Best Defense in the AFCE?

[BradyFTW!]

Well let's break it down a bit further.

The Jets, Patriots and Dolphins are all using 3-3 defenses, so they should be easy to compare.

DE
NT
OLB
ILB
S
CB

and general backup depth:

Let's get a clear breakdown of what people are basing their thinking upon.

Pats win both DE and NT by a mile. Not even close. Jenkins is probably better than Wilfork when healthy, but they have no depth at all behind him, which they might be able to get away with if the guy had any cartilage in his knees and didn't have a history of breaking down over the course of the season. I'd put Jets second at NT and DE (both are pretty weak at DE), and Dolphins third in both.

OLB: Dolphins are the clear #1, and I'm honestly not sure if Pats or Jets are #2. Both have 1 good guy with some concerns (Thomas coming off of injury, Pace coming off of roids), and some unproven talent. I'll go ahead and give the Jets the #2 nod just so that nobody can accuse me of being a homer.

ILB: Pats have the best ILB in the division in Mayo, but depth is an obvious worry. For now I'd go Jets > Pats/Dolphins (neither ILB crew impresses me)

S: Jets > Pats > Dolphins. Meriweather was great at the end of last year, Sanders is solid, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Chung contributing early. The Jets are definitely #1 in this one by a significant margin.

CB: Jets are #1, although I'm not even close to sold on Lito Sheppard. Revis is the best CB in the division by a long shot though, so this has gotta go to them. Between the Pats and the Dolphins, that one's tougher. I trust Will Allen more than I trust any of the Pats' corners, but the Pats have superior young talent that's likely to be ready to make the leap. Just for the hell of it, I'll put Dolphins > Pats.

 

[eagle eye]

Great post there BradyFTW,

As it stands right now I'm with you in every department. And overall I would rank the Jets at the top right now but the only reason is the amount of Patriots that have to prove themselves as proficient starters for us.

I'm very hopeful though almost expecting to see Shawn Crable come in and shock us all. I can't see Pierre Woods being a starter and I don't see any depth as you say. I'm not too worried about ILB with Mayo a certain star for many years to come, Guyton looked like a guy that might be up to it this season, and Paris Lenon was a nice pickup and of course we still have Tedy.
Our secodary looks like it has to work out unless all them injury prone guys go down.

 

[Garbanza]

All the teams have a decent defense and they all have some glaring holes.

Miami - pretty solid last year. I am still suspect on their D-line and LB's but they were very good stopping the run last year. Glaring hole is the rookie corners.

NE - solid D-line as usual. Need more from Big Sey this year. Can Bruschi play at a high level for another year. OLB replacing Vrabel is suspect. Corners and Safeties should be an upgrade from last year.

Jets - Solid D-line. Jenkins was huge for them. OLB's are beasts. MLB's are suspect but get a bunch of protection with Jenkins in there. Revis and Rhodes are studs. Leonard will probably help.

Bills - I don't really care.

If Pats stay healthy I give them a slight edge over the Jests.

Bruschi has played at a high level the past two years? Really?

Pats do not have a suitable replacement for Vrable. Woods is a JAG at best and Tully Banta-Cain is not even a JAG. Bruschi is a spot player with dimished skills. The D-Line has to play out of their minds this year. I agree that the secondary will be improved....although safety will be a question mark. Sanders isn't very good. Merriweather improved last year. I'm hoping Chung is everything the Patriots hope he can be.

The Pats defense will be better than last year....just a hunch. But I think we all know that this team is going to be an offense first team.

 

[Ring 6]

Bruschi has played at a high level the past two years? Really?

Pats do not have a suitable replacement for Vrable. Woods is a JAG at best and Tully Banta-Cain is not even a JAG. Bruschi is a spot player with dimished skills. The D-Line has to play out of their minds this year. I agree that the secondary will be improved....although safety will be a question mark. Sanders isn't very good. Merriweather improved last year. I'm hoping Chung is everything the Patriots hope he can be.

The Pats defense will be better than last year....just a hunch. But I think we all know that this team is going to be an offense first team.

