Best Offensive Weapons since 2007?

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Our OL is absolutely better than 2007, as are obviously, our RBs and TEs. Mostly the issue with the 2007 OL was Koppen and Kazcur were massive liabilities. WR obviously goes hugely to 2007.

I don't think we'll ever see as explosive an offense as 2007, but as a total package I'll gladly take last year or this years offense over it.

That being said, I think our rushing success was largely overstated. Most of the good gains came from the hurry up where Brady would have the defense on their heels. We couldn't just go out and beat teams down like the Niners/Seahawks could.

Yes, WR goes to 2007 but not hugely. Here is why, Moss was the greatest deep threat to ever play, and Wes the greatest slot receiver but..... Moss, could not go over the middle, which took some plays away and cost us big time in the Superbowl. Wes, though was legendary over the middle and underneath, could not help Moss stretch the field. Donte Stallworth and Gaffney didn't impose their will down the field like Moss did, and were smaller bodies. Dobson offers that deep threat ability, along with Mark Harrison if he makes the team. Josh Boyce and Danny Amendola can also take the top off of a defense, and Danny can do all of the same things that Wes could but better at this point in his career. And lets not forget Michael Jenkins, a savvy vet with size and route running. That's 3 guys that are at least 200 lbs and 6'3 minimum, that can both get deep AND go over the middle. That's also more redzone threats that would be an addition to Rob Gronkowski, Jake Ballard and Aaron Hernandez. Dobson may not be Moss, but he will be way more than half of what Lloyd was. I also think that from a talent standpoint, that Boyce has Stallworth beat, in addition to Gaffney. Amendola has both Stallworth and Gaffney beat as well, even Welker in my opinion. Now that Danny will be catching passes from Tom, everyone will see that I am right lol. And lets not forget, we have another slot guy in Julian Edelman, and little TJ Moe who have a great shot at making the team so there are a more wide variety of weapons and talent blend on this team.

Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Jabar Gaffney, Donte Stallworth, Ben Watson, Kevin Faulk

Danny Amendola (Wes's replacement, that won comparisons from both coaches and players across the league, and can get deep, he provides what Wes could and them some), Aaron Dobson (Fitzgerald and Moss comparisons, rated best WR out of Marshall since Randy Moss, great hands and physical presence), Mark Harrison (possibly making the team, best physical specimen at WR in the draft, a beast that can run and catch), Josh Boyce (comparisons to a faster David Patten, bigger but versatile), Julian Edelman (once called Welker's mini-me, slot weapon on the rise, trick play master), Michael Jenkins (good seasoned vet with length and possession), Shane Vereen (counts as a WR because so good at it, money at receiving the ball and deep balls), Aaron Hernandez lets not forget is also like an extra Receiver the X-Man, Lavelle Hawkins (comparisons to Deion Branch), TJ Moe (another young Wes that could make the team, good intangibles)... Yes, these guys are young, but learning from a legendary staff, have MORE JUICE, more athleticism, more potential and they are all intelligent coming from complex college systems which is something Bill Belicheck made sure he looked at this time, and these days a lot of WRs from college come right in and produce right away. Plus, Brian Daboll, the WR coach with us from the SB years is back and they also learn from the GOAT QB and possibly the GOAT Coach, AND excellent coordinator Josh McDaniels that was with the 2007 group. You have to take all of those factors into account.

 

[chevss454]

Ranking receivers.

When I first saw this article that ranks the top 150 receivers in NFL history in terms of personal % of total team yards, I immediately thought WW's percentage would be up toward the top. It seemed every other pass Brady threw was to WW. This article uses a receiver's top 6 years for its calculations to determine their rankings and gives a new look at the value of certain receivers. This was obviously a monumental undertaking for Football Perspective.

For instance, ranking 1st is Don Hutson of GB who played in the 1940's. This makes sense b/c he was the first dominant receiver in the NFL. With 49% of his team's total passing yards, Hutson is a full 10% ahead of #2, Jim Benton, who also played in the '40's for the Cleveland Rams. In fact, 3 of the top 5 & 4 of the top 10 played before 1960 and of those 4, only Hutson and Benton eclipsed the 1000 yd mark, each doing it once. Remarkable when you consider those were 10 game seasons.

Lance Alworth is the first modern era WR to show up. #3 with 37.5%. He was a brilliant receiver for the Air Coryell offenses of San Diego. Then comes Michael Irvin at #4 which I'd never have guessed, but remember, this ranking is based on his % of receiving yards of the team's total. Interesting, but I'm looking for Wes Welker.

Reading on, I spot Marvin Harrison at #13. Peyton was a lucky guy to have Harrison for so long. Jerry Rice is #14. I guess Joe Montana was also lucky to have Rice.

