Belichick is a scouting genius!

[Gwedd]

One thing that did impress me about him was how he handled pressure and stress. He got his butt handed to him by Giants 1st team and 2nd team. I mean I almost felt sorry for the guy while watching but he kept his poise and evetually got into rythm. That's one thing I didn't see when watching KOC. While his arm strength was bit underwhelming and he almost got Greg Lewis killed, I think he can be serviceable back up. Isn't that what you want from back up QB? Poised, not making stupid mistakes? He doesn't have to be world beater, just adequate player.

Agreed. And let's not forget that he was playing behind the 2nd team O-Line against the Giant's 1st string.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Ok, I will conceed deer in the headlight was too strong of a statement, but he played like crap other than one game last preseason.

Again, Hoyer had a good night last night and deserved to finish the game, but let put it in perspective that it was only one game. Personally I thought last night was a battle to win the number 3 spot behind Brady and most likely AJ Feeley. Hoyer won that spot from Walter who I expect will be cut soon. Hoyer might turn into an excellent player, but let's not go overboard based on one game.

Like Bill Parcells said, "Let's not put him in Canton just yet" (granted the ironic thing it was about a player who is going to Canton,). It was one good game and we have no idea how much of it was him or the competition.

As for Cassel, Cassel did regress after a strong start. He went almost two complete preseasons and a regular season without a TD. Belichick felt strongly enough about his talent to keep him. We have no idea how Hoyer will progress or if he will progress at all.

You just don't get it. Cassel didn't ever regress. Impressing fans and mediots on the field has nothing to do with impressing BB and the coaches on the field and in practices and camps. Had he regressed he'd be gone, like KOC. We have no idea what Hoyer's ceiling is or if he will continue to progress, but BB seems to think he has better upside than KOC and Walter. That's quite an endorsement for an UDFA QB.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

One day BB should try and talk Flutie into coaching. He'd be invaluable as a QB's coach. He taught Cassel that learning to emulate Brady was his best shot at sticking on this roster and finding his way to one of his own. If Hoyer has that temperment, he could find himself on the Cassel track. None of them will ever be Brady, but if they can become 80-90% of Brady they can have a long and lucrative career in this league. Zo earlier said something similar. Some coaches like to have a backup who represents a radical change of pace. Only that presents some problems for the rest of the offense (including the starting OL and receivers) for whom it's always prefereble to have a guy who represents similarity to the starter to the greatest extent possible - particularly when the starter is a HOF'er. Reads, cadeneces, protections, preferences, temperement...

 

[DaBruinz]

Once again Bill Belichick has demonstrated that he is a draft guru, "par excellance". He picked up a forgotten and overlooked QB who had a mediocre college career,while playing on a poor team, and found the spark of a NFL caliber QB.

He has now found what appear to be three NFL QBs. For the grand total of a 6th, 7th round and now an UDFA, no pick at all. Meanwhile other teams bust consistently on First Round "Can't Miss", rookie phenoms, who nevertheless... do.

Brian Hoyer goes 18 for 25, and 242 yards, 1 TD and 0 INTs in his FIRST start. I'm glad to see him succeed, but with the cutting of Kevin O'Connell, a third round pick last week, that caused a stir throughout the league, and this performance, I fear it will be impossible to hide Brian Hoyer on the Practice Squad now. What a pleasant problem to have.

I was very impressed with Brian Hoyers POISE and composure when he played in the tail end of th Bengals game. He didn't produce gaudy stats; but he piloted and led the team from the moment he set foot on the field, in a totally unflappable way, a long time veteran would. Now this performance!

Do you think the perennial Belichick bashers like the capt and company will stop yelling about a wasted draft pick and or giving up on a guy too soon, for KOC? Probably not. But the second guessing by everyone else surely will.

Comments?

I think that you forgetting about the 4th round pick spent on Davey and the 3rd round pick spent on O'Connell doesn't do your argument justice..

I think that its also WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY to earlier to be crowning Hoyer the next Cassel.

 

[Rob0729]

You just don't get it. Cassel didn't ever regress. Impressing fans and mediots on the field has nothing to do with impressing BB and the coaches on the field and in practices and camps. Had he regressed he'd be gone, like KOC. We have no idea what Hoyer's ceiling is or if he will continue to progress, but BB seems to think he has better upside than KOC and Walter. That's quite an endorsement for an UDFA QB.