The Patriot defense was ranked 8th in the NFL in points allowed last year.
Bruschi was part of that.
Seau, Colvin were part of that. Thomas missed half the season and Woods missed half of the rest of it.
You may not see a suitable replacement for Vrabel, but frankly his play had diminsihed so we aren't replacing Mike Vrabel of 2005 we are replacing Mike Vrabel of 2008, which is very different.
It would appear BB thinks Woods is more than a jag. I cannot remember the last player that came in worked his way up as a reserve, proved himself enough to earn a starting job for BB that was a dud, or even a "JAG at best".
Again, you and I may disagree about Sanders, but I'll go with BBs opinion, which does not say he 'isnt very good'.
If you say the defense will be better and we were 8th in points allowed I'd say we dont need to be an offense first team.

Somehow, people around here think because all 11 starters arent all pro level and/or starting 5 years for us, the 8th best scoring D is now the 1980s Chargers.

 

[Ring 6]

Pats win both DE and NT by a mile. Not even close. Jenkins is probably better than Wilfork when healthy, but they have no depth at all behind him, which they might be able to get away with if the guy had any cartilage in his knees and didn't have a history of breaking down over the course of the season. I'd put Jets second at NT and DE (both are pretty weak at DE), and Dolphins third in both.

OLB: Dolphins are the clear #1, and I'm honestly not sure if Pats or Jets are #2. Both have 1 good guy with some concerns (Thomas coming off of injury, Pace coming off of roids), and some unproven talent. I'll go ahead and give the Jets the #2 nod just so that nobody can accuse me of being a homer.

ILB: Pats have the best ILB in the division in Mayo, but depth is an obvious worry. For now I'd go Jets > Pats/Dolphins (neither ILB crew impresses me)

S: Jets > Pats > Dolphins. Meriweather was great at the end of last year, Sanders is solid, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Chung contributing early. The Jets are definitely #1 in this one by a significant margin.

CB: Jets are #1, although I'm not even close to sold on Lito Sheppard. Revis is the best CB in the division by a long shot though, so this has gotta go to them. Between the Pats and the Dolphins, that one's tougher. I trust Will Allen more than I trust any of the Pats' corners, but the Pats have superior young talent that's likely to be ready to make the leap. Just for the hell of it, I'll put Dolphins > Pats.

AFCE teams ranked 8th, 9th, 14th and 18th last year.
For some reason this thread seems to think the only one of the 4 that was below average is the best one. Oh, and the 8th ranked was the one with the best coaching.

 

[Ring 6]

lol @ the Pats in the lead. Pats homers out in full force I see.

On paper the Jets have the better defense.

I do think the Pats are going to have a solid D this year. I'm excited to see what their secondary can do.

Jets were 18th in points allowed last year, in other words, BELOW AVERAGE.
Pats were 8th, in other words, top 25%.
(Yardage was 10th/16th in favor of Pats)
Explain how saying the defense that played better is better is homerism.

 

[BradyFTW!]

AFCE teams ranked 8th, 9th, 14th and 18th last year.
For some reason this thread seems to think the only one of the 4 that was below average is the best one. Oh, and the 8th ranked was the one with the best coaching.

Over the course of the offseason, the Jets and Pats both made significant overhauls to their defenses. How they finished last year is a relevant starting point, but it would be pretty lazy to base your opinion on that.

The Jets improved their defense more than anyone else did this offseason. Leonhard and Scott are both quality, starter-caliber players. Sheppard might be, although, as my post indicated, I'm not at all sold on him. Add in the fact that their points-against ranking was due at least in part to a QB that threw 22 INTs, constantly putting them in bad positions (who is now gone), and I think that it's pretty clear that they'll be much-improved. I still think that the Pats are better overall, though. Jets don't have enough talent or depth on the defensive line, and that's going to kill them.

 

[Ring 6]

Over the course of the offseason, the Jets and Pats both made significant overhauls to their defenses. How they finished last year is a relevant starting point, but it would be pretty lazy to base your opinion on that.

The Jets improved their defense more than anyone else did this offseason. Leonhard and Scott are both quality, starter-caliber players. Sheppard might be, although, as my post indicated, I'm not at all sold on him. Add in the fact that their points-against ranking was due at least in part to a QB that threw 22 INTs, constantly putting them in bad positions (who is now gone), and I think that it's pretty clear that they'll be much-improved. I still think that the Pats are better overall, though. Jets don't have enough talent or depth on the defensive line, and that's going to kill them.