Reading on I see Harold Jackson who was great for the Pats in the late '70s. Paul Warfield, Tim Brown & Moss. Chad Ochocinco at #21? and Terrell Owens at #23? and Hines Ward? at #27 with 32.2% and still no sign of Wes Welker?? Roddy White for the years 2007-2012, the exact same years as WW, comes in at #31 w/ 31.8%.
Wes still isn't in sight.

Chris Carter, Joe Carter, Eric Moulds...Laveranues Coles. Torry Holt and Sonny Randle round out the first 50. Still no Welker.

The next 50 has players like Derrick Mason, Muhsin Muhammad, Isaac Bruce and the memorable Joe Horn. Our own Stanley Morgan (damn he was good) comes in at #78 with 29% just behind Calvin Johnson at #77. (Why is Calvin Johson so low on this list? Stafford? C'mon, man!)

Dwayne Bowe? 2007-2012, same years as WW, #93 with 28.1% of his team's receiving yards. Really?! Lee Evans of the Bills has 27.9% good for #96 overall.
That's the top 100 and still no Wes Welker. This is incredible.

Next 50, #s 101-150, I come to Wesley Walker at #110 and, glancing quickly, I misread and thought I had my guy. I won't ruin it for you by telling you the ending.

Conclusions
This was a good learning experience for me to put the loss of WW into better perspective and to draw some conclusions going forward.

1. Tom Brady threw the ball to receivers other than WW for more yards than I would have thought. Yes, Moss was there but Moss was only there for 1 great year with TB. Personally, I haven't given Brady enough credit for spreading the ball around.

2. Welker's % contribution to total yards of offense count for far less than I believed, especially when compared to other great (and some not so great) receivers. Welker was targeted very often as a receiver for the Pats but he wasn't Brady's binkie anywhere close to what I had thought previously. As much as I loved Welker on the Pats, he simply wasn't as important to our offense as I thought. In possession situations, yes, but overall, no. And don't even bring up scoring TDs.

3. Brady's favorite receiver doesn't come close to the dominant production of PManning's or Joe Montana's favorite receivers did. One more plus for Brady in the ongoing argument.

http://www.footballperspective.com/r...rds/#more-6766


I don't know if this receiving corps will be as good as the 2007 corps. BB doesn't know either. I do think there's some talent there and if they stay healthy they can be very good.

 

[lurker1965]

Reche Caldwell and an aging Troy Brown. oh, post-Moss.

 

[mgteich]

1) Do Welker's yards include only his time in New England?

2) In 2007, we had one the very best receivers of all time (#2 for most) and one the very best slot receivers of all time. They combines for 2800 yards. The "scrub" backup #3 and #4 receivers totaled over 1100 yards.

3) Welker's stats from 2007-2012 are unequalled.

4) The 2007 team was a play away from being considered the best team in nfl history.

5) Sure this year's receivers may be as good and as productive as those in 2007. Sure, maybe Dobson will be OROY and Boyce will be runner-up, and Amendola will be all-pro. And maybe not.

Ranking receivers.

When I first saw this article that ranks the top 150 receivers in NFL history in terms of personal % of total team yards, I immediately thought WW's percentage would be up toward the top. It seemed every other pass Brady threw was to WW. This article uses a receiver's top 6 years for its calculations to determine their rankings and gives a new look at the value of certain receivers. This was obviously a monumental undertaking for Football Perspective.

For instance, ranking 1st is Don Hutson of GB who played in the 1940's. This makes sense b/c he was the first dominant receiver in the NFL. With 49% of his team's total passing yards, Hutson is a full 10% ahead of #2, Jim Benton, who also played in the '40's for the Cleveland Rams. In fact, 3 of the top 5 & 4 of the top 10 played before 1960 and of those 4, only Hutson and Benton eclipsed the 1000 yd mark, each doing it once. Remarkable when you consider those were 10 game seasons.

Lance Alworth is the first modern era WR to show up. #3 with 37.5%. He was a brilliant receiver for the Air Coryell offenses of San Diego. Then comes Michael Irvin at #4 which I'd never have guessed, but remember, this ranking is based on his % of receiving yards of the team's total. Interesting, but I'm looking for Wes Welker.

Reading on, I spot Marvin Harrison at #13. Peyton was a lucky guy to have Harrison for so long. Jerry Rice is #14. I guess Joe Montana was also lucky to have Rice.

Reading on I see Harold Jackson who was great for the Pats in the late '70s. Paul Warfield, Tim Brown & Moss. Chad Ochocinco at #21? and Terrell Owens at #23? and Hines Ward? at #27 with 32.2% and still no sign of Wes Welker?? Roddy White for the years 2007-2012, the exact same years as WW, comes in at #31 w/ 31.8%.
Wes still isn't in sight.

