year and spread the ball around more than they did in 2011.
     
  6. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 In the Starting Line-Up

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    The Saints have more weapons out of the backfield which you have to account for and it opens up their offense. I think sproles and Thomas added something like 1200 yards to Brees' totals on dump offs that they took 20-30 yards. It's an element the Patriots should work on.

    I'd say this year the Pats are superior at receiver and tight end with the additions of lloyd and gaffney and the saints losing meachem. Running back easily goes to new orleans until vereen and Ridley show they can handle the load. QB is a wash olines are a wash. Coaching goes to new England with Payton suspended.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  7. pherein

    pherein In the Starting Line-Up

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    But if we are better in a dome, and you can't beat us there, and your better on grass and we can't beat you, whats the differnce ? Your stats are on grass, is that a factor we should discount?

    We going to call you a grass team? lol
     
  8. pherein

    pherein In the Starting Line-Up

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    Patriots have a better TE core. But Im still debating WR in my own head.
    Is?
    Lloyd going to = or be better than Colston. Not so far.
    Gaffney going to = or better than Moore. Not so far.
    Plus we still have henderson, Arrington, and Toon. Don't expect much from Toon, even thou the media does. Arrington was drafted to replace Colston. He's ok, catches 82%, but no Colston.
    But he's never been played much.

    OL seems to be a wash, but I think Light is better than Bushrod, but your weaker on the right side with Vollmer and Waters. Our weak spot might be in the center with Puente and Tennant as C, and Grubbs being a new LG.

    I still think you have the better QB, their equally smart, but Brady has abilities Brees just dosnt have. yeah your RB's are not as good, lol I mean really not good. That might change, Thomas was unknown. Ridley or Vereen might do someting. Its hard to figure out. Im just trying to get over the WR hump at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  9. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Patriots. They score more and they win more. It's that simple.

    Whichever position, they are both excellent to watch.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  10. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey

    Except the Patriots are very good in a dome. The Saints numbers go down outside dramatically. The Patriots even though it's on the road are better in domes. Everybody is. Eli, Ben and other cold weather QBs all have better splits in domes even though it's road games. All Dome QBs do worse outside without exception. Brees and Peyton dramatically so.
     
  11. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    If you strictly want to compare the two team's top wide receivers, here are the 2011 numbers

    Patriots
    122-1569 - 9 -- Wes Welker
    70 - 966 - 5 -- Brandon Lloyd
    68 - 947 - 5 -- Jabar Gaffney
    51 - 702 - 5 -- Deion Branch

    Saints
    80 - 1143 - 8 -- Marques Colston
    52 -- 627 - 8 -- Lance Moore
    32 -- 503 - 2 -- Devery Henderson
    2 ---- 31 - 0 -- Adrian Arrington

    Now obviously those numbers are a bit skewed. Lloyd and Gaffney's production will likely decrease as their proportion of the team's offense will decrease (no longer the number one option), while that of Moore, Henderson and Arrington will increase to offset the loss of Robert Meachem (40-620-6). Even so, if I had to make a wager based on which group will outperform the other I think I would have to go with the Patriots' receivers.


    If you want to change the term from 'WR' to 'pass catchers' then it gets a little trickier, but may paint a more complete picture. The Pats' totals look better with the addition of the tight ends, while the Saints' improves with the inclusion of the running back position.

    Patriots
    122 - 1569 - 9 -- Wes Welker
    90 -- 1327 - 17 -- Rob Gronkowski
    70 --- 966 - 5 -- Brandon Lloyd
    68 --- 947 - 5 -- Jabar Gaffney
    79 --- 910 - 7 -- Aaron Hernandez
    51 --- 702 - 5 -- Deion Branch
    23 --- 386 - 1 -- other receivers on team in 2011
    37 --- 363 - 0 -- all running backs on team in 2011
    19 --- 256 - 3 -- Daniel Fells