He did regress last preseason, but it probably wasn't all his fault. What impressed Belichick about Cassel was he never made the same mistake twice which means he learned from his mistakes, but it doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes. Young players do regress and teams have to weigh the upside and the possibility of regaining traction vs. moving on. Even if Cassel did regress, it wouldn't mean Belichick would give up on the guy if he thought he could work his way out of it.

It could be an endorsement or a damnation of O'Connell and Walter. I never thought Walter had much of a shot of making the team in the first place. O'Connell showed Belichick something so bad that he didn't even try hold onto him long enough to see if he could get something in trade.

Hoyer could turn into a solid back up or even more, but my point is to start calling him the next Cassel after one preseason performance is crazy. The Pats have had plenty of developmental QBs under Belichick who have done nothing in the league. Belichick loves to tinker with developmental QBs.

 

[DaBruinz]

You just don't get it. Cassel didn't ever regress. Impressing fans and mediots on the field has nothing to do with impressing BB and the coaches on the field and in practices and camps. Had he regressed he'd be gone, like KOC. We have no idea what Hoyer's ceiling is or if he will continue to progress, but BB seems to think he has better upside than KOC and Walter. That's quite an endorsement for an UDFA QB.

MO - Sorry to disagree with you, but Cassel did regress during his 2nd season. And, if the Pats had so much confidence in him, why not go to him more during the 2007 season when they had large leads on teams..

Yes, I was one who said Cassel was staying over Gutierrez. Mainly because I looked at the individual situations like BB said to do during one of his pressers. And when I did that, Cassel had shown he'd done more in the situational parts of the game than Gutierrez had.

But Cassel had regressed from his 1st year to his 2nd year. Yes, he improved from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. But not enough in the 2nd to 3rd to justify him going in during the routs that the Pats put on until extremely late in the 4th quarter when the game was more than over.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

He did regress last preseason, but it probably wasn't all his fault. What impressed Belichick about Cassel was he never made the same mistake twice which means he learned from his mistakes, but it doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes. Young players do regress and teams have to weigh the upside and the possibility of regaining traction vs. moving on. Even if Cassel did regress, it wouldn't mean Belichick would give up on the guy if he thought he could work his way out of it.

It could be an endorsement or a damnation of O'Connell and Walter. I never thought Walter had much of a shot of making the team in the first place. O'Connell showed Belichick something so bad that he didn't even try hold onto him long enough to see if he could get something in trade.

Hoyer could turn into a solid back up or even more, but my point is to start calling him the next Cassel after one preseason performance is crazy. The Pats have had plenty of developmental QBs under Belichick who have done nothing in the league. Belichick loves to tinker with developmental QBs.

He didn't regress. He didn't look good on TV in the pre season but he was fine in camp and the #2 consistently. What those who watch games on TV all too often fail to take into account was what everyone else was doing (or not) in relation to what the QB is doing. He was making the right reads and throws, others weren't executing or making appropriate adjustments. As a result the team wasn't moving the chains. Not his fault. Gutz took it upon himself to veer off the reservation in an effort to make plays. That to BB is failure of discipline and poise under pressure. KOC did what most all rookies do in their first pre season, what they can do. His failure was to have seriously regressed from year 1 to year 2. He could neither run the offense correctly or move the by the seat of his pants... That was an epic fail. Can't really call Gutz failure epic because he was an UDFA. But his failure was only slightly less epic.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

MO - Sorry to disagree with you, but Cassel did regress during his 2nd season. And, if the Pats had so much confidence in him, why not go to him more during the 2007 season when they had large leads on teams..

Yes, I was one who said Cassel was staying over Gutierrez. Mainly because I looked at the individual situations like BB said to do during one of his pressers. And when I did that, Cassel had shown he'd done more in the situational parts of the game than Gutierrez had.

But Cassel had regressed from his 1st year to his 2nd year. Yes, he improved from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. But not enough in the 2nd to 3rd to justify him going in during the routs that the Pats put on until extremely late in the 4th quarter when the game was more than over.

