Ben-Jarvis Green-Ellis

[Rob0729]

It's worked all season. win.

Really? Where is your proof of that? Epic fail until you prove otherwise.

BTW, the reason it was so successful Sunday is because the Steelers have been burnt by it all year. Courtesey of Mike Reiss:

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- One area to watch Sunday night is play-action passing, as both the Patriots and Steelers defenses have shown vulnerability.

According to ESPN Stats & Information tracking, each team has allowed opposing quarterbacks to complete more than 70 percent of their play-action passes.

Some statistics from ESPN Stats & Information:

Patriots defense against play-action
Completion percentage: 74.2
Yards/attempt: 9.5
Passer rating: 98.4

Steelers defense against play-action
Completion percentage: 77.3
Yards/attempt: 9.0
Passer rating: 111.6

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-...4687264/play-action-a-weakness-for-both-teams

So it had nothing to do with BJGE, but the Steelers' defense. The Pats don't run a lot of play action, but they did Sunday because the Steelers suck against it. Win on my part.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Really? Where is your proof of that? Epic fail until you prove otherwise.

I honestly don't know how I could prove that. But playaction has worked really well. Eye test?

 

[sbpatfan]

Polamalu looked pretty horrible against play action on Sunday, he bit on it bad a couple of times.

 

[Rob0729]

I honestly don't know how I could prove that. But playaction has worked really well. Eye test?

LOL! It worked Sunday because the Steelers are one of the worst teams in the NFL against the play action (as I posted). The Pats don't run that much play action and when BJGE is rushing for less than 25 yards in a game, no one is going to bite on it.

 

[Rob0729]

Polamalu looked pretty horrible against play action on Sunday, he bit on it bad a couple of times.

The entire Steelers defense is horrible against the play action. That is why the Pats ran it more on Sunday than they probably ran it in the previous four games before it combined.

 

[spacecrime]

Sorry, but BJGE doesn't demand that much respect especially with Brady on the field.

Sorry, but he does. You don't respect him, but count the # of opposing defensive players in the box when BJGE and 2 TEs are on the field. Opposing D's respect him, and by respect him, I mean they do not cheat by playing 5 or 6 in the box inthose situations.

Look at Gronkowski's second TD last game. Classic play action. The entire D reacted to BJGE leaving Gronk so open my grandmother could have scored.

I don't know where you get the idea that BJGE doesn't make play action work.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't really see how Maroney entered into the thread, but since he did, and since he's apparently the worst running back in NFL history, let's take a look:

The oft-maligned Maroney: 49 games, 12 with an average under 3.00, including injury games (and 3 of 4 games this season in Denver were in the under 3.00 list). That's 24% of the time.

Laurence Maroney Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

BJGE the conqueror: 23 games, 10 with an average under 3.00, and he's had no injury games. He's averaged under 3.00 in 4 of his 9 games this season (hell, he's averaged under 2.20 in 4 of his 9 games this season). That's 43% of the time. 3 of 9 games have him at 2.00 or under (33%).

BenJarvus Green-Ellis Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Additionally, 6 of BJGE's 23 games are under 2.00 ypc, and 1 of them is exactly 2.00. So, 26% of his games have him running at 2.0 ypc or less. That's in comparison to Maroney, who's rushed for 2.0 or less 4 times in 49 games (8%).

As I noted earlier in this thread,

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/697642-ben-jarvis-green-ellis.html#post2343431

of the teams with 6 wins or more, only Green Bay is going with a lesser RB, and that's because their starter ended up on IR.

 

[mgteich]

Woodhead was NOT acquired in the offseason. Belichick was quite satisfied with Green-Ellis and the ancient ones. Woodhead was picked up after the season began.

I didn't read the whole thread but someone must have said something about Woodhead in here.

 

[JackBauer]

of the teams with 6 wins or more, only Green Bay is going with a lesser RB, and that's because their starter ended up on IR.

I dunno, Forte kind of sucks.

But then again, Chicago's offensive line is one of the worst in the league. So you may be right.

 

[Rob0729]

Sorry, but he does. You don't respect him, but count the # of opposing defensive players in the box when BJGE and 2 TEs are on the field. Opposing D's respect him, and by respect him, I mean they do not cheat by playing 5 or 6 in the box inthose situations.

Look at Gronkowski's second TD last game. Classic play action. The entire D reacted to BJGE leaving Gronk so open my grandmother could have scored.

I don't know where you get the idea that BJGE doesn't make play action work.

Again provide proof. Besides, how much of that is because they are putting defenders close to the line to either blitz Brady or want to bumb the TEs or Welker close to the line. Respecting a RB is putting at least 8 in the box anyway. On obvious running plays, most teams put at least 7 in the box. That isn't demanding much respect.

 

[Rob0729]

I dunno, Forte kind of sucks.

But then again, Chicago's offensive line is one of the worst in the league. So you may be right.

I chock it up to the Bears' line, but Forte is either on par or slightly less than BJGE because of the line.

 

[Deus Irae]

I dunno, Forte kind of sucks.