Chris Carter, Joe Carter, Eric Moulds...Laveranues Coles. Torry Holt and Sonny Randle round out the first 50. Still no Welker.

The next 50 has players like Derrick Mason, Muhsin Muhammad, Isaac Bruce and the memorable Joe Horn. Our own Stanley Morgan (damn he was good) comes in at #78 with 29% just behind Calvin Johnson at #77. (Why is Calvin Johson so low on this list? Stafford? C'mon, man!)

Dwayne Bowe? 2007-2012, same years as WW, #93 with 28.1% of his team's receiving yards. Really?! Lee Evans of the Bills has 27.9% good for #96 overall.
That's the top 100 and still no Wes Welker. This is incredible.

Next 50, #s 101-150, I come to Wesley Walker at #110 and, glancing quickly, I misread and thought I had my guy. I won't ruin it for you by telling you the ending.

Conclusions
This was a good learning experience for me to put the loss of WW into better perspective and to draw some conclusions going forward.

1. Tom Brady threw the ball to receivers other than WW for more yards than I would have thought. Yes, Moss was there but Moss was only there for 1 great year with TB. Personally, I haven't given Brady enough credit for spreading the ball around.

2. Welker's % contribution to total yards of offense count for far less than I believed, especially when compared to other great (and some not so great) receivers. Welker was targeted very often as a receiver for the Pats but he wasn't Brady's binkie anywhere close to what I had thought previously. As much as I loved Welker on the Pats, he simply wasn't as important to our offense as I thought. In possession situations, yes, but overall, no. And don't even bring up scoring TDs.

3. Brady's favorite receiver doesn't come close to the dominant production of PManning's or Joe Montana's favorite receivers did. One more plus for Brady in the ongoing argument.

http://www.footballperspective.com/r...rds/#more-6766


I don't know if this receiving corps will be as good as the 2007 corps. BB doesn't know either. I do think there's some talent there and if they stay healthy they can be very good.

 

[tonyto3690]

Yes, WR goes to 2007 but not hugely. Here is why, Moss was the greatest deep threat to ever play, and Wes the greatest slot receiver but..... Moss, could not go over the middle, which took some plays away and cost us big time in the Superbowl. Wes, though was legendary over the middle and underneath, could not help Moss stretch the field. Donte Stallworth and Gaffney didn't impose their will down the field like Moss did, and were smaller bodies. Dobson offers that deep threat ability, along with Mark Harrison if he makes the team. Josh Boyce and Danny Amendola can also take the top off of a defense, and Danny can do all of the same things that Wes could but better at this point in his career. And lets not forget Michael Jenkins, a savvy vet with size and route running. That's 3 guys that are at least 200 lbs and 6'3 minimum, that can both get deep AND go over the middle. That's also more redzone threats that would be an addition to Rob Gronkowski, Jake Ballard and Aaron Hernandez. Dobson may not be Moss, but he will be way more than half of what Lloyd was. I also think that from a talent standpoint, that Boyce has Stallworth beat, in addition to Gaffney. Amendola has both Stallworth and Gaffney beat as well, even Welker in my opinion. Now that Danny will be catching passes from Tom, everyone will see that I am right lol. And lets not forget, we have another slot guy in Julian Edelman, and little TJ Moe who have a great shot at making the team so there are a more wide variety of weapons and talent blend on this team.

Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Jabar Gaffney, Donte Stallworth, Ben Watson, Kevin Faulk

Danny Amendola (Wes's replacement, that won comparisons from both coaches and players across the league, and can get deep, he provides what Wes could and them some), Aaron Dobson (Fitzgerald and Moss comparisons, rated best WR out of Marshall since Randy Moss, great hands and physical presence), Mark Harrison (possibly making the team, best physical specimen at WR in the draft, a beast that can run and catch), Josh Boyce (comparisons to a faster David Patten, bigger but versatile), Julian Edelman (once called Welker's mini-me, slot weapon on the rise, trick play master), Michael Jenkins (good seasoned vet with length and possession), Shane Vereen (counts as a WR because so good at it, money at receiving the ball and deep balls), Aaron Hernandez lets not forget is also like an extra Receiver the X-Man, Lavelle Hawkins (comparisons to Deion Branch), TJ Moe (another young Wes that could make the team, good intangibles)... Yes, these guys are young, but learning from a legendary staff, have MORE JUICE, more athleticism, more potential and they are all intelligent coming from complex college systems which is something Bill Belicheck made sure he looked at this time, and these days a lot of WRs from college come right in and produce right away. Plus, Brian Daboll, the WR coach with us from the SB years is back and they also learn from the GOAT QB and possibly the GOAT Coach, AND excellent coordinator Josh McDaniels that was with the 2007 group. You have to take all of those factors into account.