He regressed to the point he became the #2 to Brady on a team with no #3...LOL

 

[DaBruinz]

He regressed to the point he became the #2 to Brady on a team with no #3...LOL

Vinny Testaverde says "HI" and reminds you that he was injured and recuperating. Once he was healthy, the Pats were quick to sign him and make Vinny the #2. Sorry that you don't remember that, Mo. Must be that selective memory thing or its just you not wanting to admit reality. But you are usually better than that.

EDIT: The number 2 job was HANDED to Cassel because Flutie retired. And its not like there was that much TC competition from JT O'Sullivan.

 

[patchick]

EDIT: The number 2 job was HANDED to Cassel because Flutie retired.

True...but Flutie said one of the reasons he retired was that Cassel had already passed him on the depth chart.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Vinny Testaverde says "HI" and reminds you that he was injured and recuperating. Once he was healthy, the Pats were quick to sign him and make Vinny the #2. Sorry that you don't remember that, Mo. Must be that selective memory thing.

He was not injured or recuperating, he was old. He was brought into camp and then cut, and he was signed as the #3 to be a veteran presence and sounding board for Brady when the roster allowed BB the flexibility to add that piece as insurance down the stretch. Tom was having a lousy seasonal experience given the Deion debaucle and all...and he likely needed someone other than management to vent to about it...

If you don't believe me, maybe you will believe the team:

2006 Season

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2006 (3/0/0/4): Threw a touchdown pass for the 20th consecutive season, extending his own NFL record, when he found Troy Brown in the back of the end zone for a 5-yard touchdown toss against Tennessee (12/31/06) ... Signed as a free agent on Nov. 14, 2006.
at Green Bay (11/19): Saw action in a reserve role at quarterback during the final series of the Patriots' 35-0 road victory over the Packers. vs. Chicago (11/26): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 17-13 victory over the Bears. vs. Detroit (12/3): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 28-21 comeback victory over the Lions. at Miami (12/10): Inactive as the third quarterback. vs. Houston (12/17): Saw action as the third quarterback during the final series of the Patriots' commanding 40-7 victory over the Texans. at Jacksonville (12/24): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 24- 21 division-clinching win over the Jaguars. at Tennessee (12/31): Saw action in a reserve role at quarterback ... Completed two of three passes for 29 yards and a touchdown in the Patriots' 40-23 victory over the Titans ... Connected with Chad Jackson for a 23-yard reception on fourth-and-seven late in the fourth quarter ... Threw a touchdown pass for the 20th consecutive season when he found Troy Brown in the back of the end zone for a 6-yard score with 1:45 remaining in the fourth quarter.

2006 Postseason (1/0/0/2): vs N.Y. Jets (1/7): Took the final kneel-down snap at quarterback in the Patriots' 37-16 AFC Wild Card victory over the N.Y. Jets. at San Diego (1/14): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 24-21 AFC Divisional playoff victory over the Chargers. at Indianapolis (1/21): Inactive in his role as the third quarterback.

 

[DaBruinz]

True...but Flutie said one of the reasons he retired was that Cassel had already passed him on the depth chart.

In all honesty, it shouldn't have been hard to pass Flutie. At that point in his career, Flutie was really the "O'SH!T" back-up if Brady had gotten hurt so it wouldn't have been hard to pass him.. But that doesn't mean that O'Connell didn't regress from the end of season 1 to season 2. In fact, I'd say that, until Testaverde was signed, Cassel was probably putting undue pressure on himself. And, as I said, Cassel did get better from season 2 to season 3 and season 3 to season 4.

People shouldn't get all over-reactive just because someone says that Cassel regressed from season 1 to season 2. He did. There is nothing wrong in admitting that. Did he improve after that? Yep. After Vinny was signed, Cassel seemed to get better and continue getting better. Granted, he was always looking over his shoulder, but he got better.

And it culminated in last season.

 

[DaBruinz]

Mo - Nothing you posted supports the idea that Cassel hadn't regressed between seasons one and two and that the Pats brought in Testaverde because of that regression.

Not only that, nothing you posted supports this idea that they brought back Vinny T just to be a sounding board for Brady down the stretch. That was ALL mediot and fan speculation at the time.