But then again, Chicago's offensive line is one of the worst in the league. So you may be right.

Forte's not very good, but people here are underestimating just how bad BJGE has been so far in his career.

 

[patsinthesnow]

"Yeah, stupidity on BB's part."-Deus Irae on Maroney being traded

I'm sorry but everytime you defend Maroney I laugh while he won't have a job next year in the NFL unless it's being the waterboy.

 

[mgteich]

I'm not sure why we are discussing Maroney. Belichick chose to go with Green-Ellis instead of Maroney. There are probably 100 threads on that subject.

What I meant to discuss here was whether you all felt that we had an average starter on a top team, one of the very worst starters of any competitive team, or somewhwere in-between.

Deus addressed this issue in his post.

Others pointed out that Taylor should start when (and if) he is healthy. While I agree with starting Taylor, I have thought for a couple of years that we needed more talent at the RB position, or at very least a 5th RB to enter the season in case of injury to Morris and Taylor.

Last year, we didn't give Green-Ellis serious reps when there were two injuries. This year, there was little choice.

The choice of not bering in more help was a conscious one by Belichick.
=========

BOTTOM LINE
!) Currently, we have the worst or close to weakest starting ruinning back of any competitive team.
2) The offensive line is playing very, very well.
2) Our only hope for improvement is for Taylor to become healthy, or for another team to give us a gift like Woodhead.

 

[JackBauer]

Forte's not very good, but people here are underestimating just how bad BJGE has been so far in his career.

BJGE is a bit of an enigma to me. I guess the best thing I could say would be to agree that he's inconsistent at this point. Some games, like against the Steelers, for example, he impresses, while others (Browns, Jets, Chargers) he totally craps the bed.

I think inconsistency works to describe him as, in my eyes, against the Browns, he seemed to miss a lot of holes and run into the backs of his own blockers.

 

[Kasmir]

That is whooey! If anything, the fans fall in love with the unheralded guys who perform above their heads. The following players are players who came to the Pats unheraldly who became folk heroes or people's binkies - Danny Woodhead, Brandon Deadrick, Sebatian Vollmer, Wes Welker (even before the rest of the league caught on), David Givens, Gary Guyton (at least last year), Tyrone McKenzie (the guy was annoited the next great ILB long before he ever hit the field and proved everyone wrong), Shawn Crable (ditto), Mike Wright,

It is usually the marque guys who don't get a break in this town. Maroney was killed because he never lived up to his first round status even when he played fairly well like in 2007. Matt Light can shut down his side all game and he lets a defender through on one play and he had a horrible game. Mayo struggles because of injury last year and he is a failed draft pick. Brady throws an interception and he lost his passion for football and doesn't show the fire he used to.

You are way off base on this point.

A fair point, and I should have been clearer. Credentialism comes in when evaluating top players in the league. With the (possible) exception of Welker, *none* of the players you mentioned are considered top players in the league at their position. They're mostly a collection of binkies. Binkies by definition are poorly credentialed. BJGE has never been a binky because he's boring. But he's now performing at a high level by league-wide standards.

People loved Sammy Morris before he hit the age wall and he is just as unexciting.

Nobody to my knowledge ever claimed Morris could be a lead back. That's exactly what the issue with BJGE is. He's the lead back and that's what's controversial.

You have a harder time naming teams that aren't RB by committee than who are these days. I think this is a weak argument. Jamaal Charles is 6th in rushing yards and he platoons with Thomas Jones. Ahmad Bradshaw is third and he platoons with Brandon Jacobs. Ray Rice is 13th and he platoons with Willis McGahee.

The platooning is more profound with BJGE and Woodhead because of the high degree of game-specific planning Belichick does. BJGE was featured against Pitt but Woodhead was almost invisible. Nearly the opposite was true vs the Ravens. This is a persistent problem for *lots* of Patriots' players reputations -- see Gronkowski vs Hernandez this week.

This has some validity. But Brady's reputation doesn't change the fact that BJGE has rushed for under 25 YPG in three of the last five games.

Funny, because I think this is actually the most valid basis for criticism of BJGE's performance in my eyes -- the passing game creates the opportunities for BJGE's success. But he *has* been successful given the chances. He really did run well vs Pittsburg.

Although Football Outsider is a better stat analyzer than most, stats in the NFL are very misleading and can be misinterpreted. I will not speak to this because I do not know how they measure this and I will have to look at it before I comment on how they came to that stat. But even BJGE supporters gotta say there is something flawed about this DVOA if BJGE is third in the league by their standards.

The big deal about DVOA is that it's per-play, opponent adjusted, and weights successful plays heavily. BJGE is not the only uncredentialed player who scores well in such a stat system.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not sure why we are discussing Maroney. Belichick chose to go with Green-Ellis instead of Maroney. There are probably 100 threads on that subject.

What I meant to discuss here was whether you all felt that we had an average starter on a top team, one of the very worst starters of any competitive team, or somewhwere in-between.

Deus addressed this issue in his post.

