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Best spin so far in 2007

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Holy Diver, Apr 25, 2007.

  1. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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    #80 Jersey

    I dare y'all to beat this beauty by The President of the United Sates:

    “Last November, the American people said they were frustrated and wanted a change in our strategy in Iraq. I listened. Today, General David Petraeus is carrying out a strategy that is dramatically different from our previous course. The American people did not vote for failure, and that is precisely what the Democratic leadership’s bill would guarantee.”

    he is living in a different world than EVERYONE.....If people weren't dying, this would be hilarious.
     
  2. Pujo

    Pujo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Even if he thinks the Democrats represent failure, that is who the people voted for, no?
     
  3. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    And have you actually sat down and seriously contemplated what would happen in Iraq if the U.S. just pulls up stakes and leaves tomorrow?? My guess is that there would be two to ten times MORE violence.

    Remember Vietnam. Remember the boat people. Remember the killing fields of Cambodia, one third of the population disappeared (until they found their skeletons).


    //
     
  4. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    your "guess", indeed... we've all come to take your guesses with about as much validity as the president's...

    please stop acting like our stuck-in-the-mud presence there is the only thing holding the finger in the dike... the Iraqis want us out, almost 85% of them... we f_cked that country up for 200 years... as was predicted...

    regardless of the potential increase in violence there if we left, it would still be about 1/10th the carnage in central africa... and you Loyal Bushies are dead set against stemming that violence, aren't you?

    odd "Christianity" there...
     
  5. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    1. Thanks for the compliment on validity.

    2. 85%?? Don't know whom you're talking about, or under what circumstances they would say such a thing, or how the question was contexted, but your assertion is just spin, nothing more.

    3. Oh, that's right, you want to start your own war when this one's still raging; in fact, you want to PULL OUT of this war and go into a new one. You couldn't write a better prescription for a failure if you tried.

    4. Oh, and by the way: ALL THE DEMOCRATS VOTED FOR GOING INTO IRAQ even when Bush said it would take years, it would be long, it would be tough, and the results would not show up immediately. ALL THE DEMS still voted for it. Only now, when the difficulties have reached their peak, do the faint of heart, the half-hearted, those without resolve, wish to pull out. Shame on anyone who would do that.

    Remember Vietnam. Remember the boat people. Remember the killing fields of Cambodia. Don't waste the epiphany that NYTimes reporter had; it's still very much in play today.


    //
     
  6. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    gawd, your posts always sound like pretentious sermons, with some goofy zinger at the end to whip the gullible flock into a frenzy...

    "ALL the Dems" is yet another lie propagated by our most out-of-touch posters... population: YOU...

    here's the list of Congressmen and Senators who voted against the Iraq resolution in 2002.... notice the "D" next to most of their names, if you're able:

    Neil Abercrombie (D-HI 1st)
    Tom Allen (D-ME 11st)
    Joe Baca (D-CA 42nd)
    Brian Baird (D-WA 3th)
    John Baldacci (D-ME 2nd)
    Tammy Baldwin (D-WI 2nd)
    Xavier Becerra (D-CA 30th)
    Earl Blumenauer (D-OR 3rd)
    David Bonoir (D-MI 10th)
    Robert Brady (D-PA 1st)
    Corrine Brown (D-FL 3rd)
    Sherrod Brown (D-OH 13th)
    Lois Capps (D-CA 22nd)
    Michael E. Capuano (D-MA 8th)
    Ben Cardin (D-MD 3rd)
    Julia Carson (D-IN 10th)
    William Lacy Clay, Jr. (D-MO 1st)
    Eva Clayton (D-NC 1st)
    James Clyburn (D-SC 6st)
    Gary Condit (D-CA 18th)
    John Conyers (D-MI 14st)
    Jerry Costello (D-IL 12th)
    William Coyne (D-PA 14th)
    Elijah Cummings (D-MD 7st)
    Susan Davis (D-CA 49th)
    Danny K. Davis (D-IL 7th)
    Peter DeFazio (D-OR 4th)
    Diana DeGette (D-CO 1st)
    William Delahunt (D-MA 10th)
    Rosa DeLauro (D-CT 3rd)
    John Dingell (D-MI) 15th
    Lloyd Doggett (D-TX 25th)
    Mike Doyle (D-PA 18th)
    John James Duncan, Jr. (R-TN 2nd)
    Anna Eshoo (D-CA 14th)
    Lane Evans (D-IL 17th)
    Sam Farr (D-CA 17th)
    Chaka Fattah (D-PA 2nd)
    Bob Filner (D-CA 50th)
    Barney Frank (D-MA 4th)
    Charlie Gonzalez (D-TX 20th)
    Luis Gutierrez (D-IL 4th)
    Alcee Hastings (D-FL 23rd)
    Earl F. Hilliard (D-AL 7th)
    Maurice Hinchey (D-NY 22nd)
    Ruben Hinojosa (D-TX 15th)
    Rush Holt (D-NJ 12th)
    Mike Honda (D-CA 15th)
    Darlene Hooley (D-OR 5th)
    John Hostettler (R-IN 8th)
    Amo Houghton (R-NY 29th)
    Jay Inslee (D-WA 1st)
    Jesse Jackson, Jr. (D-IL 2nd)
    Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-TX 18th)
    Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-TX 30th)
    Stephanie Tubbs Jones (D-OH 11th)
    Marcy Kaptur (D-OH 9th)
    Dale E. Kildee (D-MI 5th)
    Carolyn Kilpatrick (D-MI 13th)
    Jerry Kleczka (D-WI 4th)
    Dennis Kucinich (D-OH 10th)
    John LaFalce (D-NY 29th)
    James R. Langevin (D-RI 2nd)
    Rick Larsen (D - WA 2nd)
    John Larson (D-CT 1st)
    Jim Leach (R-IA 1st)
    Barbara Lee (D-CA 9th)
    Sander Levin (D - MI 12th)
    John Lewis (D-GA 5th)
    William Lipinski (D-IL 3rd)
    Zoe Lofgren (D-CA 16th)
    James H. Maloney (D-CT 5th)
    Robert Matsui (D-CA 5th)
    Karen McCarthy (D-MO 3rd)
    Betty McCollum (D-MN 4th)
    Jim McDermott (D-WA 7th)
    James McGovern (D-MA 3rd)
    Cynthia McKinney (D-GA 4th)
    Carrie P. Meek (D-FL 17th)
    Gregory W. Meeks (D-NY 6th)
    Bob Menendez (D-NJ 6th)
    Juanita Millender-McDonald (D-CA 37th)
    George Miller (D-CA 7th)
    Alan Mollohan (D - WV 1st)
    Jim Moran (D-VA 8th)
    Connie Morella (R-MD 8th)
    Jerrold Nadler (D-NY 8th)
    Grace Napolitano (D-CA 34th)
    Richard E. Neal (D-MA 2nd)
    James Oberstar (D-MN 8th)
    David Obey (D-WI7th)
    John Olver (D-MA 1st)
    Major Owens (D-NY 11th)
    Frank Pallone (D-NJ 6th)
    Ed Pastor (D-AZ 2nd)
    Ron Paul (R-TX 14th)
    Donald Payne (D-NJ 10th)
    Nancy Pelosi (D-CA 8th)
    David Price (D-NC 4th)
    Nick Rahall (D-WV 3rd)
    Charles Rangel (D-NY 15th)
    Silvestre Reyes (D-TX 16th)
    Lynn Nancy Rivers (D-MI 13th)
    Ciro Rodriguez (D-TX 23rd)
    Lucille Roybal-Allard (D-CA 33rd)
    Bobby Rush (D-IL 1st)
    Martin Olav Sabo (D-MN 5th)
    Loretta Sanchez (D-CA 46th)
    Bernie Sanders (I-VT At Large)
    Thomas C. Sawyer (D-OH 13th)
    Janice D. Schakowsky (D-IL 9th)
    Robert C. Scott (D-VA 3rd)
    José E. Serrano (D-NY 16th
    Louise Slaughter (D-NY 28th)
    Vic Snyder (D-AR 2nd)
    Hilda Solis (D-CA 31st)
    Pete Stark (D-CA 13th)
    Ted Strickland (D-OH 6th)
    Bart Stupak (D-MI 1st)
    Mike Thompson (D-CA 1st)
    Bennie Thompson (D-MS 2nd)
    John Tierney (D-MA 6th)
    Edolphus Towns (D-NY 10th)
    Mark Udall (D-CO 2nd)
    Tom Udall (D-NM 3rd)
    Nydia Velazquez (D-NY 12th)
    Peter Visclosky (D-IN 1st)
    Maxine Waters (D-CA 35th)
    Diane Watson (D-CA 32nd)
    Mel Watt (D-NC 12th)
    Lynn Woolsey (D-CA 6th)
    David Wu (D-OR 1st

