Belichick on McCourty

[Ring 6]

1.) Ok, so the homers consistently tell us that BB knows better than everyone else, so questioning him is stupid. So, why the hell did the team need to draft yet another cornerback? If this kid busts out tomorrow, his being picked will have accomplished at least one thing: It will give the more objective posters a "scoreboard" response when the homers crack out that line of stupidity.

2.) Mayock has concerns about this kid's fluidity in transition.

3.) All of those people who are now defending this pick need to either show where they talked about need at CB prior to the draft or to stop riding the asses of those who don't like the pick.

4.) This is all just looking in a vacuum, and it's another reason the 3 day draft format sucks. It's likely that the team will take DE/OLB picks in round 2, and that will make the round 1 pick look much better. That context is missing right now. Once again the Ommissioner screws the pooch.

5.) DE
OLB
ILB
OG

Get 'er done, Bill.

1) I won't speak for anyone else, but I absolutely feel BB will consistently make better football decisions than anyone on this board. Thats not because he runs the Pats, its because he has proven that he makes better football decisions than his peers, and its entirely ignorant to think an amateur on a message board could outperform a trained experiened professional who has aobut 3% of the facts to work with.
That doesn't mean every pick is going to work out, thats a crazy place to set the bar.
How many Pats fans posters do you think would have done a better job with this franchise if they made BBs decisions for him?
So when someone says Wilson was a better pick that McCourty I dismiss that because it is made with a small percentage of the facts and a clearly inferior skill in assessing those facts than BB has PROVEN to have.
The difference between the 27th and 35th pick in a draft is slim. Look at draft history. Very often you cannot anticipate which player will be better you simply have to make a choice. If Matt Millen were making our picks, I would say posters are more likely to be right, but we are talking about BB here, and his track record is excellent. Are you seriously saying that the bar should be set that he is infallible, or that if you can find any bad picks 'you win' because you would never make a bad or questionable pick?
2) There are positives and negatives in every player. Given our system the analysis I have read sounds like the strengths and weaknesses fit what we want very well.
3) I have bemoaned our coverage for a very long time, and have talked about a corner in the limited amount of draft posts I have made. You can look that up.
4) That's a sensible approach. The real success in drafting isnt picking in order of need, but properly assessing the difference in quality at each position at different stages in the draft. If all the OLBs are gone and there are a plethora of close to 1stround caliber corners left, that is a very different story than if there is a huge dropoff at corner and a wealth of similar players at OLB throughout the 1st and 2nd.
5) By the end of tomorrow we should have an awful lot of young talent on defense from the last few drafts, which seems like a building block for a good run of top tier defenses.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

.

4.) This is all just looking in a vacuum, and it's another reason the 3 day draft format sucks. It's likely that the team will take DE/OLB picks in round 2, and that will make the round 1 pick look much better. That context is missing right now. Once again the Ommissioner screws the pooch.

5.) DE
OLB
ILB
OG

Get 'er done, Bill.

Agreed. I was not expecting McCourty, but when they add a number of quality players by the end of today it'll look more whole.

 

[Deus Irae]

1. "Objective?" Well now, if you're objective I must be a Supreme Court Justice.

Box, you're a wild-eyed homer. When it comes to anything Patriots, your notion of objective is skewed, to put it mildly.

2. NFL Videos: Mayock's top five Watch the scroll at the top around the 4 minute mark, I'll give you one guess who Mayock had ranked as his #3 CB. Mayock vs. Mayock, I wonder who wins?

He thinks the kid has a bit of an issue in transition. I was passing out a tidbit of information, nothing more. His overall ranking is a nice additional tidbit, but it doesn't change what I posted.

3. See my publicist: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...yourself-off-any-bridges-yet.html#post1798105

Many of the people bagging on those who don't like the pick likely didn't even have CB on their list. I had it on my list. It's nice to see that you did too.

4. I haven't made my mind up about the three-day format, I was skeptical when it was announced, but I'm waiting to see how things go. I hope you aren't operating in a "vacuum," not having gone through this format before and all.

Several of the problems I foresaw with the new draft format have all come to fruition already. Frankly, I hadn't even thought of this "vacuum" situation regarding first round picks until it kicked in. It's just one more problem with the new setup.