Wouldn't adding Springs and Bodden at corner getting Thomas back healthy, and having Mayo, Guyton, Wheatley and Wilhite as 2nd year players instead of rookies be an equivalent improvement to adding Scott and a 5'8" safety?
Are you really telling me that going from Brett Favre to Matt Sanchez will aid a defense more than going from Matt Cassell to Tom Brady?
Wow. I am shocked.

 

[eagle eye]

AFCE teams ranked 8th, 9th, 14th and 18th last year.
For some reason this thread seems to think the only one of the 4 that was below average is the best one. Oh, and the 8th ranked was the one with the best coaching.

Andy, do you not think we have a lot of guys that have to prove themselves this year?

I look at both defenses as they are right now on paper and you would have to say that the Jets D is certain to perform to a pretty decent level.
I'm hoping that as per usual my concerns about our linebackers are proved wrong any concern usually is.

But right now on paper the Jets have the edge. I do expect that we will be better though as Guyton looks a decent guy and I expect him to start in the middle and I'm hoping that Crable is the guy on the outside.
I really can't see Pierre Woods as a decent starter honestly. Can you?

 

[Deus Irae]

...But right now on paper the Jets have the edge....

Based upon what?

RE
NT
LE
LOLB
ROLB
RILB
LILB
LCB
RCB
SS
FS

depth

Where are the "on paper" Jets showing their superiority?

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, do you not think we have a lot of guys that have to prove themselves this year?

I look at both defenses as they are right now on paper and you would have to say that the Jets D is certain to perform to a pretty decent level.
I'm hoping that as per usual my concerns about our linebackers are proved wrong any concern usually is.

But right now on paper the Jets have the edge. I do expect that we will be better though as Guyton looks a decent guy and I expect him to start in the middle and I'm hoping that Crable is the guy on the outside.
I really can't see Pierre Woods as a decent starter honestly. Can you?

I don't know what you mean by 'prove themselves'. Pierre Woods has not been a starter in the NFL. The other 10 have what I would consider overall vast experience. We may have one of the most experienced defenses in the NFL.
If you are saying Springs and Bodden must 'prove themselves' because they are new to you, I suppose that means Bart Scott, Sheppard, Strickland, Leonhard must prove themselves as well.
Interestingly enough Leonhard, who started for the first time last year due to injury, and is 5'8" has been annointed an upgrade and a star on this board. I don't get that. Maybe he has sometihng to prove entering a season for the first time as a starter in his 5th year?
The Jets lost starters at DE, ILB (there leading tackler) and S as well as CB (Ty Law really was a starter for this team at the end of the year)
That is 4/11ths of the D turned over, and most are pencilling in 'upgrade'
I dont see how:
Leonhard is an upgrade to Elam.
Scott is surely an upgrade to Barton (spare me the overrating of Bart Scott comments please)
Kenyon Coleman is upgraded by WHO? (I'm sure this run stopping 2gap 34 DE that started isnt a big loss right?)
Lito Sheppard is starting quality after being driven out of Philly?
Oh, yeah and for the first 4 games, they have pretty much no one in Paces place, so thats 5 changes, and this one (plus Colemans replacement, plus likely Elams) are no better than Woods, who you dont see as a starter.

Where is the upgrade?
Why do the Patriots who ranked 8th and have 2 new starters (3 counting Woods who started part time) have a lot to prove and the Jets who ranked 18th have 4 new starters and "is certain to perform at a decent level".
It doesnt make any sense.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

problem with the jets is that they wore down later in the season, and they front 7 is not as deep this year........douglas is not as stout against the run as coleman was and is older

the jets were pretty effective on 3rd downs, but they were amongst the worst in the NFL against the pass on first and 2nd down as their aggressiveness forced them to bite constantly on play action.....and this year they will be even more aggressive.......quick counts and spread formations will create alot of mismatches since their LB's are inept at covering RB's and TE's

 

[tanked_as_usual]

the pats only real issue is that they have nothing proven at one OLB position.........mayo/guyton/bruschi/lenon will be fine at ILB

the dolphins will be solid, but they have not changed their defense enough, and cassel made them look dumb

they are suspect in the middle of their line.....

the did improve in the secondary........but their schedule is hell

 