    SENATORS:

    Daniel Akaka (D-HI)
    Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)
    Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
    Robert Byrd (D-WV)
    Lincoln Chafee (R-RI)
    Jon Corzine (D-NJ)
    Kent Conrad (D-ND)
    Mark Dayton (D-MN)
    Dick Durbin (D-IL)
    Russ Feingold (D-WI)
    Bob Graham (D-FL)
    Daniel Inouye (D-HI)
    Jim Jeffords (I-VT)
    Ted Kennedy (D-MA)
    Patrick Leahy (D-VT)
    Carl Levin (D-MI)
    Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
    Patty Murray (D-WA)
    Jack Reed (D-RI)
    Paul Sarbanes (D-MD)
    Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)
    Paul Wellstone (D-MN)
    Ron Wyden (D-OR)

    any other brilliance to offer, Mr. Robertson?
     
  7. scout

    scout Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #15 Jersey

    What is the difference if we pull out tomorrow or we pull out in the next century? The only difference is, that there will be more dead American soldiers if we delay pulling out.
     
  8. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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    #80 Jersey

    I don't think you understand that there is no talking point for such a valid argument....I'll make one up by using my "rovinator 2000".....

    Inputting valid statement.....

    (insert computer sounds)

    "Our American soldiers serve at the pleasure of the president"
     
  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Ah yessss........
    The Domino Theory.
    How's that workin out for Westmoreland and McNamara?
     
  10. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    I am not Pat Robertson. Robertson doesn't even like Unificationists. But if I close my eyes after reading one of your posts, I can see ol' Vlad Lenin sitting behind his trusty keyboard, stomping out the vitriol and spin that you churn.


    And, oh, so sorry, it wasn't *all* Dems who voted to use force in Iraq, it was only:

    In the House, the vote was [highlight] 296-133 in favor of using force, while in the Senate, the vote was 77-23 [/highlight] in favor.

    It's notable that a total of [highlight]29 Democrat Senators, including Hillary, John Kerry, John Edwards, Harry Reid, Chris Dodd, Charles Shumer, Tom Daschle (Senate Democrat Minority Leader), Joseph Biden, Dianne Feinstein, Tom Harkin, Max Cleland are all among 371 others in Congress who are not on your list because they DID vote for force.[/highlight] Funny how when people want to run for president, they somehow don't want to look soft. But when they are not running for election they all of a sudden feel so peaceful and want to pass the bong pipe around.

    House Voting for:

    * Gary Ackerman (D-NY 5th)
    * Robert Aderholt (R-AL 4th)
    * Todd Akin (R-MO 2nd)
    * Rob Andrews (D-NJ 1st)
    * Dick Armey (R-TX 26th)
    * Spencer Bachus (R-AL 6th)
    * Richard Baker (politician) (R-LA 6th)
    * Cass Ballenger (R-NC 10th)
    * Jim Barcia (D-MI 5th)
    * Bob Barr (R-GA 7th)
    * Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD 6th)
    * Joe Barton (R-TX 6th)
    * Charlie Bass (R-NH 2nd)
    * Ken Bentsen (D-TX 25th)
    * Doug Bereuter (R-NE 1st)
    * Shelley Berkley (D-NV 1st)
    * Howard Berman (D-CA 26th)
    * Marion Berry (D-AR 1st)
    * Judy Biggert (R-IL 13th)
    * Michael Bilirakis (R-FL 9th)
    * Sanford Bishop (D-GA 2nd)
    * Rod Blagojevich (D-IL 5th)
    * Roy Blunt (R-MO 7th)
    * Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY 24th)
    * John Boehner (R-OH) 8th
    * Henry Bonilla (R-TX 23nd)
    * Mary Bono (R-CA 45th)
    * John Boozman (R-AR 3rd)
    * Bob Borski (D-PA 3rd)
    * Leonard Boswell (D-IA 3rd)
    * Richard Boucher (D-VA 9th)
    * Allen Boyd (D-FL 2nd)
    * Kevin Brady (R-TX 8th)
    * Henry E. Brown, Jr. (R-SC 1st)
    * Ed Bryant (R-TN 7th)
    * Richard Burr (R-NC 5th)
    * Dan Burton (R-IN 6th)
    * Steve Buyer (R-IN 5th)
    * Sonny Callahan (R-AL 1st)
    * Ken Calvert (R-CA 43rd)
    * David Lee Camp (R-MI 4th)
    * Chris Cannon (R-UT 3rd)
    * Eric Cantor (R-VA 7th)
    * Shelley Moore Capito (R-WA 2nd)
    * Brad Carson (D-OK 2nd)
    * Michael N. Castle (R-DE At Large)
    * Steve Chabot (R-OH 1st)
    * Saxby Chambliss (R-GA 8th)
    * Bob Clement (D-TN 5th)
    * Howard Coble (R-NC 6th)
    * Mac Collins (R-GA 3rd)
    * Larry Combest (R-TX 19th)
    * John Cooksey (R-LA 5th)
    * Chris Cox (R-CA 47th)
    * Robert Cramer (D-AL 5th)
    * Philip Crane (D-IL 8th)
    * Ander Crenshaw (R-FL 4th)
    * Joseph Crowley (D-NY 7th)
    * Barbara Cubin (R-WY At Large)
    * John Culberson (R-TX 7th)
    * Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R-CA 51st)
    * Jim Davis (D-FL 11th)
    * Jo Ann Davis (R-VA 1st
    * Tom Davis (R-VA 11th)
    * Nathan Deal (R-GA 9th)
    * Tom DeLay (R-TX 22nd)
    * Jim DeMint (R-SC 4th)
    * Peter Deutsch (D-FL 20th)
    * Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-FL 21st)
    * Norman Dicks (D-WA 6th)
    * Cal Dooley (D-CA 20th)
    * John Doolittle (R-CA 4th)
    * David Dreier (R-CA 28th)
    * Jennifer Dunn (R-WA 8th)
    * Chet Edwards (D-TX 11th)
    * Vernon Ehlers (R-MI 3rd)
    * Robert Ehrlich (R-MD 2nd)
    * Jo Ann Emerson (R-MO 8th)
    * Eliot L. Engel (D-NY 17th)
    * Phil English (R-PA 21th)
    * Bob Etheridge (D-NC 2nd)
    * Terry Everett (R-AL 2nd)
    * Mike Ferguson (R-NJ 7th)
    * Jeff Flake (R-AZ 1st)
    * Ernie Fletcher (R-KY 6th)
    * Mark Foley (R-FL 16th)
    * Randy Forbes (R-VA 4th)
    * Harold Ford (D-TN 9th)
    * Vito Fossella (R-NY 13th)
    * Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-NJ 11th)
    * Martin Frost (D-TX 26th)
    * Elton Gallegly (R-CA 23rd)
    * Greg Ganske (R-IA 4th)
    * George Gekas (R-PA 17th)
    * Dick Gephardt (D-MO 3rd)
    * Jim Gibbons (R-NV 2nd)
    * Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD 1st)
    * Paul Gillmor (R-OH 5th)
    * Benjamin Gilman (R-NY 22nd)

