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Belichick is rebuilding for 2012


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Mayo wasn't even the team's second best defensive player last season. That honor goes to Wilfork.


Springs is getting paid a fair sum of money to not play. How is that not being pointed out by even those defending Belichick to the death?

I'd take Vrabel over Burgess 24/7/365. What's more, if they'd kept Vrabel and Seymour, they could still be running more 3-4 defense, which is more suited for the players on the defensive line. Instead, in a season with major changeover in the front office and at offensive coordinator, the coach decided to add "defensive scheme change and massive personnel overhaul" to his already overloaded plate, to forego bringing in someone to help with the offense, to sit Brady in preseason when he could have been playing him, and to cut bait with a receiver rather than finding a way to make it work by using some of his trademark adaptation.

The result is a team that could have been a Super Bowl favorite, but is, instead, a back of the line playoff team right now.

What are you trying to say? That if we had Seymour and Vrabel we win the game last night? We had this same argument after the Colts game. Vrabel is too slow to cover any WRs, TEs and RBs, so he wouldnt have done anything. Seymour would not have had an impact either. 1 sack, maybe? Big deal.

These players are not much of an upgrade to what we have, if at all.
 
Teams have been taking advantage of Koppen on running plays. I don't know if he's been injured the past two years, but he doesn't hold the point of attack too well. Maroney has been hit in the backfield by Koppen's guy too often.

Koppen used to be pretty good, but his play has suffered since the super bowl against the Giants. For the past two years, Koppen loses his blocks during the run and pass. Last off season, I was hoping the Pats were going to go after Matt Birk and they didn't. In addition, as much as people hate Kevin Mawae on this board, he was almost a Patriot in 2006.
 
What are you trying to say? That if we had Seymour and Vrabel we win the game last night? We had this same argument after the Colts game. Vrabel is too slow to cover any WRs, TEs and RBs, so he wouldnt have done anything. Seymour would not have had an impact either. 1 sack, maybe? Big deal.

These players are not much of an upgrade to what we have, if at all.

Well, see, here's where we disagree in our approach.

You want to massage Belichick so badly that you're happy to talk down former players. On the other hand, I want to judge without a bias and without being either a homer or an 'anti' fan, so I don't have to pretend Seymour wasn't the team's best defensive player last year, Vrabel wouldn't have done better than Burgess, the team's going for youth by bringing in Springs and Burgess, Wilhite's better than Hobbs would have been, etc....

And anyone who's seen this team's run defense and pass rushing struggles, and still wants to claim that "Seymour would not have had an impact either", is in a state of total denial.
 
I have no beef with Sanders, he's just not a good player. He doesn't belong out there with the starters and is now our 4th safety and mostly playing ST where he truly belongs. So my issue is that we signed him to a $3 million a year contract where we should have used the money elsewhere.

Teams have been taking advantage of Koppen on running plays. I don't know if he's been injured the past two years, but he doesn't hold the point of attack too well. Maroney has been hit in the backfield by Koppen's guy too often.

To be fair, a cursory look at the data (Maroney's situational stats) shows that the best place for the Patriots to run this season is center-right, and straight up the middle is the best of all, and that the left side of the line has been the problem. This matches what my eyes have seen.

Laurence Maroney - New England Patriots - Situational Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Taylor's numbers don't show a major problem up the middle, either:

Fred Taylor - New England Patriots - Situational Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

And Morris was just struggling in general:

Sammy Morris - New England Patriots - Situational Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Frankly, I'd love to see the Patriots report card on Mankins for this season.
 
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Well, see, here's where we disagree in our approach.

You want to massage Belichick so badly that you're happy to talk down former players. On the other hand, I want to judge without a bias and without being either a homer or an 'anti' fan, so I don't have to pretend Seymour wasn't the team's best defensive player last year, Vrabel wouldn't have done better than Burgess, the team's going for youth by bringing in Springs and Burgess, Wilhite's better than Hobbs would have been, etc....

And anyone who's seen this team's run defense and pass rushing struggles, and still wants to claim that "Seymour would not have had an impact either", is in a state of total denial.

I am not talking down on Vrabel. He is simply old and doesnt have the speed as he did earlier in his career. I thought that Seymour was overrated when he was here. He was injury prone and inconsistant.

Our DL has had its injuries all season long, I dont think there has been a game that they have been fully heathly. Our rush defense is average, 16th in the league. We're 12th in total defense. Thats better than most people thought going into this season. Our defense is not struggling. With all your comments about keeping players and such you are focusing too much on the present, in football you do need to think of the next few years down the line and think about your team then too. The Pats absolutely made the right decision getting rid of Seymour, why wouldnt you trade a year of Seymour for a top 10/5 pick?
 
To be fair, a cursory look at the data (Maroney's situational stats) shows that the best place for the Patriots to run this season is center-right, and straight up the middle is the best of all, and that the left side of the line has been the problem. This matches what my eyes have seen.