[Ring 6]

problem with the jets is that they wore down later in the season, and they front 7 is not as deep this year........douglas is not as stout against the run as coleman was and is older

the jets were pretty effective on 3rd downs, but they were amongst the worst in the NFL against the pass on first and 2nd down as their aggressiveness forced them to bite constantly on play action.....and this year they will be even more aggressive.......quick counts and spread formations will create alot of mismatches since their LB's are inept at covering RB's and TE's

Douglas is 6/2" 286lbs. He will get eaten alive in a 34.
These chagnes are so typically JET. The same reasons theyve had 13 winning seasons in 49 years,
The take the 3 most unsung heros of their defense (Barton, Coleman and Elam) that were a huge reason why their D had the 1 strength it did (stopping the run) and trade them instead of other draft picks to get a QB who wont help them this year.
I dont get how people think giving away 3 starters and replacing them with decent free agents is going to upgrade a defense. I also don't get how anyone thinks the JEts plan is to win now when they trade 3 starters away to draft a QB who isn't ready to help them,

 

[Ring 6]

the pats only real issue is that they have nothing proven at one OLB position.........mayo/guyton/bruschi/lenon will be fine at ILB

the dolphins will be solid, but they have not changed their defense enough, and cassel made them look dumb

they are suspect in the middle of their line.....

the did improve in the secondary........but their schedule is hell

Until I see otherwise, this is my assessment of the Phins.

In 2007, they were a somewhat below average team with dreadful coaching and dreadful QBing.
In 2008, they added a decent QB and became a somewhat below average team with a very easy schedule and the new sheriff in town effect.
In 2009, I expect them to be somewhat below average, to about average with a tougher schedule and very roughly a .500 team,.

 

[eagle eye]

Based upon what?

RE
NT
LE
LOLB
ROLB
RILB
LILB
LCB
RCB
SS
FS

depth

Where are the "on paper" Jets showing their superiority?

Its not any particular position, they just seem to me to have a more certain to perform to a certain level Defense if you get what I mean.

We have questions that need to be answered in postions especially at outside linebacker.
Lets start with the front line, there is no question there as our guys are all beasts. And we have the depth but the Jets are not in bad shape there either both with starters and depth. I do think we have one of the best front lines in the league though.
But then the questions start.
Mayo and Thomas are outstanding players but after that we have a bunch of unproven guys.
Paris Lenon might well be a nice pickup, Guyton I expect to be the starter alongside Jerod in the middle and there is every chance that we will have a very good interior but the fact remains that they still have to prove themselves at this level.
Now the Jets have Bart Scott this year and David Harris which looks very decent to me. We need somebody to prove themselves alongside Jarod, as Bruschi is finished as far as I'm concerned.
So on paper I give the edge to the New York Jets with starters although I expect Guyton to impress this year and we do have depth with Paris Lenon and Tedy there whereas they don't seem to have real depth at that position.
So lets say thats them with two proven starters and us with talent and depth so I'll give it a tie.
On the outside though the Jets look in far better shape with Pace and Bryan Thomas as starters and Gholston there as well.
We have Adelius Thomas and who? I'm hoping that Crable will come in this year and be the man, I don't see Pierre Woods as a starter. I may be wrong Woods might just do it. Who else have we? Banta-Cain? Not likely and I don't see how we are prepared for a full season in that position unless somebody is being converted to that position that we don't know about.
Definitely a huge edge for the Jets there.
At SS we've got Brandon Merriweather and an injury prone Tank(who would be a beast if he could stay fit). and McGowan who is average at best. Of course we have a very exciting prospect in Pat Chung but he I don't expect to see too much of him this season. Merriweather looked decent last year when he took over from Harrison but again has to prove himself.
The Jets have Leonhard and Eric Smith. Leonhard is good and Smith is a decent backup. Again I give the edge to the Jets but I do expect that Merriweather will improve and maybe Chung gets a little time in some games and takes over later in the season. However on paper you would have to go with the Jets.

After that I like the rest of our secondary but the Jets have proficient starters in all positions we still have question marks. We have Shannon Springs who is injury prone, we have Leigh Bodden coming off a woeful season with the Lions. Ok we have some very promising young players but again they have to prove themselves. I am happy with the rest of the secondary I'm just saying that there are question marks.