 

[Deus Irae]

1) I won't speak for anyone else, but I absolutely feel BB will consistently make better football decisions than anyone on this board. Thats not because he runs the Pats, its because he has proven that he makes better football decisions than his peers, and its entirely ignorant to think an amateur on a message board could outperform a trained experiened professional who has aobut 3% of the facts to work with.
That doesn't mean every pick is going to work out, thats a crazy place to set the bar.
How many Pats fans posters do you think would have done a better job with this franchise if they made BBs decisions for him?
So when someone says Wilson was a better pick that McCourty I dismiss that because it is made with a small percentage of the facts and a clearly inferior skill in assessing those facts than BB has PROVEN to have.
The difference between the 27th and 35th pick in a draft is slim. Look at draft history. Very often you cannot anticipate which player will be better you simply have to make a choice. If Matt Millen were making our picks, I would say posters are more likely to be right, but we are talking about BB here, and his track record is excellent. Are you seriously saying that the bar should be set that he is infallible, or that if you can find any bad picks 'you win' because you would never make a bad or questionable pick?

1.) I think the Chicken Littles went into full panic mode on the pick without thinking it through.

2.) You, and a lot of the other more rabid homers, have gotten into such a defensive mode that y'all just assume everyone who makes any critical comment of Belichick or the team must be anti-Patriots. You've all lost the ability to even appreciate objectivity.

3.) A one slot difference can mean the world, never mind going from 27 to 35. Ask the Chargers about picking #2 behind the Colts a few years back.

4.) The "how many fans" argument that you like to toss out as if it's important is one of the most meaningless arguments the world will ever see. I assume you never criticize or question anyone outside of areas where you have specific knowledge and expertise, and who's not your obvious inferior in those areas?

5.) Pimping/disparaging Millen is just as stupid as pimping/disparaging Belichick, given your arguments.

2) There are positives and negatives in every player. Given our system the analysis I have read sounds like the strengths and weaknesses fit what we want very well.

I absolutely agree. However, regarding my post:

Mayock thinks the kid has an issue in transition. That's news that fans and posters will want to know if they find Mayock's opinion informative.

3) I have bemoaned our coverage for a very long time, and have talked about a corner in the limited amount of draft posts I have made. You can look that up.

I believe you when you say it was an issue for you, and feel no need to look it up. My point was a general one.

4) That's a sensible approach. The real success in drafting isnt picking in order of need, but properly assessing the difference in quality at each position at different stages in the draft. If all the OLBs are gone and there are a plethora of close to 1stround caliber corners left, that is a very different story than if there is a huge dropoff at corner and a wealth of similar players at OLB throughout the 1st and 2nd.

I absolutely agree, although if Belichick doesn't stop trading down for value and start bringing in top flight talent, this team is going to become the deepest 8-8 team in history after Brady declines in play or retires.

5) By the end of tomorrow we should have an awful lot of young talent on defense from the last few drafts, which seems like a building block for a good run of top tier defenses.

From your fingers to God's eyes.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

To me the draft is such a chess match inthe first round and who knows what happens on the inside. it could be that BB had his sights set on a TE for the first round pick until it was taken away right before they picked and they deemed the remaining choices equally.

When the trading down started I was initially concerned they would trade out of the first, but it was good to see them stick a first. there aren't oo many picks i nthe first round that make or break a team and certainly very few who anyone would ever consider that would cause a coach to alter their program (like a Vick type talent) and certainly BB wants players to fit his system.

I'd say owners fill tickets with first round choices (and yes that can definitely be because of winning), but teams win with the people selected in rounds 2-7. In 3 years when they revisit the draft what % of the redo will come from players in the first round? Plus, I'm still witing to see who BB and company trade for. there always seems to be one of those happening in each draft.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box, you're a wild-eyed homer. When it comes to anything Patriots, your notion of objective is skewed, to put it mildly.

As long as my efforts are an attempt to be analytical, as opposed to the steady drumbeat of negativity which is so common hereabouts.