Laurence Maroney - New England Patriots - Situational Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Taylor's numbers don't show a major problem up the middle, either:

Fred Taylor - New England Patriots - Situational Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

And Morris was just struggling in general:

Sammy Morris - New England Patriots - Situational Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Frankly, I'd love to see the Patriots report card on Mankins for this season.


Right. But if you look at our blocking schemes when we run up the middle, Koppen is usually involved in a double team. The issue with him is when he has to single handedly block a DL. It's noticeable when we run to the edges and he has to take on a guy all by himself.
 
Frankly, I'd love to see the Patriots report card on Mankins for this season.

Couple questions:

1) Do you think Mankins has struggled this season?

2) Do you think he'll be re-signed?
 
The pats have probably their worst performance in picking plug in Free Agents

There have been a few good ones but usually Pats take a gamble on say a McGowan for short money and hope they can improve. Unfortunately seems like only a 1 and four chance of success. Obviously a cap management issue but can mean the difference between JAG and playmaker


Overall Draft has been good
 
Couple questions:

1) Do you think Mankins has struggled this season?

2) Do you think he'll be re-signed?

1.) My eyes tell me that Mankins has been the team's worst run blocker in straight ahead blocking this season. I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me.

Now, this comes with an asterisk, because I don't expect the center to dominate in the running game without help. Those types of centers are rarities even among the best in the business. Therefore, it's possible that what I'm seeing is an inability of Mankins to handle his man while helping Koppen on plays calling for it. I don't believe that to be the case, because Neal's getting it done, but it's possible.

2.) Not if he wants top 5 money. This team could be making changes at 3-4 positions on the line very easily, and I don't think they'll break the bank for Mankins. I used to think he might be the best in the game, but he hasn't seemed the same since he was dominated in the Super Bowl. He played well last season, but something was missing. This season seems to be a significant downturn, from what I've seen.

Another asterisk here is that I haven't really focused on his play when I've gone back and re-watched the games, so it's all based upon single looks and in-game replays.
 
I am not talking down on Vrabel. He is simply old and doesnt have the speed as he did earlier in his career. I thought that Seymour was overrated when he was here. He was injury prone and inconsistant.

You are talking down Vrabel and you don't understand line play if you think Seymour was overrated. He's a 2 gap 3-4 defensive end who demands double teams. That means that he and Wilfork would sometimes take up 4 players against the run, which frees up the rest of the team to make plays. To claim he wouldn't make a difference when he so clearly did last season is just ridiculous.

Our DL has had its injuries all season long, I dont think there has been a game that they have been fully heathly. Our rush defense is average, 16th in the league. We're 12th in total defense. Thats better than most people thought going into this season. Our defense is not struggling. With all your comments about keeping players and such you are focusing too much on the present, in football you do need to think of the next few years down the line and think about your team then too. The Pats absolutely made the right decision getting rid of Seymour, why wouldnt you trade a year of Seymour for a top 10/5 pick?

The Patriots are 23rd against the run, not 16th, and I've already gone over the 'why' of the Seymour trade time and again.

And to claim that this defense is not struggling is just more denial.
 
too bad Brady will be 35 then.

Great plan- spend the second half of your all-time-great QB's prime in rebuilding mode.
 
too bad Brady will be 35 then.

Great plan- spend the second half of your all-time-great QB's prime in rebuilding mode.

People have ripped Jacobs for decades for taking the same approach to the Bruins that Kraft/Belichick are now taking with the Patriots. The difference is Brady.
 
You are talking down Vrabel and you don't understand line play if you think Seymour was overrated. He's a 2 gap 3-4 defensive end who demands double teams. That means that he and Wilfork would sometimes take up 4 players against the run, which frees up the rest of the team to make plays. To claim he wouldn't make a difference when he so clearly did last season is just ridiculous.


The Patriots are 23rd against the run, not 16th, and I've already gone over the 'why' of the Seymour trade time and again.

And to claim that this defense is not struggling is just more denial.

They are 16th, I dont know where you saw 23rd...

2009 NFL Team Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

We got rid of Seymour as a chance to improve our team for the future and because we thought we had the players on our roster to replace him. I think Warren and Green are highly capable of doing that
 
They are 16th, I dont know where you saw 23rd...

2009 NFL Team Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

We got rid of Seymour as a chance to improve our team for the future and because we thought we had the players on our roster to replace him. I think Warren and Green are highly capable of doing that

23rd, not 16th:

NFL Stats: by Team Category

and Warren and Green are nowhere near "capable of doing that". Warren is being Warren, which is what he's supposed to be, and Green can't hold Seymour's jock. There is nobody on this roster that is adequately replacing Seymour. Nobody is even coming close.
 
23rd, not 16th:

NFL Stats: by Team Category

and Warren and Green are nowhere near "capable of doing that". Warren is being Warren, which is what he's supposed to be, and Green can't hold Seymour's jock. There is nobody on this roster that is adequately replacing Seymour. Nobody is even coming close.