    Saints
    99 - 1310 - 11 - Jimmy Graham
    80 - 1143 - 8 -- Marques Colston
    86 -- 710 - 7 -- Darren Sproles
    52 -- 627 - 8 -- Lance Moore
    32 -- 503 - 2 -- Devery Henderson
    50 -- 425 - 1 -- Pierre Thomas
    11 --- 50 - 2 -- Jed Collins
    11 --- 46 - 0 -- Mark Ingram
    8 ---- 36 - 1 -- John Gilmore/David Thomas
    2 ---- 31 - 0 -- Adrian Arrington
    1 ----- 4 - 0 -- Michael Higgins


    Projecting ahead for 2012 it's not really a question of Lloyd vs Colston to me; instead the comparisons in production should look something like this:

    • Gronkowski vs Graham
    • Welker vs Colston
    • Lloyd vs Moore
    • Gaffney vs Henderson
    • Hernandez vs Sproles
    • Fells vs other Saints TEs
    • Pats WR#4 (Branch?) vs Arrington
    • All Pats RBs vs all other Saints RBs (not Sproles)


    While it is something that could go either way, I'm more inclined to give the edge to the Patriots in the 2012 passing game.
     
  12. Salva135

    Salva135 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I think it's close, but I really, really love the Saints offense and hope the Pats can emulate them better with more incorporation of the running game and pass-catchers out of the backfield, which Josh McD is more than capable of. Belichick faxed (lol) the Saints yesterday about joint practices in training camp, I think he loves learning from them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  13. rfournier103

    rfournier103 Rookie

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    Hmm.... Tough to say. Anyone can look up the stats from last year, so I'm going to comment about TODAY. Drew Brees is NOT under contract, and the Patriots have a new coordinator, a new starting running back, a new left tackle, and several new recievers.

    I have every confidence that offense won't be the Patriots' issue this year, there can be no way of knowing who will be better. There's just too many variables. I think I could better answer this question after seeing some exhibition games (that's what those glorified practices are) and seeing how the new players adapt to their new roles on their new team.

    As for the Saints... I think it's going to be a tough season on so many levels. Between the coaching and defense being decimated by the NFL over the bounty scandal, one would think the offense would be the beacon of hope. I wasn't expecting much from the Saints this year, but with no Drew Brees, the whole New Orleans team, nevermind just the offense, isn't going anywhere. When Brees signs, I'll come back and have a more complete answer.
     
  14. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The Pats also don't play half their games in a dome. Advantage Pats.
     
  15. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 In the Starting Line-Up

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    More than half, they play in Atlanta every year. Last year they played 11 dome games to the Patriots 0. This year they have 10 and the Pats have 0 again because the Rams game is in London.
     
  16. pherein

    pherein In the Starting Line-Up

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    Sense this has become a dome " no dome" discussion, and not about the teams so much. Let me ask..
    Can you beat the Saints in their Dome?
    Meaning, if we played 10 games in the SuperDome you think you would be 5 wins 5 losses even, or 6 ,7, 8 wins?
    Do you think the Patriots where lucky to get the Giants at lucas stadium instead of the saints?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  17. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Judging from how we play the Giants we're never "lucky" to get them.

    I don't think that's what we're discussing though, we're talking about overall numbers. Saying I think we'd split with the Saints in the Superdome would be disrespectful to the Saints, it's their home field. Now do I think we'd split or possibly win more than 50% vs New Orleans in a neutral domed stadium? Sure, at least the odds would be better than doing so in New Orleans.

    That said do I think Brady would have larger passing numbers if he played 10 games in a dome vs having all of the Pats home games in Foxboro? Yes. Would the Patriots offense for a season produce bigger stats in that scenario? Yes. How could it not? You never have to adjust your gamplan due to weather. You never have 40 MPH wind tunnels in Buffalo that prevent you from chucking it all over the field and what not.
     
  18. pherein

    pherein In the Starting Line-Up

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    QUOTE=Ron Sellers;3056959]

    Now obviously those numbers are a bit skewed. Lloyd and Gaffney's production will likely decrease as their proportion of the team's offense will decrease (no longer the number one option), while that of Moore, Henderson and Arrington will increase to offset the loss of Robert Meachem (40-620-6). Even so, if I had to make a wager based on which group will outperform the other I think I would have to go with the Patriots' receivers.[/QUOTE]
    At this point I would be forced to agree with you. But its important to see that
    Lloyd and Gaffney have not done a thing on the Patriots ..yet. At the moment its just a fan pipe dream. They may do more harm than good or just not work out at all.
    Arrington is pretty solid, played very well when called to, just hasn't played much.
    Morgan and Toon are a pipe dream for us.
    New Orleans Saints receivers set to battle for No. 4 spot - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com
    Nice story but we all know how it usually ends.