He thinks the kid has a bit of an issue in transition. I was passing out a tidbit of information, nothing more. His overall ranking is a nice additional tidbit, but it doesn't change what I posted.

Yep, Mayock's thumbnail sketch during the draft show showed that hitch in his transition at the Combine, he also listed some positives which somehow did not get mentioned in your objective tidbits of information. I'm happy to provide you with the additional tidbit of Mayock's overall assessment/ranking.

Several of the problems I foresaw with the new draft format have all come to fruition already. Frankly, I hadn't even thought of this "vacuum" situation regarding first round picks until it kicked in. It's just one more problem with the new setup.

I find I enjoyed last night's broadcast, it was frustrating at times, but leading up to NE's selection I found myself cheering the various picks and moves. I was eager to keep going into Round Two, but after a good night's sleep I find myself just as excited to watch where things go today - I just need to make sure I get some hot wings laid in before the draft recommences.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

As long as my efforts are an attempt to be analytical, as opposed to the steady drumbeat of negativity which is so common hereabouts.

Yep, Mayock's thumbnail sketch during the draft show showed that hitch in his transition at the Combine, he also listed some positives which somehow did not get mentioned in your objective tidbits of information. I'm happy to provide you with the additional tidbit of Mayock's overall assessment/ranking.

I find I enjoyed last night's broadcast, it was frustrating at times, but leading up to NE's selection I found myself cheering the various picks and moves. I was eager to keep going into Round Two, but after a good night's sleep I find myself just as excited to watch where things go today - I just need to make sure I get some hot wings laid in before the draft recommences.

Box,Don't forget your meds before the Wings,they must be taken with food

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box,Don't forget your meds before the Wings,they must be taken with food

Trust me grasshoppah, my collection of ouchies are quick to remind me when my meds are coming due. :bricks:

 

[Keyser Söze]

They just did a phone interview with McCourty on first-take.

 

[Ring 6]

1.) I think the Chicken Littles went into full panic mode on the pick without thinking it through.

2.) You, and a lot of the other more rabid homers, have gotten into such a defensive mode that y'all just assume everyone who makes any critical comment of Belichick or the team must be anti-Patriots. You've all lost the ability to even appreciate objectivity.
there is a difference between being objective and decreeing stupidity
maybe its just me, but the negative posts on this board seem to come across as if they are speaking as experts and the positive come across as giving the benefit of doubt.[/I]
3.) A one slot difference can mean the world, never mind going from 27 to 35. Ask the Chargers about picking #2 behind the Colts a few years back.
well sure, but there are many players drafted later that turn out better than the ones drafted earlier. You made my point. Players drafted so close together can end up very different quality. The fact that there is one case where the right choice was made doesnt changes that, there have been many that went the other way
4.) The "how many fans" argument that you like to toss out as if it's important is one of the most meaningless arguments the world will ever see. I assume you never criticize or question anyone outside of areas where you have specific knowledge and expertise, and who's not your obvious inferior in those areas?
There is a difference between questioning and assuming I can make better decisions that experts who are good at their job.
Isn't it kind of fruitless to have a small portion of the information available to an expert and questioning how they assessed it, even with less assessment skill in that area?
I just find it foolish that there are poster who think they know better than BB whether McCourty or Wilson are a better pick. Its like spending 5 minutes reading the financial pages and then critiquing the most successful mutual fund manager in the country and callin his investments idiotic.
5.) Pimping/disparaging Millen is just as stupid as pimping/disparaging Belichick, given your arguments.

No it is completely relevant. When you can't possibly have enough facts to judge the decision, the track record of the person making it must be considered. BBs is one of the best, Millens is one of the worst.

I absolutely agree. However, regarding my post:

Mayock thinks the kid has an issue in transition. That's news that fans and posters will want to know if they find Mayock's opinion informative.

Butyou realize you posted only the negative, right.