    * Virgil Goode (R-VA 5th)
    * Bob Goodlatte (R-VA 6th)
    * Bart Gordon (D-TN 6st)
    * Porter Goss (R-FL 14th)
    * Lindsey Graham (R-SC 3rd)
    * Kay Granger (R-TX12th)
    * Sam Graves (R-MO 6th)
    * Gene Green (D-TX 29th)
    * Mark Green (R-WI 8th)
    * James Greenwood (R-PA 8th)
    * Felix Grucci (R-NY 1st)
    * Gil Gutknecht (R-MN 1st)
    * Ralph Hall (R-TX 4th)
    * James V. Hansen (R-UT 1st)
    * Jane Harman (D-CA 36th)
    * Melissa Hart (D-PA 4th)
    * Dennis Hastert (R-IL 14th)
    * Doc Hastings (R-WA 4th)
    * Robin Hayes (R-NC 8th)
    * J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ 6th)
    * Joel Hefley (R-CO 5th)
    * Wally Herger (R-CA 2nd)
    * Baron Hill (D-IN 9th)
    * Van Hilleary (R-TN 4th)
    * Dave Hobson (R-OH 7th)
    * Joe Hoeffel (D-PA 4th)
    * Pete Hoekstra (R-MI 2nd)
    * Tim Holden (D-PA 6th)
    * Steve Horn (R-CA 38th)
    * Steny Hoyer (D-MD 5th)
    * Kenny Hulshof (R-MO 9th)
    * Duncan Hunter (R-CA 52nd)
    * Henry Hyde (R-IL 6th)
    * Johnny Isakson (R-GA 6th)
    * Steve Israel (D-NY 2nd)
    * Darrell Issa (R-CA 48th)
    * Ernest J. Istook (R-OK 5th)
    * William Jefferson (D-LA 2nd)
    * William Jenkins (R-TN 1st)
    * Chris John (D-LA 7th)
    * Nancy Johnson (R-CT 6th)
    * Timothy V. Johnson (R-IL 15th)
    * Sam Johnson (R-TX 3rd)
    * Walter Jones (R-NC) 3rd)
    * Paul Kanjorski (D-PA 11th)
    * Ric Keller (R-FL 8th)
    * Sue Kelly (R-NY 19th)
    * Mark Kennedy (R-MN 2nd)
    * Patrick J. Kennedy (D-RI 1st)
    * Brian D. Kerns (R-IN 7th)
    * Ron Kind (D-WI 3rd)
    * Peter King (R-NY 3rd)
    * Jack Kingston (R-GA 1st)
    * Mark Steven Kirk (R-IL 10th)
    * Joe Knollenberg (R-MI 9th)
    * Jim Kolbe (R-AZ 5th)
    * Ray LaHood (R-IL 18th)
    * Nick Lampson (D-TX 11th)
    * Tom Lantos (D-CA 12th)
    * Tom Latham (R-IA 5th)
    * Steve LaTourette (R-OH 14th)
    * Jerry Lewis (R-CA 40th)
    * Ron Lewis (R-KY 2nd)
    * John Linder (R-GA 11th)
    * Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ 2nd)
    * Nita Lowey (D-NY 18th)
    * Ken Lucas (D-KY 4th)
    * Frank Lucas (R-OK 3rd)
    * William Luther (R-MN 6th)
    * Steve Lynch (D-MA 9th)
    * Carolyn Maloney (D-NY 14th)
    * Donald Manzullo (R-IL 16th)
    * Ed Markey (D-MA 7th)
    * Frank Mascara (D-PA 20th)
    * Jim Matheson (D-UT 2nd)
    * Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY 4th)
    * Jim McCrery (R-LA 4th)
    * John McHugh (R-NY 23rd)
    * Scott McInnis (R-CO 3rd)
    * Mike McIntyre (D-NC 7th)
    * Howard McKeon (R-CA 25th)
    * Michael McNulty (D-NY 21th)
    * Martin T. Meehan (D-MA 5th)
    * John Mica (R-FL 7th)
    * Dan Miller (R-FL 13th)
    * Gary Miller (R-CA 41st)
    * Jeff Miller (R-FL 1st)
    * Dennis Moore (D-KS 3rd)
    * Jerry Moran (R-KS 1st)
    * John Murtha (D-PA 12th)
    * Sue Myrick (R-NC 9th)
    * George Nethercutt (R-WA 5th)
    * Bob Ney (R-OH 18th)
    * Anne Northup (R-KY 3rd)
    * Charlie Norwood (R-GA 10th)
    * Jim Nussle (R-IA 2nd)
    * Tom Osborne (R-NE 3rd)
    Plus 100 more not posted due to space limits on this server.