Depends on what catagory you look at for defense.

Why dont you just become a Raiders fan with all your love for Seymour? They need fans like you
 
Mayo wasn't even the team's second best defensive player last season. That honor goes to Wilfork.



Springs is getting paid a fair sum of money to not play. How is that not being pointed out by even those defending Belichick to the death? (disclaimer: I've never been a huge Springs fan, but I had no real problem with the move. I considered it an upgrade over the #2s of last year. I think it's a bad signing in conjunction with the Hobbs trade, but I was fine with it on its own. It's been a mistake in hindsight, but I understood it at the time.)

I'd take Vrabel over Burgess 24/7/365. What's more, if they'd kept Vrabel and Seymour, they could still be running more 3-4 defense, which is more suited for the players on the defensive line. Instead, in a season with major changeover in the front office and at offensive coordinator, the coach decided to add "defensive scheme change and massive personnel overhaul" to his already overloaded plate, to forego bringing in someone to help with the offense, to sit Brady in preseason when he could have been playing him, and to cut bait with a receiver rather than finding a way to make it work by using some of his trademark adaptation.

The result is a team that could have been a Super Bowl favorite, but is, instead, a back of the line playoff team right now.

That pretty much sums it up. Belichick bit off more than he could chew this year, plain and simple. The crazy thing is that the Pats are still a pretty good team- capable of beating anyone in the AFC, so that's something. The problem is that that, relative to what we could have been (SB favorites, playing on a level similar to that of the Saints) is a pretty steep decline.

We have a recovering QB who we're counting on to win games, an injured WR who we're counting on to make huge plays while he's obviously struggling, a slot WR who is so overused that he may set the record for catches despite missing 2 games, and who is now getting hammered every time he catches the ball because defenses know what we're doing with him. We have an OL that can only function if Neal is healthy, a talented young RB who can dominate when we let him get into a rhythm, but we never do, an injured ILB who it certainly appears that we brought back too early, likely because Junior Seau is his top backup, a weak pass-rush in which TBC is our most credible threat, and we traded our #1 CB for a second-day draft pick, only to still not have a #2 this year (anyone still think we couldn't use Hobbs after last night?).

I honestly never questioned a single move that Belichick made before this year, even when I probably should have. But this year is a complete mystery to me- in many respects, I just don't get what Belichick is after. In the past, whatever else you were to say about the moves he was making, they all mad sense as part of a clear plan. Whether or not you agreed with a move, it was clearly part of a larger philosophy or team movement. Maybe I'm just totally missing the boat here, but I don't see what he's trying to accomplish right now in the 'big picture' sense.This team could be so much better than it is, but we insist on trading away key assets for second-day picks and picks 2 years down the road, while doing nothing for units that obviously need help. I'm sure that Belichick has an endgame in mind, but I just can't see it from here, given everything that he's doing.

And if he really is rebuilding for 2012, then that scares me too. Guys like Tom Brady come along once or twice per generation. When you have them, you do everything that you can to win during their prime, because that's a competitive advantage that you're probably not getting back once it's gone. This year and next year's draft are the last crops that will be likely to 'mature' during Brady's prime: that's why I loved the Vollmer, Chung, and Ohrenberger picks this year, and wonder why we're still seemingly relying on Crable and Crable alone to turn into something as a pass-rusher (pro-tip: it's not going to happen).

When the Seymour trade happened, I was extremely vocal about how I hated it for this exact reason: sure, it'll be swell if our 2011 draft pick is an all-pro by 2013, but Brady will be 36 then. If I had to choose between the two, I'd rather be a top-tier SB contender for the next 3 years than a perennial second-tier contender for the next 6 or 7.
 
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Depends on what catagory you look at for defense.

Why dont you just become a Raiders fan with all your love for Seymour? They need fans like you

Yes, my pointing out that the defense is missing Seymour and that he was an excellent player is exactly the same as being a Seymour fan rather than a Patriots fan. :rolleyes:

Get back to me when you can dialogue at a level about elementary school.


P.S. As for your earlier comment:

I think you criticize BB way too much.

go back and see my posts about spygate, just for starters. I defend or criticize as I think is merited, based upon right and wrong, not based upon what uniform is being worn.
 
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Seymour didn't need to be "gone" after this season, because he could have been kept, along with Wilfork, in the uncapped year. The Patriots realized that and traded him anyway.

Assuming next year is uncapped, there is no artificial cap on salaries. However, there's still a practical cap on what Kraft can afford to spend.

Why you would want to lessen your chances of winning a Super Bowl for a two round draft pick improvement 2 years down the line when you've already got a boatload of draft picks is beyond me.

The number of comp picks you get is dependent, in part, on the sheer number of qualifying FAs you sign. If you sign more qualifying FAs than you lose, regardless of the size of the contracts, you get no comp picks. If you sign the same number—which, if you're limited to replacing FAs you've lost, is quite possible—the best you can do is a single comp 7.
 
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