I believe you when you say it was an issue for you, and feel no need to look it up. My point was a general one.
ok


I absolutely agree, although if Belichick doesn't stop trading down for value and start bringing in top flight talent, this team is going to become the deepest 8-8 team in history after Brady declines in play or retires.
I disagree here. I think that depth and talent across the roster is more important than 'top flight talent'. Lack of liability is more important than wealth of strength. But thats just my opinion, many may disagree.
I think that a team with a wealth of solid players, a ton of depth, and numerous picks in the prime of their careers battling for jobs is better than one with a few stars surrounded by weaknesses

From your fingers to God's eyes.

see bold above

 

[Ring 6]

see italics above

yeah, italics bad idea, let me try to edit

 

[Deus Irae]

As long as my efforts are an attempt to be analytical, as opposed to the steady drumbeat of negativity which is so common hereabouts.

1.) Your efforts are not always such attempts

2.) There is no steady drumbeat of negativity. There is a 3 way split on the board.

3.) The overly rosy view was shown to be wrong last year. Perhaps you should be listening a little more intently to those who were pointing out the problems while the rest of you were singing hosannas.

Yep, Mayock's thumbnail sketch during the draft show showed that hitch in his transition at the Combine, he also listed some positives which somehow did not get mentioned in your objective tidbits of information. I'm happy to provide you with the additional tidbit of Mayock's overall assessment/ranking.

1.) I didn't watch the draft. I knew what Mayock said because a friend of mine told me about it and I checked on it.

2.) Any and all tidbits from quality analysts and reporters is greatly appreciated.

I find I enjoyed last night's broadcast, it was frustrating at times, but leading up to NE's selection I found myself cheering the various picks and moves. I was eager to keep going into Round Two, but after a good night's sleep I find myself just as excited to watch where things go today - I just need to make sure I get some hot wings laid in before the draft recommences.

I spent the evening at my brother's house doing things non-sports related. I listened to the pick breakdown on the way home, checked the draft and trade trackers when I booted up my computers, and spoke to the above friend to find out what he found interesting so that I could get a playback from him over the phone.

I might watch some of the draft tonight, but it would only be as a click during commercials from the games tonight.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

As long as my efforts are an attempt to be analytical, as opposed to the steady drumbeat of negativity which is so common hereabouts.

Nail on the head. I may be a Homer who believes BB knows FAR more than anybody here but that doesn't preclude me from reading and even acknowledging critiques and points which are analytical in nature and well stated. The same can be said for the homer approach. Nothing's all good nor is it all bad; I DO trust BB but not because I chug Koolaid, I trust him because he's got the track record to back up his fries. Is he perfect, of course not but there's truly nobody else I'd rather have at the helm than him.

I'll go back to one of his statements awhile back; he commented that he misses the critical feedback he used to get from personnel that he trusted.

I appreciate the negative and the positive as long as it's thought out and has substance. Even we proud homers are capable of actual thought. Now where the hell did I put my pom-poms:singing:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Nail on the head. I may be a Homer who believes BB knows FAR more than anybody here but that doesn't preclude me from reading and even acknowledging critiques and points which are analytical in nature and well stated. The same can be said for the homer approach. Nothing's all good nor is it all bad; I DO trust BB but not because I chug Koolaid, I trust him because he's got the track record to back up his fries. Is he perfect, of course not but there's truly nobody else I'd rather have at the helm than him.

I'll go back to one of his statements awhile back; he commented that he misses the critical feedback he used to get from personnel that he trusted.

I appreciate the negative and the positive as long as it's thought out and has substance. Even we proud homers are capable of actual thought. Now where the hell did I put my pom-poms:singing:

Apparently we wild-eyed ones not so often.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Mark it down, Patriot nation will rue the fact that BB passed on Thomas and Bryant, both of those studs are going to be game breakers, either one would have stepped right in and made instant impacts and in true BB fashion, he passed.

BB drafted Terrence Wheatley in Round 2, he already has 3 decent to good CB's in (Bodden, Butler and Wilhite) who are young (Butler/Wilhite) with higher upside to get even better. I envisioned Bodden and Butler locking down the starting outside slots with Wilhite moving inside to the slot. So we basically drafted a guy with the 27th pick to challenge for time at nickel or dime and gun on ST. Why ? With so many needs, MORE glaring needs at other spots, Why ?

BB invested a 2nd rounder in Wheatley, I know he's been hurt, but he is still young and if he's healthy, there's your dime CB. Can someone explain why this pick was made given the other higher priority needs.