    Love that :) consider the term 'pass catcher' to be much more relevant in todays modern offenses. I really like Lloyd, we play against him every year. Jabar Gaffney was with the Pats for a couple years I thought, and that didn't work out. Im not willing to give him the superstar status just yet. Lloyd, I can tell everyone here, is going to be a instant hit. He's pretty damn good. Going to be interesting to see what he can do with a elite QB throwing to him.
    The numbers are wrong though. Your not going to plug in 1900 fictional yards from
    Lloyd and Gaffney from other teams they played on. Someones numbers are going to drop,lol.
    Take 900-1000 yards off Welker and Gronk and I might believe Lloyd and Gaffney numbers. :)



    I have to agree that the Pats might have a better WR core this year. Im not counting Gaffney in that. I think he's a stable piece, but not a big time player. He's not better than Henderson. If you consider Henderson function as a deep threat sprinter. Thats his role on the Saints. Look at Receiving 'Lng', and Y/R.

    Devery Henderson NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

    Jabar Gaffney NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

    You don't think this year its more a

    • Gronkowski vs Graham
    • Lloyd vs Colston
    • Welker vs Moore ( both slot WR's)
    • Hernandez vs Henderson
    • Gaffney, Branch vs Arrington, Morgan, or Toon
    • ? vs Sproles
    • ? vs Thomas
    • BJGE vs Ivory

    This year ?

    Moore has close to Welkers catching ability. Meaning leading the NFC in least dropped balls for a number of years now.
    NFC South's good-hands club - NFC South Blog - ESPN
    With Meachem gone that only means more passes his way, and we both know he can handle that. But Welker is always going to be better.

    [*]Lloyd vs Colston is the real question. Right now you have to take Colston. We both know he's going to do 1000 or so again. I don't see Lloyd as a question mark. I think he will do 1000 yards on the Pats. But Colston is younger, much taller, a bigger target, and done more with his career.

    Marques Colston NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

    Brandon Lloyd NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

    You can match Colston vs Welker and Gronk vs Graham and come out even in the end, but do you think Lloyd is really better than Moore?
    I just think the match up should be as I showed above. You think I'm wrong?

    With Sproles, Thomas , and Ivory as pass catchers out of the back field, I don't think the Pats have an answer for that. BJGE and Ivory are pretty equal. But there is no Sproles or Thomas type player on the Patriots.

    Hernz is putting you over the top for me in the WR area.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  19. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Just to clarify I purposely avoided comparing same position vs same position, which is why I did not compare Welker to Moore and why I did compare Hernandez to Sproles; it was more an attempt to equalize the comparison of percentage of production.

    Gaffney did quite well when he was here before. About half way through the 2007 season he surpassed Stallworth as the receiver on the outside to Brady's right. The Chiefs offered more money than the Pats did and in retrospect the difference was small enough that I am sure Belichick wishes he could have a mulligan on that decision. I wouldn't characterize it as 'not working out'.

    While it is true that Lloyd and Gaffney did not play for the Patriots last year there are valid reasons to anticipate they will catch on easily, and do well. Lloyd has played for OC Josh McDaniels for the last few years, and Gaffney picked up the system when he played in this offense before. Both had over 900 yards receiving last year, and that was with inferior quarterbacks throwing them the ball.

    The point is not that they are going to duplicate those numbers - they aren't - which is why I said "obviously those numbers are a bit skewed. Lloyd and Gaffney's production will likely decrease as their proportion of the team's offense will decrease (no longer the number one option)." The point is that based on what they did last year and based on their past success in this offensive system, there is reason to believe they will be successful when called upon (as opposed to what happened with Ochocinco or Taylor Price).
     
  20. ProudestRyno

    ProudestRyno On the Game Day Roster

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    Is this a serious comment?
     
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