You can be as blindly optimistic as you want, but any of our top 4 receivers that year would be starting for us this year. On top of that, your ridiculous attempts at diminishing Moss and Welker's performance that year is hilariously wrong. Moss and Welker were both All Pros, and Moss, not Brady, was considered by some the best player in the entire NFL that year.

In fact, Stallworth/Gaffney would have been a better 1-2 combo than any 1-2 combo we're capable of throwing out there this year. Adding two All Pros who played at a HOF level just makes it a laughably stupid comparison.


Sorry, the 2007 wideouts don't just blow the 2012 wideouts out of the water, they nuke the entire pond and take a dump on the gravesite.

 

[PatsFan37]

I think the 2012 season was the building year for the secondary. Pieces like Tavon and Alphonzo and Taquib were found. Season 2013 is the harvest year. The secondary is deep and talented. The obvious ST additions, Ebner and Cole, are going to have to fight for jobs as potential regular defenders, also excel at ST. Players like Logan Ryan, Duran Hammond Kyle Arrington and Alphonzo Dennard are very good ST players as well.

Didn't want to sidetrack the thread with my postscript. But hey, I started hijacking it. So shoot me!

Thought about saying something similar to what you did, but I'm not sure the chemistry and skills will mesh just yet. It has the potential, though, and I like the infusion of the super-serious, dedicated Rutgers kids. They're all about Team. Not sure this is the year. Maybe. I hope so. But I do believe after so many mis-hits and misfits they're finally building the core of a great secondary for years to come.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

You can be as blindly optimistic as you want, but any of our top 4 receivers that year would be starting for us this year. On top of that, your ridiculous attempts at diminishing Moss and Welker's performance that year is hilariously wrong. Moss and Welker were both All Pros, and Moss, not Brady, was considered by some the best player in the entire NFL that year.

In fact, Stallworth/Gaffney would have been a better 1-2 combo than any 1-2 combo we're capable of throwing out there this year. Adding two All Pros who played at a HOF level just makes it a laughably stupid comparison.


Sorry, the 2007 wideouts don't just blow the 2012 wideouts out of the water, they nuke the entire pond and take a dump on the gravesite.

Stallworth and Gaffney better than anybody we're capable of throwing to this year? Seriously? I think Stallworth's best year was that year and I think that Gaffney played very well that year too but from a talent level standpoint, Danny Amendola is a better receiver than both players so that's already somebody that we're capable of throwing to that's better, secondly talent wise if you are talking size, athleticism, physicality, hands and etc. than both Aaron Dobson and Josh Boyce have them beat there. And their upside alone offers more than any receiver we've seen in NE. Give these kids a break, and give them a chance. I just like thinking bigger, better and optimistic and I feel right about this year. Plus, we got a steal in Mark Harrison this year, who by many wasn't even suppose to last that long in the draft, all because of a broken foot and a few off field issues? This guy was named the best physical specimen at his position in the entire draft. So yes, Moss and Welker were great, and taking nothing away from that but Branch, Brown, Givens and Patten despite the defense because we had a top defense in 2007, did we not? (Samuel, Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, Adalius, Colvin, Seymour, etc.) got it done on offense when we needed them the most because they offered what WE NEEDED as far as dimensions at receiver that simply Moss and Welker alone, still yet didn't provide for us in the Superbowl. Everybody knew to take Moss away deep and take Welker away underneath and boom.. you got us.. but not any more.

 

[tonyto3690]

Stallworth and Gaffney better than anybody we're capable of throwing to this year? Seriously? I think Stallworth's best year was that year and I think that Gaffney played very well that year too but from a talent level standpoint, Danny Amendola is a better receiver than both players so that's already somebody that we're capable of throwing to that's better, secondly talent wise if you are talking size, athleticism, physicality, hands and etc. than both Aaron Dobson and Josh Boyce have them beat there. And their upside alone offers more than any receiver we've seen in NE. Give these kids a break, and give them a chance. I just like thinking bigger, better and optimistic and I feel right about this year. Plus, we got a steal in Mark Harrison this year, who by many wasn't even suppose to last that long in the draft, all because of a broken foot and a few off field issues? This guy was named the best physical specimen at his position in the entire draft. So yes, Moss and Welker were great, and taking nothing away from that but Branch, Brown, Givens and Patten despite the defense because we had a top defense in 2007, did we not? (Samuel, Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, Adalius, Colvin, Seymour, etc.) got it done on offense when we needed them the most because they offered what WE NEEDED as far as dimensions at receiver that simply Moss and Welker alone, still yet didn't provide for us in the Superbowl. Everybody knew to take Moss away deep and take Welker away underneath and boom.. you got us.. but not any more.