First round talent is drafted with the expectations to start unless you are drafted by a Final 4 roster, then you are drafted for depth. We aren't near that Final 4 roster.

Dez Bryant was our answer to Brandon Marshall and Santonio Holmes, and BB looked the other way. Watch what Bryant does in this league and from this point on, we can hammer BB for his idiocy.

I have to agree, someone needs to tell Belichick it's not against the law to draft a stud, a potential game breaker, and someone to help our future.

 

[Deus Irae]

see bold above

there is a difference between being objective and decreeing stupidity
maybe its just me, but the negative posts on this board seem to come across as if they are speaking as experts and the positive come across as giving the benefit of doubt.

Yes, it's "just you". Given your "I'll believe Belichick..." assertions, you should know better than to pretend your argument here is even remotely accurate.

well sure, but there are many players drafted later that turn out better than the ones drafted earlier. You made my point. Players drafted so close together can end up very different quality. The fact that there is one case where the right choice was made doesnt changes that, there have been many that went the other way

There has never been a case where missing your pick by 1 or more has been a good thing, unless you're asserting that those "passes" a few years back were deliberate. Now, it might have worked out in the end, but that's a different issue.

There is a difference between questioning and assuming I can make better decisions that experts who are good at their job.

No, there's not, unless it's a teaching moment. Given that this is a message board and not a BB seminar, we're not talking teaching moment. Therefore, you are assuming precisely what you claim you are not.

Isn't it kind of fruitless to have a small portion of the information available to an expert and questioning how they assessed it, even with less assessment skill in that area?

The answer, demonstrated myriad times throughout history, is "no" or, more accurately, "not always".

I just find it foolish that there are poster who think they know better than BB whether McCourty or Wilson are a better pick. Its like spending 5 minutes reading the financial pages and then critiquing the most successful mutual fund manager in the country and callin his investments idiotic.

If the most successful mutual fund manager in the country decides to buy Enron, his investment is idiotic. It doesn't matter what his success level elsewhere has been. What's foolish is you not grasping the whole point of what "Objective" means, even as you defend being anything BUT objective. As I believe I've suggested to you before, you really need to look up the definition of the word.

No it is completely relevant. When you can't possibly have enough facts to judge the decision, the track record of the person making it must be considered. BBs is one of the best, Millens is one of the worst.

No, it's absolutely irrelevant when you are trying to be objective. The whole crux of your problem in dealing with the non-homers is that your definition of objective is exactly the opposite of what objective actually means.

Butyou realize you posted only the negative, right.

So?

I disagree here. I think that depth and talent across the roster is more important than 'top flight talent'. Lack of liability is more important than wealth of strength. But thats just my opinion, many may disagree.
I think that a team with a wealth of solid players, a ton of depth, and numerous picks in the prime of their careers battling for jobs is better than one with a few stars surrounded by weaknesses

History has gone against you the vast majority of the time.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

1.) Your efforts are not always such attempts

Says the drum major. :snob:

2.) There is no steady drumbeat of negativity. There is a 3 way split on the board.

People may get classified into various camps, certainly yourself and others use "homer" as an epithet. I suppose it depends on what standard you have for your sports team; I consider any season they make the playoffs as good. I enjoyed the great seasons where NE won Super bowls, and I enjoyed the excellent seasons where they fell a bit short, but were competitive. Last season was good, lots of room for improvement, but lots of positives to take from it too. People who choose to dwell on the negatives don't sell their objectivity, rather they sell apparently unreasonable standards.

3.) The overly rosy view was shown to be wrong last year. Perhaps you should be listening a little more intently to those who were pointing out the problems while the rest of you were singing hosannas.

As opposed to overly negative? You may discount my analysis, or my patience with a proven Head Coach/organization and the players they are working with, as "overly rosy," but last season was "good." Could it have been better, yep, sure could, and when I sit down and look at who NE has on the roster, how they've been playing leading up to this year, and what NE is doing in terms of team building, I guess I'm just too damned rosy for you.

