Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kicker

[MoLewisrocks]

The former ST coach seems to think that whomever votes or sets the criteria has it wrong. And not just about kickers. There is little rhyme or reason to the selection process. Some guys never win but get in on stats. Others win a lot but never put up stats. Some guys were pretty good for a long time. Others were otherworldly but only for a brief time. It really is a joke. As are most things the spin or agenda driven media votes on. They seldom do any better than biased and uninformed fans. Or coaches playing politics or players who are often more impressionable and knuckleheaded than any group.

Should probably have a blue ribbon committee handling the final voting. And one day Bill should have a seat on that committee along with several geniune football historians who can look past the hoopla and spin and agenda driven politics.

Belichick finds it hard to believe only one kicker is in Canton | ProFootballTalk

 

[alvinnf]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Ray guy baby!
5 yrs after Adam V retires, there will be two!

 

[RayClay]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

“He’s certainly one of the greatest kickers I’ve ever seen since I’ve been in the league [1975]. The longevity, the production, the performance in championships and big games, ...

I mean, what more could he do? What more could he do? Go out and play wide receiver and catch a bunch of passes. I don’t know

Ahem *Gino clears throat*

You mean like 292 career receptions, 7 seasons of 30 or more with a 15.7 yard average?

 

[IndianPat]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Ray Guy slammed the HOF this week for ignoring the punters. Today, Belichick's comments question the criteria for induction into HOF and indirectly supported Ray Guy's complaint regarding the HOF.
I expect Peter King to have a long piece in his weekly MMQB regarding the place of kickers and punters in HOF. King has been known to defend the HOF selection committee and the same time is about the only writer who tries to bring some transparency to the HOF selection process.
Ray Guy referred to one powerful individual on the selection committee known to make or break selections. Anybody have any idea who this person might be?

 

[Patriot Missile]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

What they need to do is open up a slot in the voting for special teams. Like it or not there are 3 phases in this game and they should be rewarded for their contributions.

Is someone like Devon Hester gonna have no shot because he was a subpar wr? He is the best we've seen in this decade.

Shane Lechler? Again best in this decade.

There are a lot of gunners/aces that were overlooked over the century that were the best at their position for many years during their careers. Its time they were rewarded.

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Gale Sayers and Joe Namath being in the HOF completely invalidates the importance of being in the HOF.

 

[patsfan13]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Gale Sayers and Joe Namath being in the HOF completely invalidates the importance of being in the HOF.

Gayle Sayers was Emmitt Smith + Barry Sanders + Devin Hester (returner), though his career was cut short by injuries + lack of medical technology, during his time n the league he dominated the games he played in.

Definite HOF player.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

What they need to do is open up a slot in the voting for special teams. Like it or not there are 3 phases in this game and they should be rewarded for their contributions.

Is someone like Devon Hester gonna have no shot because he was a subpar wr? He is the best we've seen in this decade.

Shane Lechler? Again best in this decade.

There are a lot of gunners/aces that were overlooked over the century that were the best at their position for many years during their careers. Its time they were rewarded.

Great idea.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Ray guy baby!
5 yrs after Adam V retires, there will be two!

Absolutely!! Best clutch kicker I've ever seen.

It's a shame he ever left the Patriots. Something about the Patriots and a cap on the $$ value slotted for the kicking position......

Might have won that 1st SB against the Giants had Vin still been here. Still can't figure out why BB refused to let Gost try that kick.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that there is something wrong with a process that turns the decision over HOF admission to 44 sports writers or mediots, who are beholden (for access, interviews and their very livelihood) to the teams on whose players they are going to vote for admission. Many of these electors have been on the committee for years, if not decades.

The entire process is incestuous, dishonest and heavily tilted towards large media markets or specific teams' markets.

The "At Large" electors are all from major markets; Florida has four votes (two in Miami); New York has two votes; Pennsylvania has two votes; the Bay Area has two votes; Texas has two votes; Green Bay and Chicago combine for two very proximate votes in Illinois and Wisconsin; Cincinnati and Cleveland each have a vote in Ohio...but the entire New England region has one vote. You are not going to convince me that someone is more inclined to vote for players whom he has followed closely for years.

Imagine, for example, the direct or subtle pressure that can be brought to bear on a Peter King by teams whose alumni are up for consideration; the quality of his columns and TV spots is a direct function of his ability to get information that you and I do not have about teams and players and then make beaucoup bucks by packaging and disseminating that information on SI and ESPN. The fact that Peter King himself might be purer than Caesar's wife is irrelevant; the potential for corruption and unfairness is just too great.

That is more or less the definition of a "corrupt system."


Selection Process

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

This is the list of voters, most of whom like supreme court judges vote for life. One of whom we know in our experience doesn't even primarily cover the sport any more. Boxing and recently golf garner a good deal of his attention. Among the 33 voters represending NFL franchise cities (and frankly if the Jets and Giants can share a stadium they should be fine sharing a vote and not two) you should at minimum have to remain primarily an NFL mediot and not some commentator at large. Speaking of which the 11 at large delegates and the PFWA rep should be replaced with an equal number of true football historians and current members of the HOF. A group I'd wager would be less suseptible to hype and spin.

Don't know who Guy is referring to but there have certainly been cases in the past including here on Will McDonough's watch when deserving players candidacy didn't reveive the necessary support from the outset and opportunity was lost. Borges actually had to come back and revisit and refocus the committe on Tip. Many present day voters didn't have the exposure to great players playing outside their geographical area or playing before their time because the games weren't as widely available back in the day. And there was no concept like fantasy football then, either. Just as an example, and I think he's an otherwise bright guy, it's not that long ago Mike Sando was a blogger in the Seattle area whose claim to fame was outing Borges as a plagerer...