You are overrating everyone on the current roster and underrating the past players.

Sorry, even first round receivers have an extremely high bust rate. Middle round WRs can't be count on to match what seasoned veterans did. The fact you bring up Harrison just shows how much you're overrating.

Amendola has seasons of 326, 689, 45, and 666 yards. Gaffney has surpassed Amendola's career highs three times and has averaged roughly 500 yards a year for 11 years. Amendola has done it twice. Stallworth had surpassed Amendolas career highs four times.

Your optimism for the rookies is nice, but even if this were their second/third years, it's hard to imagine them being much more than Stallworth/Gaffney unless we hit the jackpot ala Hernandez/Gronk- which of course is a very very very long shot.

Again, this isn't even taking into account Welker and Moss who are so much better than anyone we'll have this year, even if it was them + a bunch of mediocre scrubs, I'd rather have that group.


Welker and Moss weren't nearly as one dimensional as you seem to think. Nor were they as easy to guard. Moss got open for some gimme touchdowns in the SB that Brady just flat out missed on and/or couldn't get him the ball as Koppen was thrown on him. Welker had IIRC 12 catches for 120 yards or something.

And even if everything you said was true, this belief that Dobson/Boyce are somehow better receivers than two HOF wideouts in their prime is laughably stupid. Just like, how can you possibly even begin to believe what you're saying? Even if Welker/Moss were completely one dimensional and easy to guard as you believe in your la la world, Dobson and Boyce are just as likely to never score a TD in the NFL as they are to become half the players that Welker and Moss were.

 

[Ozymandias]

You can be as blindly optimistic as you want, but any of our top 4 receivers that year would be starting for us this year. On top of that, your ridiculous attempts at diminishing Moss and Welker's performance that year is hilariously wrong. Moss and Welker were both All Pros, and Moss, not Brady, was considered by some the best player in the entire NFL that year.

In fact, Stallworth/Gaffney would have been a better 1-2 combo than any 1-2 combo we're capable of throwing out there this year. Adding two All Pros who played at a HOF level just makes it a laughably stupid comparison.


Sorry, the 2007 wideouts don't just blow the 2012 wideouts out of the water, they nuke the entire pond and take a dump on the gravesite.

The problem with this thought process is that it's done all in hindsight. Just for a second, think about what the feeling was before the 2007 offense exploded unto the scene. There were lots of questions pending about how Moss would gel in a no nonsense environment and would he be a good teammate, and whether Randy would play to his capabilities without dogging it like he did in Oakland and produce with a rigid coaching staff and QB like Tom. Then there was Welker, who for many was an unknown. Other than his big games against the Patriots Wes wasn't a known commodity in the NFL and the feeling was that the Patriots gave up too much in their acquisition of him. Lastly, there was Stallworth, who up until that point failed to live up to his lofty expectations as a first rounder with great physical abilities. Would he ever amount to anything beyond just a one-trick pony were questions with him as well.

The point being made here is that even the 2007 offense had A LOT of question marks about it prior to performing on the field. Once the fireworks started most of those questions were answered resoundingly. 2013 is no different in that regard. Each individual has a lot of questions abound and how they play with dictate how these questions are answered.

As for diminishing Moss, I think some people seemingly forget that when Randy came to New England he was already on the decline physically. He wasn't the same player that he was during his Vikings' days, speed wise at least. He was already starting to lose a step or two (even though he could still get 5 or more yards of separation on just about any DB at that time), he overcame with a lot of experience and veteran savvy through his 10 seasons in the league. So while he wasn't the same Moss on a physical spectrum, he was far ahead in terms of his football knowledge that he overachieved greatly here.

So while it's fair he say he was one of the best players in 2007 in the entire league, part of that was because he played with Tom. It's funny how a great QB always makes WRs looked better than they may be. By the same token had Moss stayed in Oakland for 2007 I'm fairly certain no one would call him the best player in the league with the way things were going there. That's not to say that Tom would've thrown 50 touchdown passes that season without Randy (he wouldn't have) but Moss' career was resurrected when he came to the Patriots precisely because he was playing with Brady and not JAGs like Andrew Walter, Aaron Brooks, Kerry Collins, Marques Tuiasosopo, etc.

It remains to be seen how the 2013 squad will do, but questioning whether they can do it doesn't mean that they can't do it. 2007 already proved that.