You also have your training camps mixed up. Vinny was NOT part of the Pats 2006 training camp. The training camp you are referring to is the 2007 one. Where he signed late and then was cut.

Vinny Testaverde: Game Logs

That is the game logs from 2006. You'll notice no pre-season games for Vinny. Unlike in 2007 where he played in games 3 and 4 for the Patriots.

Vinny Testaverde: Game Logs

So please continue to post stuff that has nothing to do with your position.

He was not injured or recuperating, he was old. He was brought into camp and then cut, and he was signed as the #3 to be a veteran presence and sounding board for Brady when the roster allowed BB the flexibility to add that piece as insurance down the stretch. Tom was having a lousy seasonal experience given the Deion debaucle and all...and he likely needed someone other than management to vent to about it...

If you don't believe me, maybe you will believe the team:

2006 Season

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2006 (3/0/0/4): Threw a touchdown pass for the 20th consecutive season, extending his own NFL record, when he found Troy Brown in the back of the end zone for a 5-yard touchdown toss against Tennessee (12/31/06) ... Signed as a free agent on Nov. 14, 2006.
at Green Bay (11/19): Saw action in a reserve role at quarterback during the final series of the Patriots' 35-0 road victory over the Packers. vs. Chicago (11/26): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 17-13 victory over the Bears. vs. Detroit (12/3): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 28-21 comeback victory over the Lions. at Miami (12/10): Inactive as the third quarterback. vs. Houston (12/17): Saw action as the third quarterback during the final series of the Patriots' commanding 40-7 victory over the Texans. at Jacksonville (12/24): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 24- 21 division-clinching win over the Jaguars. at Tennessee (12/31): Saw action in a reserve role at quarterback ... Completed two of three passes for 29 yards and a touchdown in the Patriots' 40-23 victory over the Titans ... Connected with Chad Jackson for a 23-yard reception on fourth-and-seven late in the fourth quarter ... Threw a touchdown pass for the 20th consecutive season when he found Troy Brown in the back of the end zone for a 6-yard score with 1:45 remaining in the fourth quarter.

2006 Postseason (1/0/0/2): vs N.Y. Jets (1/7): Took the final kneel-down snap at quarterback in the Patriots' 37-16 AFC Wild Card victory over the N.Y. Jets. at San Diego (1/14): Inactive as the third quarterback in the Patriots' 24-21 AFC Divisional playoff victory over the Chargers. at Indianapolis (1/21): Inactive in his role as the third quarterback.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Mo - Nothing you posted supports the idea that Cassel hadn't regressed between seasons one and two and that the Pats brought in Testaverde because of that regression.

Not only that, nothing you posted supports this idea that they brought back Vinny T just to be a sounding board for Brady down the stretch. That was ALL mediot and fan speculation at the time.

You also have your training camps mixed up. Vinny was NOT part of the Pats 2006 training camp. The training camp you are referring to is the 2007 one. Where he signed late and then was cut.

Vinny Testaverde: Game Logs

That is the game logs from 2006. You'll notice no pre-season games for Vinny. Unlike in 2007 where he played in games 3 and 4 for the Patriots.

Vinny Testaverde: Game Logs

So please continue to post stuff that has nothing to do with your position.

Continue to post stuff that doesn't validate your position. Nothing you;ve posted remotely indicates Cassel regressing.

Vinny was here in TC in 2006, he just never signed. He was like a camp guest and as a FA he and Bill were free to do with that what they would. It never led to a signing.


He was the third inactive starter in 2006 after signing in mid November... He was re-signed in mid August 2007 after lobbying in the media for another shot and lasted all of two weeks, beaten out for a roster spot in by the incomparable Matt Gutierrez. He then signed with Carolina in October and proved he was no longer a viable backup option. He announced his retirement before that season ended. Flutie had more to offer in 2005 and he knew comparatively speaking he was toast. He said this team was in good hands with Cassel as the backup, and he was right.

Bill has a philosophy that a player is not a veteran until he's had 8 years in the league. In 2005 and 2006 he felt the need to provide the QB corps with a veteran presence even though Brady was already a slam dunk HOF'er. Flutie was the #2 to the rookie Cassel although it's likely he would have only filled in long enough to get the kid coached up. They started the 2006 season with Cassel as the #2. Then they added Vinny in mid November AS THE THIRD INACTIVE QB. They needed another arm since they had no one on the PS. They signed Gutz following the 2007 draft and he beat Vinny out FOR THE #3 QB slot in camp. Vinny was NEVER a #2 here.

