Bethel Johnson Traded

[Pats726]

A 2nd rounder for a number 6 pick in the draft..NOT bad..better than zero..which is what they would have gotten in a few months...

 

[edzo44]

Amazing what this bored board can do with real football news isn't it?

Personally I'm not surprised Bethel's gone, he obviously never quite got it and was too dense to realize if he wasn't doing exactly what the coaches were asking and then telling him to do he was going to be out of here. Glad he's gone, maybe a different system will be good for him or might at least force a change of attitude which is what his main problem actually appeared to be. Three years was plenty of time to prove himself and he couldn't do it! Maybe one team's underachiever can really turn out to be another team's amazing steal! Hope so for both these guys so it can be win - win all around. Certainly makes Training Camp more competetive, going to be fun to watch.

 

[SaCaCh]

According to Pasta belly Sullys last two years were voided, so he is only til 2007 also.

 

[BelichickFan]

According to Pasta belly Sullys last two years were voided, so he is only til 2007 also.

That would be Pasquarelli, we should be above making fun of people's weight. Unless you're still in 7th grade.

Anyway, here's the quote :

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2471676

"As a first-rounder in 2003, Sullivan signed a seven-year contract in which the final two seasons voided. He received a signing bonus of $7.4 million and a second-tier option bonus of $4 million. New England will inherit the final two seasons of that contract, at base salaries of $698,083 in 2006 and $901,333 in 2007."

Slightly disappointing but we still get him for two years for almost nothing. That'll be more than enough time to see if he's worth anything.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't think Sullivan has the ability to 'attack upfield' as you say. He has a grand total of 1.5 sacks in 3 seasons with the Saints. I would be satisfied with him being a space eater backing up Wilfork. Though I'm not sure if he has much experience playing 3 technique, but he was a linemate of Seymour's at Georgia, so I think he can make the transition.

Another thing to note is the Pats are quite well set at DE with Seymour and Warren. I very much doubt Sullivan was brought in to compete with those guys. Especially since Green and invisible man Hill are already in place. Where we need the depth is NT.

I don't think Sullivan is intended as a NT, but as a 3-4 DE. His experience is attacking upfield, not as a two-gap space eater ( as a opposed to every other kind of eater). That seems more easily converted to DE than NT. Plus his height is in the DE range. His weight is currently 328, but supposedly will be down below 320... just a thought.

 

[PonyExpress]

I don't think Sullivan has the ability to 'attack upfield' as you say. He has a grand total of 1.5 sacks in 3 seasons with the Saints. I would be satisfied with him being a space eater backing up Wilfork. Though I'm not sure if he has much experience playing 3 technique, but he was a linemate of Seymour's at Georgia, so I think he can make the transition.

Another thing to note is the Pats are quite well set at DE with Seymour and Warren. I very much doubt Sullivan was brought in to compete with those guys. Especially since Green and invisible man Hill are already in place. Where we need the depth is NT.

Maybe you're right... In which case we should start him on a cheeseburger program. 6'3'' 325 for a NT seems a bit svelte...

 

[patchick]

the aspect of Seymour's presence and influence simply cannot be undersold

Several posters have emphasized this...I'm not so convinced by the old-teammate argument. (It reminds me far too much of the way that reuniting David Terrell with his old college QB was supposed to turn him around last year.) If Sullivan is a different player here I'll guess it will be because of the coaching, the scheme, and the major wake-up call of being cast off by the team that drafted him.

Totally intriguing trade overall. I mentally waved goodbye to Bethel after his recent mega-clueless interview...but we really do need another WR.

 

[rookBoston]

Are you kidding me?

This may be the greatest player for player trade I've ever come across.

Remember, Bethel was a healthy scratch for most of last season, and BB didn't even think enough of him to put him on the playoff roster. Raw speed is of no help if you're not on the field. BB had the rookie Hobbs fielding Kickoffs, rather than his mutant speedster. There is obviously a gap. I was starting to think that Bethel was going the way of PK Sam... to be cut and signed by some other team. Like someone else posted, I would have traded him for a box of chinstraps.