 

[tonyto3690]

The problem with this thought process is that it's done all in hindsight. Just for a second, think about what the feeling was before the 2007 offense exploded unto the scene. There were lots of questions pending about how Moss would gel in a no nonsense environment and would he be a good teammate, and whether Randy would play to his capabilities without dogging it like he did in Oakland and produce with a rigid coaching staff and QB like Tom. Then there was Welker, who for many was an unknown. Other than his big games against the Patriots Wes wasn't a known commodity in the NFL and the feeling was that the Patriots gave up too much in their acquisition of him. Lastly, there was Stallworth, who up until that point failed to live up to his lofty expectations as a first rounder with great physical abilities. Would he ever amount to anything beyond just a one-trick pony were questions with him as well.

The point being made here is that even the 2007 offense had A LOT of question marks about it prior to performing on the field. Once the fireworks started most of those questions were answered resoundingly. 2013 is no different in that regard. Each individual has a lot of questions abound and how they play with dictate how these questions are answered.

As for diminishing Moss, I think some people seemingly forget that when Randy came to New England he was already on the decline physically. He wasn't the same player that he was during his Vikings' days, speed wise at least. He was already starting to lose a step or two (even though he could still get 5 or more yards of separation on just about any DB at that time), he overcame with a lot of experience and veteran savvy through his 10 seasons in the league. So while he wasn't the same Moss on a physical spectrum, he was far ahead in terms of his football knowledge that he overachieved greatly here.

So while it's fair he say he was one of the best players in 2007 in the entire league, part of that was because he played with Tom. It's funny how a great QB always makes WRs looked better than they may be. By the same token had Moss stayed in Oakland for 2007 I'm fairly certain no one would call him the best player in the league with the way things were going there. That's not to say that Tom would've thrown 50 touchdown passes that season without Randy (he wouldn't have) but Moss' career was resurrected when he came to the Patriots precisely because he was playing with Brady and not JAGs like Andrew Walter, Aaron Brooks, Kerry Collins, Marques Tuiasosopo, etc.

It remains to be seen how the 2013 squad will do, but questioning whether they can do it doesn't mean that they can't do it. 2007 already proved that.

No, the point being made is that this years WR group will be as good as the 2007 WR group (he seems to even imply that it will be even better). They. wont. be. even. close.

There is a huge difference between Moss- a once in a lifetime talent who had underachieved on a horrible Raiders team, and proven he can dominate in the NFL and a NFL rookie out of a division two football team.

I mean, by that logic, you can argue that our defense this year will be the GOAT because Collins can be the second coming of LT and Hightower can turn into Ray Lewis and Dennard can turn into Neon Deion and so on and so on. A lot of things theoretically COULD happen. Every other elite QB in the NFL could spontaneously erupt in flame and we'd have an easy road to a SB. But chances are none of those things will happen and it's a one in a billion chance Dobson/Boyce come even miles within Welker and Moss, especially in their rookie seasons.

 

[Ozymandias]

No, the point being made is that this years WR group will be as good as the 2007 WR group (he seems to even imply that it will be even better). They. wont. be. even. close.

The thing is, you don't know what the future holds so it's just as same to suggest they won't be even close as it is to suggest they will equal or eclipse 2007. The likeliest outcome is probably somewhere in between.

 

[Se7eN]

Danny Amendola can also take the top off of a defense, and Danny can do all of the same things that Wes could but better at this point in his career.

Danny Amendola can get deep but I don't think they'd be doing too many streaks with him

and little TJ Moe who have a great shot at making the team so there are a more wide variety of weapons and talent blend on this team.

I doubt TJ Moe has any chance of making the team at this point. He's promising, but with Amendola in a long term contract and Edelman being a lock behind him in the slot due to his punt return ability and versatility (WR that does a lot of screens etc, PR, he played LB and he even played CB in a pinch when our secondary was a mess) Heck, they were even "phasing" Welker out and having Edelman starting in favor of him until he got injured because they thought he was that good.

Bottom line, due to the personnel we currently have, I think that Moe will go to practice squad and we will probably end up trading him after making him look good




At this point I view the WR locks on the depth chart as Amendola, Dobson, Boyce, Edelman, Slater

TJ Moe will go to practice squad probably

Mark Harrison will either join him or go on PUP - Also I don't think he can actually be commented upon as stretching the field etc since his college production wasn't that great despite his great measurables.

Then it comes down to Lavelle Hawkins, Donald Jones and Michael Jenkins for the 6th spot on the depth chart. I'd say despite his comparisons to Deion Branch, Lavelle Hawkins won't make the team due to simply not "clicking" on his routes - I am reminded of an image someone posted on a thread about him where he complained about the titans playbook being "complicated for no reason". I think it is a coin toss between Jones and Jenkins though, Jenkins is taller and more physical and brings the veteran presence to the corps that is absent currently but Jones is faster. We shall see.