 

[olschool]

Now that Walter is gone, it's Brady, Hoyer and ? Verrry interesting.
AJ Feeley will be cut, is BB feelin' it ?

 

[DaBruinz]

Continue to post stuff that doesn't validate your position. Nothing you;ve posted remotely indicates Cassel regressing.

Vinny was here in TC in 2006, he just never signed. He was like a camp guest and as a FA he and Bill were free to do with that what they would. It never led to a signing.

Being a guest and watching stuff is not even remotely close to taking part in camp. And he wasn't a daily figure in camp either..

EDIT: BTW, nice back track here. You go from claiming that Vinny T was in camp and was cut to saying that he was just a guest. You can't even admit you were wrong about that. Well done there.

Sorry, Mo, but I've supported the fact that Cassel regressed and it was clear if you bothered to actually WATCH the 2006 pre-season.

If Cassel hadn't regressed from his first season to his second, why bring in Testaverde as a player? Why not just bring him in as a coach or an advisor if Brady needed a "sounding board" per your claim.

Sorry, Mo, but I may be wrong about Vinny being the #2, but nothing you've shown has supported your idea that Cassel was head and shoulders over anyone else nor that the Pats were sold on him completely.

Not only that, you completely ignored the fact that the Pats could have gone to him more during the 2007 season if they were so sold on him per your claim, yet they didn't. He saw all of 5 series the entire season. A season where the Pats had NUMEROUS blow-outs where they could have gone to him earlier and chose not to. Yet, you conveniently ignore that.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Vinny Testaverde says "HI" and reminds you that he was injured and recuperating. Once he was healthy, the Pats were quick to sign him and make Vinny the #2. Sorry that you don't remember that, Mo. Must be that selective memory thing or its just you not wanting to admit reality. But you are usually better than that.

Even if they wanted Vinny as the #2 (which he never was), once they made Cassel the holder for Gostkowski, that plan would have had to go out the window.

And, in any case, if they were concerned about Cassel in the preseason, why on earth would they have started the season with just him behind Brady?

 

[puffyme]

Missing CB Sean Smith 4 times in round 2, not exactly genius.

Does anybody but a troll ever use chowda or beans as part of their name. Crawl back in your hole.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, Belichick's confidence in Cassel prior to him winning the starting roll last year might be overstated. Don't forget that both Chris Simms and Tim Rattay were both scheduled to come in for a workout the day after Brady was injured (they were scheduled before Brady got hurt) and then were sent away because they felt at that point Cassel would have to be the starter and having one of them looking over his shoulder would be counter productive. The question is whether they were coming in to potentially join the team and fight for the #2 QB spot with Cassel. I am sure the reason they weren't on the team before the opening game is because Belichick didn't want to guarantee their salary in case they didn't pick up the offense.

Personally, I think we could see the same thing this year with someone to compete with Hoyer. Unless they trade for Feeley (because his contract would be guaranteed anyway if they traded for him after the first game) or another trade for a QB, the Pats may not add a veteran QB for the #2 spot until a week from this upcoming Tuesday.

Also, adding O'Connell also indicated that the Patriots were considering moving on from Cassel after last year whether he had this career boost or not. That may also indicate that the Pats weren't as high on Cassel as we think.

Without knowing what goes on behind closed doors with Belichick, we will never know if Simms and Rattay were just being worked out in case of an emergency or that they were going to be brought in to compete with Cassel because the Patriots were concerned if Cassel could handle the back up job. The Pats admitted that they sent the two QBs home because they felt it would be counterproductive to have them now that Cassel was going to be the #1 QB for good or bad. If Brady was still healthy, one of them could have been signed and possibly been the #2 QB once they picked up the offense. We will never know though.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

If Brady was still healthy, one of them could have been signed and possibly been the #2 QB once they picked up the offense. We will never know though.

Then again, for all we know, they could have been ready to ditch O'Connell too after last preseason. [Note: I'm not saying they were, merely that we can't rule that out.]