Jonathan Sullivan may have been a zero in New Orleans, but he was widely regarded on this board as THE premier DL pick for the Patriots in 2003. The Pats had multiple first rounders that offseason, and all the talk was that BB/SP would trade up to make sure of either him or Dwayne Robertson. Those two were a toss up for us along with Terrell Suggs, as an OLB. That's the calibre of talent we're talking about.

There was a massive sigh of disappointment when BB instead traded up one spot to #13 for Ty Warren, who we all had a cut below in terms of talent and upside. Warren took a year and a half to win a starting spot, but he's become a solid pro. I have little doubt that if we have drafted Sullivan and New Orleans had taken Warren, Warren would be out of the NFL today, and Sullivan would be a probowler.

Sullivan came out as an underclassman, so he's still young. He got high marks from Seymour in 2003 as a prospect. Now, under Seymour's leadership, Sullivan has a chance to finally find his legs and make a difference.

The Saints have a new head-man calling the shots, and IMO they are selling low. Even if worse comes to worst, we can cut Sullivan outright and still come out ahead. Bethel wasn't going to see the field this year anyway, barring catastrophic injuries or a miraculous change in attitude. Bam Childress was playing ahead of Johnson last year. All my 53-man projections this offseason have had Johnson as a roster cut.

Hands down, this is a steal. I cant possibly understand why so many fans are disappointed. Sullivan is an underachieving young talent. We got him for a 2nd rounder who our head coach refuses to put on the field.

------------

For those of you who think this is a "signal" about Branch's contract negotiations, or BB's confidence in Hill, or anything like that... that is just not BB's MO at all. He'll tell the press (and IMO this is actually what he believes) he's always looking for ways to improve the team. WR may seem like a need to some (?), but we have five players that I like right now (Branch, Jackson, Caldwell, Brown and Childress). Of the bunch, Brown may be the weak link! That's not even considering a David Patten option.

For those of you who think this is a "signal" that he's planning to move to a 4-3 D... that's absurd. BB has spent his entire professional career perfecting the 3-4 defense, and now he has complete autonomy to do so. So long as he has enough warm bodies, he'll run a base 3-4. If he shifts to a 4-3, midseason, it'll simply prove that he has admitted defeat; that he doesn't have the LBs to execute it. I'm confident it will never come to that.

But, if we're playing with the idea, I think it's just as likely that he's looking to run a 5-2 defense:

Warren - Green - Wilfork - Seymour - Sullivan
Bruschi - Vrabel

Holy crap! I dare you to find a team that can run at that front-7. If you're facing a team like Baltimore or San Diego, and you want to force them to put the ball up in the air, what better scheme could you possibly design? This may be the best young DL that I've ever set eyes on.

 

[dryheat44]

This may be the greatest player for player trade I've ever come across.



Jonathan Sullivan may have been a zero in New Orleans, but he was widely regarded on this board as THE premier DL pick for the Patriots in 2003. The Pats had multiple first rounders that offseason, and all the talk was that BB/SP would trade up to make sure of either him or Dwayne Robertson. Those two were a toss up for us along with Terrell Suggs, as an OLB. That's the calibre of talent we're talking about.

.

Or, playing on a line with Seymour and Stroud, he looked a lot better than he was.

 

[PonyExpress]

rookboston,
while I respect your depth of analysis I question your opinion of Warren. IMO Warren right now is close to a top 10 DT in the NFL. To suggest he would only have excelled in NE and would be out of the league if drafted elswhere is not giving him enough credit for his success, however much we respect BB's ability to develop talent. Maybe you were just overstating your case...

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

The obvious question is what does BB think he can get out of Sullivan that the Saints couldn't. When was the last time we had a player-for-player trade?

Well, on the question of what the Pats think they can get out of Sullivan that NO couldn't, I submit the acquisitions of Gerard Warren and Courtney Brown by Denver last year, after years of non-performance in the Cleveland system.

Different things will be asked of Mr. Sullivan here, and he'll have a much, much better supporting cast with which he can ply his wares. And he'll undoubtedly be utilized quite differently here than he was in New Orleans.

He is, after all, now with a team that knows what it's doing.

Give him a chance, I say. I think it's a trade with good upside for the Pats.

 

[Mark Morse]

This may be the greatest player for player trade I've ever come across.

I am glad to see that we agree! Your analysis is dead on. We got something for nothing.