    77 Senators voted in favor of the resolution:

    * Wayne Allard (R-CO)
    * George Allen (R-VA)
    * Max Baucus (D-MT)
    * Evan Bayh (D-IN)
    * Bob Bennett (R-UT)
    * Joe Biden (D-DE)
    * Kit Bond (R-MO)
    * John Breaux (D-LA)
    * Sam Brownback (R-KS)
    * Jim Bunning (R-KY)
    * Conrad Burns (R-MT)
    * Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-CO)
    * Maria Cantwell (D-WA)
    * Jean Carnahan (D-MO)
    * Tom Carper (D-DE)
    * Max Cleland (D-GA)
    * Hillary Clinton (D-NY)
    * Thad Cochran (R-MS)
    * Susan Collins (R-ME)
    * Larry Craig (R-ID)
    * Mike Crapo (R-ID)
    * Tom Daschle (D-SD)
    * Mike DeWine (R-OH)
    * Christopher Dodd (D-CT)
    * Pete Domenici (R-NM)
    * Byron Dorgan (D-ND)
    * John Edwards (D-NC)
    * John Ensign (R-NV)
    * Mike Enzi (R-WY)
    * Dianne Feinstein (D-CA)
    * Peter Fitzgerald (R-IL)
    * Bill Frist (R-TN)
    * Phil Gramm (R-TX)
    * Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
    * Judd Gregg (R-NH)
    * Chuck Hagel (R-NE)
    * Tom Harkin (D-IA)
    * Orrin Hatch (R-UT)
    * Jesse Helms (R-NC)

    * Fritz Hollings (D-SC)
    * Tim Hutchinson (R-AR)
    * Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX)
    * James Inhofe (R-OK)
    * Tim Johnson(D-SD)
    * John Kerry (D-MA)
    * Herb Kohl (D-WI)
    * Jon Kyl (R-AZ)
    * Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
    * Joe Lieberman (D-CT)
    * Blanche Lincoln (D-AR)
    * Trent Lott (R-MS)
    * Richard Lugar (R-IN)
    * John McCain (R-AZ)
    * Mitch McConnell (R-KY)
    * Zell Miller (D-GA)
    * Frank Murkowski (R-AK)
    * Bill Nelson (D-FL)
    * Ben Nelson (D-NE)
    * Don Nickles (R-OK)
    * Harry Reid (D-NV)
    * Pat Roberts (R-KS)
    * Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)
    * Rick Santorum (R-PA)
    * Chuck Schumer (D-NY)
    * Jeff Sessions (R-AL)
    * Richard Shelby (R-AL)
    * Robert Smith (R-NH)
    * Gordon Smith (R-OR)
    * Olympia Snowe (R-ME)
    * Arlen Specter (R-PA)
    * Ted Stevens (R-AK)
    * Craig Thomas (R-WY)
    * Fred Thompson (R-TN)
    * Strom Thurmond (R-SC)
    * Robert Torricelli (D-NJ)
    * George Voinovich (R-OH)
    * John Warner (R-VA)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_...ates_Armed_Forces_Against_Iraq#Voted_in_favor
    //
     
  11. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Better ask the South Vietnamese, then the Cambodians.... Then the Laotians... Then the Burmese.... Then .....



    //
     
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Whether we pull out in 3 months, 6 months or 6 years.. we have created a mess by interfering with a very unstable mideast problem. our presence may be doing some stop gap things, however in the long run we did not do our homework on the religious/political issues that have effected and currently efffect all of the countries.

    Note the comparison to Viet Nam often, if we are so concerned as a nation of preventing genocide where are we on Darfur, Sudan, Rwanda and all of the so called "black" nations? To say this is the responsibility of the UN is just more doublespeak from the right. If we were really concerned about humanitarian efforts in the world we would do more there, however situational ethics dictates certain things and our involvement in Iraq to depose a violent dictator has not made that part of the country a better place. I am not convinced it will ever be a better place with our involvement. As much as I think Saddam should not be the leader of this country, he was able to keep the Sunni/Shiite violence in check. Where was the Moussad and CIA when we needed them a well planned coup or assassination may have accomplished the same outcome?? Did not like Saddam's methods, however we have created a mess there and despite all the talk, I do not see it getting real better soon.
     