Others pointed out that Taylor should start when (and if) he is healthy. While I agree with starting Taylor, I have thought for a couple of years that we needed more talent at the RB position, or at very least a 5th RB to enter the season in case of injury to Morris and Taylor.

Last year, we didn't give Green-Ellis serious reps when there were two injuries. This year, there was little choice.

The choice of not bering in more help was a conscious one by Belichick.
=========

BOTTOM LINE
!) Currently, we have the worst or close to weakest starting ruinning back of any competitive team.
2) The offensive line is playing very, very well.
2) Our only hope for improvement is for Taylor to become healthy, or for another team to give us a gift like Woodhead.

I brought up Maroney, but didn't mean it to be a discussion on him although I got caught into that trap. I apologize. My only point is that I think Belichick traded him thinking Taylor was back and healthy.

Obviously, Belichick wasn't sold on BJGE as the lead back since we found out he was negotiating to trade for Pierre Thomas (who is having a bad year) up to the trade deadline and the deal fell through because compensation wasn't agreed to. As you pointed out, BJGE didn't even get a shot last year. Now Belichick is just playing the cards he was dealt (part of that is his own doing).

Luckily, they picked up Woodhead who has far exceeded anyone's expectations (since most thought he was just a gamesmanship play against the Jets) and he has stepped up in games where BJGE failed. But right now, I think the RB corp is the Pats' biggest weakness at least until Taylor comes back and shows he can be at least close to 100%.

 

[Rob0729]

A fair point, and I should have been clearer. Credentialism comes in when evaluating top players in the league. With the (possible) exception of Welker, *none* of the players you mentioned are considered top players in the league at their position. They're mostly a collection of binkies. Binkies by definition are poorly credentialed. BJGE has never been a binky because he's boring. But he's now performing at a high level by league-wide standards.

BJGE has been a huge binkie on this board because of one game in 2008. I think you are wrong about this. To me, he has been the closest thing to Michael Bishop since Michael Bishop.

Nobody to my knowledge ever claimed Morris could be a lead back. That's exactly what the issue with BJGE is. He's the lead back and that's what's controversial.

Check back at posts on this board around 2007. I think you are wrong here. Many people wanted Maroney replaced by Morris.

The platooning is more profound with BJGE and Woodhead because of the high degree of game-specific planning Belichick does. BJGE was featured against Pitt but Woodhead was almost invisible. Nearly the opposite was true vs the Ravens. This is a persistent problem for *lots* of Patriots' players reputations -- see Gronkowski vs Hernandez this week.

I think you are overstating this. Many of Woodhead carries have been because BJGE wasn't getting the job done, not game specific planning.

Funny, because I think this is actually the most valid basis for criticism of BJGE's performance in my eyes -- the passing game creates the opportunities for BJGE's success. But he *has* been successful given the chances. He really did run well vs Pittsburg.

The Jets, Ravens, Chargers, and Browns game disagrees with you.

The big deal about DVOA is that it's per-play, opponent adjusted, and weights successful plays heavily. BJGE is not the only uncredentialed player who scores well in such a stat system.

Doesn't mean that it isn't a statistical fluke though. It could be that his low attempt total and his great YPC in the games he does perform well can skew his results. Again, without looking at it close enough, I cannot give an true comment to why he is up there and whether it is a fluke or not.

 

[Kasmir]

I don't really see how Maroney entered into the thread, but since he did, and since he's apparently the worst running back in NFL history, let's take a look:

The oft-maligned Maroney: 49 games, 12 with an average under 3.00, including injury games (and 3 of 4 games this season in Denver were in the under 3.00 list). That's 24% of the time.

Laurence Maroney Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

BJGE the conqueror: 23 games, 10 with an average under 3.00, and he's had no injury games. He's averaged under 3.00 in 4 of his 9 games this season (hell, he's averaged under 2.20 in 4 of his 9 games this season). That's 43% of the time. 3 of 9 games have him at 2.00 or under (33%).

BenJarvus Green-Ellis Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Additionally, 6 of BJGE's 23 games are under 2.00 ypc, and 1 of them is exactly 2.00. So, 26% of his games have him running at 2.0 ypc or less. That's in comparison to Maroney, who's rushed for 2.0 or less 4 times in 49 games (8%).

As I noted earlier in this thread,

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/697642-ben-jarvis-green-ellis.html#post2343431

of the teams with 6 wins or more, only Green Bay is going with a lesser RB, and that's because their starter ended up on IR.

Talk about cherry picking. You're including a ton of games when he was in for very few carries, and usually in short yardage. How about this for a cherry pie: let's just take the 8 career games where BJGE had more than 10 carries. He's 132-724 yards for a 5.5ypc with 8 rushing TDs

Or maybe you can just make an attempt at explaining why he's #3 in DVOA *and* DYAR at FO this year -- you're usually so complimentary of their statistical analysis...

 

[RobertWeathers]

BJGE has been a huge binkie on this board because of one game in 2008. I think you are wrong about this. To me, he has been the closest thing to Michael Bishop since Michael Bishop.
.

C'mon, Rob...At least BJGE has produced in the regular season. Comparing him to Michael Bishop dilutes your entire position.