Now lets see if Big Sey and BB can get Sullivan in shape to pass the running test!

 

[Seymour93]

"Clearly frustrated by his dubious work habits and conditioning, the New Orleans Saints on Monday threw in the towel on defensive tackle Johnathan Sullivan..."

Even Jerry Rice's work habits would probably be considered 'dubious' if he had to spend the first three years of his career with a head coach like Jim Haslett. You're already making millions, so there's little motivation in a situation like New Orleans has been the past few seasons. Bethel had plenty of time to prove himself here. Good trade.

 

[dhamz]

Anytime you trade a guy who has no shot of making your team it is a good trade. This makes it a good trade for both teams.

If Sullivan can play back-up NT that fills a big need for the Pats. If he can't and they cut him, no loss since they would have cut Bethel too.

 

[PlattsFan]

There is no downside to this deal for the Pats; Bethel was sunk cost at this point. Arguing about the upside of the deal is inconsequential to evaluating the deal. It was a good deal.

As for Sullivan, the Scouts Inc. evaluation quoted on the second page makes him sound like a classic 2-gap plugger. Strong and powerful enough to control the line of scrimmage, but has trouble in penetration from a slow fire off the ball and a lack of quick counter pass rush moves. Bad for the Saints' scheme, good for the Pats'. If they teach him to read-n-react and use his strength, he could be valuable to the team.

Or he might flame out. And the Pats cut him and aren't on the hook for any of his bonus. Risk-free pickup of a big d-lineman who still has promise. Works for me.

Big D-linemen with some ability are like pitchers in baseball: you can never have too many.

 

[14thDragon]

I think it was a no lose deal. If I read the reports correctly the last two years of the deal are voided and the contract will be renegotiotated after he makes it to Gillete. On the other hand the traded away a guy destined to be cut for some TC potential. I'm not going to put too much stock in the college buddies with Sey, Terrel was brought in partially due to his connection with Brady and still did not quite pan out.

However it did occur to me that perhaps the next deal in the works is Hill & Klecko for Stalworth. Just a thought.

 

[rookBoston]

Or, playing on a line with Seymour and Stroud, he looked a lot better than he was.

Well he still looked good the year after Seymour and Stroud went pro.

They used Stroud as an excuse for why Seymour was overrated, and why the Pats reached, taking him #6. In the end, it's the BB/SP scouting that figures this stuff out, way better than the talking heads.

 

[SamBamsFan]

I fully gree with you about Bethel Johnson.

Perhaps if they gave Bethel more of a chance, and called the type of play7s he can excel at, deep post patterns where his speed geets him behind the safeties and he can aCELERATE AT FULLSPEED....


Instead,they kept sending him on sideline fly patterns, which has proventobe Brady's weakes passing situation...and almost impossible to complete...where the speed receiver has to give ground, and speed, to stay in bounds.


Deep Post patterns were rarely called for Bethel...

Watch the Saints explode him on those routes.

I guess you mean exploit him. If Brady can not reach Bethel, how will Brees (even before the bad shoulder injury)?

 

[rookBoston]

rookboston,
while I respect your depth of analysis I question your opinion of Warren. IMO Warren right now is close to a top 10 DT in the NFL. To suggest he would only have excelled in NE and would be out of the league if drafted elswhere is not giving him enough credit for his success, however much we respect BB's ability to develop talent. Maybe you were just overstating your case...

I actually do believe that Warren would have turned into a nothing player for the Saints. He is as much a product of the Pats system as David Patten and David Givens on the O side, or Brandon Mitchell, Bobby Hamilton and Chad Eaton on the D side. There's nothing special about them athletically. They're incredibly productive because the staff knows how to use them.

The Saints have drafted good players in the past, who have all gone on to enjoy pretty inauspicious careers. Will Smith, for example, should be a probowler, and probably would be for any "real" NFL coached team.

BB has the record of turning players' careers around. Antowain Smith, Marc Edwards. Mike Vrabel, who was a washout with the Steelers. When Rodney came to Foxboro he had lost a step and was at the end of his career.

Hopefully, Sullivan is one of those, not another David Terrell.

 

[SamBamsFan]

I only pray that Sullivan gets a tight number.

Don't even start, please...