 

[tonyto3690]

The thing is, you don't know what the future holds so it's just as same to suggest they won't be even close as it is to suggest they will equal or eclipse 2007. The likeliest outcome is probably somewhere in between.

No it's not, are you freaking kidding me. We have a career hospital case, two rookies, a solid #2/STs ace, and a career mediocre #4 as our top WR options.

You're comparing those guys against two HOFers in their primes, and two high quality #2s.

It will not even be close. And even if it was in the same stratosphere (which it's not), it doesn't matter because they will never get those numbers with our current TE driven system along with our higher commitment to running the ball instead of just passing it everydown out of a spread shotgun.

 

[mgteich]

We all might consider that Bryce might not be ready for prime time and Edelman may be considered a slot backup and punter. In that case, we might need TWO of Jenkins, Jones and Hawkins. Alternatively, if Boyce and Edelman are both looking good and seem ready to produce, we might need none of the three.

Danny Amendola can get deep but I don't think they'd be doing too many streaks with him



I doubt TJ Moe has any chance of making the team at this point. He's promising, but with Amendola in a long term contract and Edelman being a lock behind him in the slot due to his punt return ability and versatility (WR that does a lot of screens etc, PR, he played LB and he even played CB in a pinch when our secondary was a mess) Heck, they were even "phasing" Welker out and having Edelman starting in favor of him until he got injured because they thought he was that good.

Bottom line, due to the personnel we currently have, I think that Moe will go to practice squad and we will probably end up trading him after making him look good




At this point I view the WR locks on the depth chart as Amendola, Dobson, Boyce, Edelman, Slater

TJ Moe will go to practice squad probably

Mark Harrison will either join him or go on PUP - Also I don't think he can actually be commented upon as stretching the field etc since his college production wasn't that great despite his great measurables.

Then it comes down to Lavelle Hawkins, Donald Jones and Michael Jenkins for the 6th spot on the depth chart. I'd say despite his comparisons to Deion Branch, Lavelle Hawkins won't make the team due to simply not "clicking" on his routes - I am reminded of an image someone posted on a thread about him where he complained about the titans playbook being "complicated for no reason". I think it is a coin toss between Jones and Jenkins though, Jenkins is taller and more physical and brings the veteran presence to the corps that is absent currently but Jones is faster. We shall see.

 

[MoneyFX]

If the two rookies are able to get in sync with Brady and the young running backs continue to improve, no doubt this could be the most weapons Brady has had. I don't think the WRs will ever be as productive as 2007, but there are much more options at the other positions than what was there in 2007.

Holding my judgement on the WRs, comparing both units, the RBs are deeper and better, the TEs are also much better too.

The potential is there for the WRs, it's hard to tell how good they can be in this offense yet. It's only May.

 

[rookBoston]

Danny Amendola (Wes's replacement, that won comparisons from both coaches and players across the league, and can get deep, he provides what Wes could and them some), Aaron Dobson (Fitzgerald and Moss comparisons, rated best WR out of Marshall since Randy Moss, great hands and physical presence), Mark Harrison (possibly making the team, best physical specimen at WR in the draft, a beast that can run and catch), Josh Boyce (comparisons to a faster David Patten, bigger but versatile), Julian Edelman (once called Welker's mini-me, slot weapon on the rise, trick play master), Michael Jenkins (good seasoned vet with length and possession), Shane Vereen (counts as a WR because so good at it, money at receiving the ball and deep balls), Aaron Hernandez lets not forget is also like an extra Receiver the X-Man, Lavelle Hawkins (comparisons to Deion Branch), TJ Moe (another young Wes that could make the team, good intangibles)... Yes, these guys are young, but learning from a legendary staff, have MORE JUICE, more athleticism, more potential and they are all intelligent coming from complex college systems which is something Bill Belicheck made sure he looked at this time, and these days a lot of WRs from college come right in and produce right away. Plus, Brian Daboll, the WR coach with us from the SB years is back and they also learn from the GOAT QB and possibly the GOAT Coach, AND excellent coordinator Josh McDaniels that was with the 2007 group. You have to take all of those factors into account.

Wow. That's like 10 or 12 glasses half full, all side by side. Impressive.

Let's see them put it together on the field. You're right that at least the pantry isn't empty. But this isn't the Dream Team of the NFL. It's a bunch of pretty credible and athletic guys, most of whom don't know the system.

It's nice being optimistic, but there is a point where it gets a little extreme. Besides, half the guys you're really excited about wont even make the roster.