Hosanna = an appeal to God for deliverance; seems an unlikely descriptive to use for the "homer" and "overly rosy" camp you are disparaging. Almost Freudian in it's "projection" aspect. :amusic:

 

[Deus Irae]

Says the drum major. :snob:

Thanks for making my point for me.

People may get classified into various camps, certainly youself and others use "homer" as an epithet. I suppose it depends on what standard you have for your sports team; I consider any season they make the playoffs as good. I enjoyed the great seasons where NE won Superbowls, and I enjoyed the excellent seasons where they fell a bit short, but were competitive. Last season was good, lots of room for improvement, but lots of positives to take from it too. People who choose to dwell on the negatives don't sell their objectivity, rather they sell apparently unreasonable standards.

1.) I don't consider homer to be a bad thing per se, any more than I think being a doubter is a bad thing per se. I consider being too 'militant' of a homer a bad thing, just as I think being too much of a Chicken Little is a bad thing. There's a difference. A homer who's willing to listen to opposing viewpoints without falling back on "But BB says" type of arguments can be an excellent person to discuss things with. You used to fall into that category. Now... not so much.

2.) Last season was not good. The son of the owner understood that. When you're used to finishing 1st in a 1000 person field, finishing 10th is not "good". It's a disappointment. That's just the reality of competitive sports. It has nothing to do with "apparently unreasonable standards", and everything to do with a raised bar.

As opposed to overly negative? You may discount my analysis, or my patience with a proven Head Coach/organization and the players they are working with, as "overly rosy," but last season was "good." Could it have been better, yep, sure could, and when I sit down and look at who NE has on the roster, how they've been playing leading up to this year, and what NE is doing in terms of team building, I guess I'm just too damned rosy for you.

Actually, I never discount your analysis. You're a great source of information. You simply have placed yourself in a position where, for some unknown reason, you've been unable to admit the truth about last season even though the team itself has done so. Belichick's generally been excellent as the team's HC/GM/etc... He's not been perfect, by any stretch, and he was terrible last year.

One can point all of that out and not be "overly negative".

Hosanna = an appeal to God for deliverance; seems an unlikely descriptive to use for the "homer" and "overly rosy" camp you are disparaging. Almost Freudian in it's "projection" aspect. :amusic:

No.... it's a comment on how y'all act towards BB.

 

[emoney_33]

This will be lost on people. Unfortunately the vast majority of the board apparently has no idea what a "vacuum" is.

A vacuum, as it pertains to this discussion, is pointless. Arguing anything with respects to decisions under the pretense of "in a vacuum" is futile, and a certain poster is using it only as bait and a fallback for his warped perception of the rules of logic.

Using the term vacuum as it pertains to this discussion is also very illogical. In Physics the term vacuum is used to discuss ideal results in a perfect test environment with 0 outside influencing factors. To attempt to apply that to decision making of something like the NFL draft is beyond pointless.

Whether many people know what a "vacuum" is or not is also irrelevant. The term is being used very disingenuously in order to create argument while maintaining a perception of correct logic. It is the consistent MO of a certain poster that clutters the board with one of the highest post-rates of any member.

 

[Clonamery]

Thanks for making my point for me.



1.) I don't consider homer to be a bad thing per se, any more than I think being a doubter is a bad thing per se. I consider being too 'militant' of a homer a bad thing, just as I think being too much of a Chicken Little is a bad thing. There's a difference. A homer who's willing to listen to opposing viewpoints without falling back on "But BB says" type of arguments can be an excellent person to discuss things with. You used to fall into that category. Now... not so much.

2.) Last season was not good. The son of the owner understood that. When you're used to finishing 1st in a 1000 person field, finishing 10th is not "good". It's a disappointment. That's just the reality of competitive sports. It has nothing to do with "apparently unreasonable standards", and everything to do with a raised bar.



Actually, I never discount your analysis. You're a great source of information. You simply have placed yourself in a position where, for some unknown reason, you've been unable to admit the truth about last season even though the team itself has done so. Belichick's generally been excellent as the team's HC/GM/etc... He's not been perfect, by any stretch, and he was terrible last year.

One can point all of that out and not be "overly negative".



No.... it's a comment on how y'all act towards BB.

Is there such a thing as "clinical pedagoguery?"