  13. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    For the record, I am against the rush to war in Iraq. That's right, I was -- and remain -- against it. I even wrote a letter to Geo Bush pleading with him to use other methods to deal with the many problems that exist there. To me, going to war just plays into the hands of those who "love death more than life", as bin Laden is reported to have said; the wide-spread use of suicide attacks reveals this attitude, I would say.

    I have been arguing two things:

    1. That the U.S. must NOT just dis-engage from Iraq and the Middle East. What we did in Southeast Asia is sinful, leaving all those people to the communist world. I would say we also did a disservice to Korea by first aligning with Japan over Korea at the beginning of the 1900s, and then making a pact with Joseph Stalin to partition Korea in 1945. Terrible precedents that have back to haunt us in the worst way.

    2. We need to be much more circumspect and far less polarized in dealing with each other as political parties; we are one nation and we need to respect one another as one nation, indivisible under God. That means we should not unduly attack the president, whether it be a Clinton or a Bush or anyone else, particularly in public. I make no bones about being opposed to many of Clinton's practices -- his allowing hi-tech secrets to go to China during his watch is the worst thing he did, although his defilement of the White House with his sexual shenanigans was also unacceptable -- but I never went out crying for his ridicule or even impeachment.

    We are one nation, one family. We need to find a way to create the atmosphere where all feel loved and respected as sons and daughters of God. That's how I see it.


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  14. godef

    godef In the Starting Line-Up

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    Nothing that would have happened had we never invaded Iraq on false pretenses in the first place.
     
  15. godef

    godef In the Starting Line-Up

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    Why is it always left out that this vote took place under the false pretenses of immediate danger from Iraq by the president?

    So America does eventually pull out of Iraq, and it falls apart as you predict. The blame would lay strictly on the Bush administration.
     
  16. mr3putt

    mr3putt 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Better ask the South Vietnamese, then the Cambodians.... Then the Laotians... Then the Burmese.... Then .....

    We were not publically intervening in those countires during the Viet Nam war. Nixon denied any incursions into those countires. Military activities were covert and without sanction from Congress. You cannot throw the subsequent suffering of these people into one big soup.

    If you consider the use of unilateral military intervention by the US for the purpose of toppling tyranical regimes as proper foreign policy then you sir are in a distinct political minority.

    Answer my challenge on Iraq Foggy.
    UAE...Qatar..Jordan....cmon..... I'm waiting
     
  17. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    The point is NOT whether we are or are not publicly officially involved in other countries, ME or anywhere else. The point is about *STABILITY and NORMAL RELATIONS* with these Islamic nations.

    We, the U.S., must learn how to develop better, closer, more sincere relations with our Islamic brethren. We've separated for too long. Right now we've removed one bad apple in Saddam Hussein; Bush took it one step further than Reagan did when he bombed Moamar Khaddafi's home in Tripoli -- Bush actually got Saddam, arrested him and turned him over to an Iraqi court for trial.

    If we do not follow up in Iraq to ensure that the rule of law under a stable government is instituted, we are going to get a hellacious backlash from the militants who would make this into the biggest propaganda coup since the U.S. quit Vietnam. The different Islamist groups, al qaida, the radical Sunni, and the radical Shi'a, will all think the U.S. is powerless if we do not stay to establish a government that can stand on its own two feet. That's the problem.


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  18. mr3putt

    mr3putt 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    We are powerless to enforce democratic principles on a population that prefers to see their world in religious not secular terms. We wave the Constitution at them and they wave the Koran.

    You can quote Lincoln and Jefferson..and Chamberlain all you want...
    Iraq's aren't listening...you can't save those who are hell bent on anarchy.

    That's the problem
     
  19. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown In the Starting Line-Up

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    He is a bold LIAR isn't he??

    This is not a new strategy. For one, it is a tactic. But chucklehead america probably doesn tknow the difference either.
     
  20. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    No, there is a way. It's not just the "American way", either. There is a way to take the good from the Koranic tradition and put it together with the good of the Christian tradition. We are all children of Abraham. We need to find the way to get along *peacefully*.

    I say inter-marriage is the way. Hard to hate the grand-children, no matter who their father/mother is. I've seen it work in my family.


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