 

[VOODOOZF]

This is one of the most absurd posts I have ever read. Not only will this WR corp not be in the same league as the 2007 team, they will be among the worst WR groups in the NFL as a recent article in USA Today pointed out.

It is the absolute height of Kool Aid drinking to suggest that an unproven rookie (who most feel was somewhat of a reach in the second round) is going to be on par with Randy Moss who is arguably the greatest downfield threat of all time.

As far as Welker goes I don't get how anyone can expect Amendola to come in and replace Welker who is arguably the greatest slot WR of all time. While Amendola has been a solid option during the rare occasions he has been healthy, he is simply not as good as Welker...To add insult to injury Welker is now playing with Peyton Manning in the most potent offense in the AFC+ will come back to haunt the Pat's in the playoffs.

The Patriots WR corp is not as good as it was in 2012 never mind 2007. Add to this the fact that Gronkowski and Hernandez are HUGE question marks going into the season and most importantly Tom Brady is six years older and quite frankly not as good as he was in 2007.

The loss of Welker and Brady's advancing years will be felt and the offense will struggle to be as good as it was in 2012. To say they will be be as good as the historic 16-0 2007 team is nothing short of being a fanboy.

Look, I love the Patriots as much as anyone, but let's try and be at least a little objective in our analysis of the team.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

This is one of the most absurd posts I have ever read. Not only will this WR corp not be in the same league as the 2007 team, they will be among the worst WR groups in the NFL as a recent article in USA Today pointed out.

It is the absolute height of Kool Aid drinking to suggest that an unproven rookie (who most feel was somewhat of a reach in the second round) is going to be on par with Randy Moss who is arguably the greatest downfield threat of all time.

As far as Welker goes I don't get how anyone can expect Amendola to come in and replace Welker who is arguably the greatest slot WR of all time. While Amendola has been a solid option during the rare occasions he has been healthy, he is simply not as good as Welker...To add insult to injury Welker is now playing with Peyton Manning in the most potent offense in the AFC+ will come back to haunt the Pat's in the playoffs.

The Patriots WR corp is not as good as it was in 2012 never mind 2007. Add to this the fact that Gronkowski and Hernandez are HUGE question marks going into the season and most importantly Tom Brady is six years older and quite frankly not as good as he was in 2007.

The loss of Welker and Brady's advancing years will be felt and the offense will struggle to be as good as it was in 2012. To say they will be be as good as the historic 16-0 2007 team is nothing short of being a fanboy.

Look, I love the Patriots as much as anyone, but let's try and be at least a little objective in our analysis of the team.

This.

The op is wishful thinking, banking on a LOT OF THINGS to go right. Amendola has only played one full season in his 5-6 year career, so we gotta hope he's good. I actually believe at his peak, he's better than Welker, but again, the durability is an issue.

Micahel Jenkins got cut for a reason, chances are the Pats could still cut him to. There's no guarantee the rookie receivers will be great given the track record of the Pats drafting receivers.

 

[Joker]

This.

The op is wishful thinking, banking on a LOT OF THINGS to go right. Amendola has only played one full season in his 5-6 year careerAmendola has played FOUR seasons in the NFL..14 out of 16 games his rookie year, all 16 his second year.2011 he played one game and suffered a freak injury ending his season...last year he played 11 games. , so we gotta hope he's good.good at what? catching passes???he's proven that already I actually believe at his peak, he's better than Welker, but again, the durability is an issue.only one way to find out..this will be answered with FACTUAL evidence this season, not proclaimed as "facts" in May.

Micahel Jenkins got cut for a reason, chances are the Pats could still cut him to. There's no guarantee the rookie receivers will be great given the track record of the Pats drafting receivers.... sophistry much?

I'm looking forward to THIS YEAR'S Patriot season...if you and the rest of the negative Norman's are already convinced everything is "all bad!!!!!" perhaps you should FOLLOW your hearts and find a team that meets YOUR strict "everything must be perfect immediately!!!!" standards.

 

[Bruins29]

I'm looking forward to THIS YEAR'S Patriot season...if you and the rest of the negative Norman's are already convinced everything is "all bad!!!!!" perhaps you should FOLLOW your hearts and find a team that meets YOUR strict "everything must be perfect immediately!!!!" standards.

Joker, its bad enough that they are negative or even skeptical which is fine. But may of these guys just start spouting off completely false stats. Its like a board full of people who just like rumors. DA has gone from injury prone to only playing one season now?

How could someone come on a forum like this and claim DA played one season when his stats are so easy to find? Does anyone who posts here care at all about maintaining some sort of integrity for the site. Or is it lets just jump o whatever sounds cool.

Its becoming the National Inquirer on here. Its really becoming comical. Stop spouting BS and start getting facts straight.