Basically I just believe that the Jets at this present time have a better group of proven starters, we have too many positions where we need players to prove themselves.
I am very hopeful though that players will prove themselves and that we will be better than the Jets on D.

 

[Deus Irae]

Its not any particular position, they just seem to me to have a more certain to perform to a certain level Defense if you get what I mean.

We have questions that need to be answered in postions especially at outside linebacker.
Lets start with the front line, there is no question there as our guys are all beasts. And we have the depth but the Jets are not in bad shape there either both with starters and depth. I do think we have one of the best front lines in the league though.
But then the questions start.
Mayo and Thomas are outstanding players but after that we have a bunch of unproven guys.
Paris Lenon might well be a nice pickup, Guyton I expect to be the starter alongside Jerod in the middle and there is every chance that we will have a very good interior but the fact remains that they still have to prove themselves at this level.
Now the Jets have Bart Scott this year and David Harris which looks very decent to me. We need somebody to prove themselves alongside Jarod, as Bruschi is finished as far as I'm concerned.
So on paper I give the edge to the New York Jets with starters although I expect Guyton to impress this year and we do have depth with Paris Lenon and Tedy there whereas they don't seem to have real depth at that position.
So lets say thats them with two proven starters and us with talent and depth so I'll give it a tie.
On the outside though the Jets look in far better shape with Pace and Bryan Thomas as starters and Gholston there as well.
We have Adelius Thomas and who? I'm hoping that Crable will come in this year and be the man, I don't see Pierre Woods as a starter. I may be wrong Woods might just do it. Who else have we? Banta-Cain? Not likely and I don't see how we are prepared for a full season in that position unless somebody is being converted to that position that we don't know about.
Definitely a huge edge for the Jets there.
At SS we've got Brandon Merriweather and an injury prone Tank(who would be a beast if he could stay fit). and McGowan who is average at best. Of course we have a very exciting prospect in Pat Chung but he I don't expect to see too much of him this season. Merriweather looked decent last year when he took over from Harrison but again has to prove himself.
The Jets have Leonhard and Eric Smith. Leonhard is good and Smith is a decent backup. Again I give the edge to the Jets but I do expect that Merriweather will improve and maybe Chung gets a little time in some games and takes over later in the season. However on paper you would have to go with the Jets.

After that I like the rest of our secondary but the Jets have proficient starters in all positions we still have question marks. We have Shannon Springs who is injury prone, we have Leigh Bodden coming off a woeful season with the Lions. Ok we have some very promising young players but again they have to prove themselves. I am happy with the rest of the secondary I'm just saying that there are question marks.

Basically I just believe that the Jets at this present time have a better group of proven starters, we have too many positions where we need players to prove themselves.
I am very hopeful though that players will prove themselves and that we will be better than the Jets on D.

The Patriots are better at at least 5 of the 7 spots in the front 7 (Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Mayo, Thomas), and there's no 'proving' involved. Springs is a quality corner although he's aging, Meriweather and Sanders are fine at safety. New England has also, seemingly, the decided depth advantage. The Jets weren't as good defensively last year as the Patriots, so they are starting at an inherent disadvantage. While I've tentatively listed the Jets as the #1 defense in the division, it's because I don't like to use "on paper" for these determinations when there's as much overhaul as New England will have done, and I want to see 'on paper' on the field before I slot them:

Because the Patriots have made such extensive changes, they are tough to place:

Jets
Dolphins
Bills

I would expect that the Patriots will have the best defensive line but, after that, I couldn't really give anything approaching a worthwhile analysis.

However, 'on paper', the Patriots are the best defense in the AFCE, IMO, if you just split the difference on Bodden between his Cleveland and Detroit days.

 

[Rob0729]

Personally, I can't tell. Assuming the additions to the Pats' secondary pay off, I would go with them. But I don't know if any of the teams in the AFC East will have a top defense this year. I think the Jets' defense is way overrated right now. The Dolphins had problems last year especially in their secondary and that hasn't been addressed. The Bills have a decent defense on paper, but they lose players left and right on it.