There certainly remains a bias among hall voters. King alludes to it regularly. Safeties are a tough sell and place kickers and punters certainly remain the step children of the process. If guys and positions get voted to pro bowls and garner all pro selections, they should have an equal selection shot when it comes to the pro football HOF.

Being a truly dominant force at your position for a sustained period of time should also carry more significance in the deliberation than mere longevity or cumulative stats based largely on that longevity. Impact relative to your peers during the 8-12 year period that most players perform during should be the over riding consideration. Not every player who reaches some statistical plateau is truly HOF worthy. And that is going to become more evident as this modern era progresses.

I hear Dwayne Bowe has backtracked from his earlier grumblings about wanting to be traded from KC. Now he wants to finish his career there and go into the Hall as a Chief... Give me an effin' break.


Selection Process

 

[patsfan13]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

HOF players are players who change how your team or the other team play the game. In the case of kickers if affects whether you go for it on 4th down or take the FG, do you play for FG position at the end of the game or become more aggressive looking for a chip shot/TD at the end of the game?

Do you have the confidence to punt on 4th cause you Guy can pin the other team deep late in the game?

ST's are 1/3 of the game, along with the O & D, there are certainly ST players who change how you play the game tactically.

For positions players they are the guys the opposition HAVE to game plan around. Longevity and Stats don't tell the whole story. I think of the segment on the 2009 season (BB Football Life) where Brady and BB talk about Ed Reed, and how account ing for Ed influenced HOW the O needed to play. THAT is what being a HOF player is all about.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

What they need to do is open up a slot in the voting for special teams. Like it or not there are 3 phases in this game and they should be rewarded for their contributions.

Is someone like Devon Hester gonna have no shot because he was a subpar wr? He is the best we've seen in this decade.

Shane Lechler? Again best in this decade.

There are a lot of gunners/aces that were overlooked over the century that were the best at their position for many years during their careers. Its time they were rewarded.

Its the Hall of Fame. Its for the best of the best, not the best role players.
You simply cannot put a guy who was good at covering kicks but not good enouhg to have a real position in the HOF while leaving out excellent, but not 'best of best' players. Matthew Slater is not a better football player than Logan Mankins.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Heck - given the role he played in the Giants Super Bowls, when it comes to kickers I think Scott Norwood should be a shoe in for induction.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Its the Hall of Fame. Its for the best of the best, not the best role players.
You simply cannot put a guy who was good at covering kicks but not good enouhg to have a real position in the HOF while leaving out excellent, but not 'best of best' players. Matthew Slater is not a better football player than Logan Mankins.

I disagree with your first premise, and it would seem Bill does as well. They're all real positions and role players and each role has it's significance. The HOF should always be reserved for the best of the best. It is not the Hall of the Very Good. I don't see it shaking out this way due to the nature of the beast, but if Slater turned out to be such a premier gunner that he hung around for a decade and was an impact player and all pro or pro bowl selection more often than not...and he exhibited that level of play in both regular and post season performances, then he might in fact be more deserving than a LG who has struggled in post seasons and is already experiencing substantial durability issues. A better analogy might be Adam and Logan, and to this point in time Adam is way more deserving based on his impact on two franchises as well as 4 rings.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

I disagree with your first premise, and it would seem Bill does as well. They're all real positions and role players and each role has it's significance. The HOF should always be reserved for the best of the best. It is not the Hall of the Very Good. I don't see it shaking out this way due to the nature of the beast, but if Slater turned out to be such a premier gunner that he hung around for a decade and was an impact player and all pro or pro bowl selection more often than not...and he exhibited that level of play in both regular and post season performances, then he might in fact be more deserving than a LG who has struggled in post seasons and is already experiencing substantial durability issues. A better analogy might be Adam and Logan, and to this point in time Adam is way more deserving based on his impact on two franchises as well as 4 rings.

I could not disagree more.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

The former ST coach seems to think that whomever votes or sets the criteria has it wrong. And not just about kickers. There is little rhyme or reason to the selection process. Some guys never win but get in on stats. Others win a lot but never put up stats. Some guys were pretty good for a long time. Others were otherworldly but only for a brief time. It really is a joke. As are most things the spin or agenda driven media votes on. They seldom do any better than biased and uninformed fans. Or coaches playing politics or players who are often more impressionable and knuckleheaded than any group.

Should probably have a blue ribbon committee handling the final voting. And one day Bill should have a seat on that committee along with several geniune football historians who can look past the hoopla and spin and agenda driven politics.


Belichick finds it hard to believe only one kicker is in Canton | ProFootballTalk

Problem is the selection committee consists of the likes of Ron Borges, Peter King and John Clayton and they basically have a lifetime appointment.

Selection Process

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Special teams are a part of the game. If people are going to insist that punters and kickers somehow don't belong in the HOF because they're somehow not "real" or valuable football players, then that part of the game needs to be removed from the sport.

Either give them a fair shake in HOF balloting, or get rid of special teams play. Anyone who watched the Patriots-Giants Super Bowl this past season, and didn't get how important the ST play in that game was, is clueless about the sport.

 

[Avenger]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Its the Hall of Fame. Its for the best of the best, not the best role players.
You simply cannot put a guy who was good at covering kicks but not good enouhg to have a real position in the HOF while leaving out excellent, but not 'best of best' players. Matthew Slater is not a better football player than Logan Mankins.

Steve Tasker is HOF worthy

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: Belichick comments on inconsistent criteria for HOF induction & specifically kick

Gayle Sayers was Emmitt Smith + Barry Sanders + Devin Hester (returner), though his career was cut short by injuries + lack of medical technology, during his time n the league he dominated the games he played in.

Definite HOF player.

So then lets put Bo Jackson and countless others in the HOF too then?