 

[patfanken]

.
We have Adelius Thomas and who? I'm hoping that Crable will come in this year and be the man, I don't see Pierre Woods as a starter. I may be wrong Woods might just do it. Who else have we? Banta-Cain? Not likely and I don't see how we are prepared for a full season in that position unless somebody is being converted to that position that we don't know about.
The Jets have Leonhard and Eric Smith. Leonhard is good and Smith is a decent backup. Again I give the edge to the Jets but I do expect that Merriweather will improve and maybe Chung gets a little time in some games and takes over later in the season. However on paper you would have to go with the Jets.

After that I like the rest of our secondary but the Jets have proficient starters in all positions we still have question marks. We have Shannon Springs who is injury prone, we have Leigh Bodden coming off a woeful season with the Lions. Ok we have some very promising young players but again they have to prove themselves. I am happy with the rest of the secondary I'm just saying that there are question marks.

Basically I just believe that the Jets at this present time have a better group of proven starters, we have too many positions where we need players to prove themselves.
I am very hopeful though that players will prove themselves and that we will be better than the Jets on D.

Just a couple of thoughts on your post. First I don't understand WHY some people think Merriwether is a SS. The Pats often don't designate between their S's but if ANYTHING, Brandon is a FS who is very agressive (sometimes too much early last season) vs the run. The guy is quick enough that he can match up on receivers one on one. If anyone can be called a SS its Sanders. As to Chung, we have to see him in pads to determine what where he might go. IMHO Williams will only make this team if he can prove he can play ST's.

A couple of things on the OLBs. I don't understand WHY some people are so down on Pierre Woods. What did he do when he DID get the chance to play that was so bad. In my eyes, he looked pretty sollid, given the secondary behind him. Is he the second coming of Sean Merriman as a pass rusher. Probably not, but the Pats have never really had a one on one great pass rusher. Most of the Pats sacks come due to schemes. That's not to say that some guys aren't better than others, but IMHO if Woods were to get 16 starts he'd get his 6-8, just like most Pats OLBs.... most years. Crable has the upside to BE that dominant pass rusher, and I hope he is, but he's another year away, then I'm pretty happy with Pierre Woods.

As to TBC, at first I only saw his signing as a means to upgrade the special teams, since he's always excelled there. Then I remembered that in his only year of starting, didn't he have 7 or 8 sacks. Wasn't he a pretty good pass rusher? Wasn't the reason the Pats didn't make a hard rush to keep him was his weakness against the run? His inability to "set the edge" ? Forget his forgetable years in SF. They had some serious coaching problems. Now that he's home, I can actually see TBC being an effective situational pass rusher at
times.

BTW - While I agree that Springs health is a real issue. The fact remains that as late as last season, he was the Skins best CB.....when healthy. Also none of us can gauge Bodin's season, good or bad...unless we've seen the coaches tapes of his games. All I know that he was the Browns best CB during his years with Romeo, and at his size he's an upgrade on BOTH the guys we had last season.

 

[eagle eye]

The Patriots are better at at least 5 of the 7 spots in the front 7 (Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Mayo, Thomas), and there's no 'proving' involved. Springs is a quality corner although he's aging, Meriweather and Sanders are fine at safety. New England has also, seemingly, the decided depth advantage. The Jets weren't as good defensively last year as the Patriots, so they are starting at an inherent disadvantage. While I've tentatively listed the Jets as the #1 defense in the division, it's because I don't like to use "on paper" for these determinations when there's as much overhaul as New England will have done, and I want to see 'on paper' on the field before I slot them:



However, 'on paper', the Patriots are the best defense in the AFCE, IMO, if you just split the difference on Bodden between his Cleveland and Detroit days.

I like Vince but in fairness Jenkins is a beast.
I'll go better in 4 or 7 positions and a tie at NT.
And we are way ahead of any team in the AFCE with our linemen.
As I've said Springs is injury prone and he has had a rough time of it over the last few years so there are questions marks.
Bodden is coming off a bad year and he too has had injuries over the last couple of years. Again there are question marks.
I fully expect them to work out but when you look at the last couple of years these guys have had issues with injury and form.
We do have a very exciting prospect as well in Butler and I'm looking forward to seeing him in action.

But my point is we have promising youngsters and then experienced players with quesion marks over them as regards form and staying fit.

Just to clarify I expect us to be better over the season, but thats because of history and our head coach. It just seems that players who have had fitness problems, loss of form elsewhere seem to thrive with us.