Beisel and the new LBs coach...

[pats1]

You have game tape of games to look at?
Here is my counter to your points:
Wilfork was a first round draft pick and after waiving Traylor, there was no one to take his spot. He showed flashes last year but you are right he became rock solid towards the end. Problem I see is that Wilfork showed flashes and was a #1 pick, Beisel is neither.
Second, Pees history with Hawkins can not be compared to Beisel situation. Hawkins is a 8 year vet, who had no trouble learning his new position. He moved in, and did his job (not great but serviceable). Maybe Pees helped Hawkins along (is there proof???) but Beisel had the opprotunity and lost it.
Teaching a person who is gets it is one thing, teaching another who has struggles is another (and more difficult, if even accomplished)..

What I agree with you, the added weight should help his tackling (if he gets to the position to make the tackle). I can recall so many times watching the games live at Gillette and seeing him get dragged by the ball carrier..

Check my signature

I'm not sure if Box has seen the same, but something about Bruschi wasn't right last season. I spent a few hours this morning trying to fill in the gaps in our breakdowns, and it became more noticable as I went on. Contrary to what we saw in 2004 and before, Bruschi was really fading into the background on a lot of the plays. Instead of having him in as part of the 3-3-5 ('30') nickel package, Vrabel was the lone ILB at least in the Broncos playoff game. McGinest fell into the same category. While I may be chastised for saying this, neither Bruschi nor McGinest kept their motors rolling. Colvin was easily the MVP of the LB corps at Denver. Vrabel was a close second and was flying around the field. Bruschi, when he was out there, made a few mental mistakes and was caught out of position a few times too.

Seymour was easily the MVP of the defense line, also. The way he was shedding blocks - against different OL - so easily was astonishing. Wilfork and Warren also had a steady game, often getting penetration to force runs over to Seymour and Colvin's side.

The only play I remember Beisel in there was the 1st and Goal on the 1 right after the Samuel pass interference call. On the 6-4-1 formation, the right side of the line was loaded with McGinest, Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork. However, the Broncos ran it left where Green was kicked out, Hill was knocked down, and Beisel tried to come in to clog the hole, but the RG pulled up through, drove Beisel into the endzone, and Anderson followed right in from behind.

I wonder if Dave will have time this week to post what I've done so far with the Broncos game. Could certainly help with debates like these!

 

[Joker]

"caught out of position a few times", "made a few mental mistakes"...what a load of bull

Cite each and every mental mistake he made

delineate the exact position called for on these plays where he was "out of position"

Last time I looked you were a fan just like everybody else...stop the "Vince Lombardi" impersonations, "coach".The Patriots D and Willie and Bruschi were NOT anywhere near responsible for that loss. The defense played BETTER than Denver's you IDIOT!

 

[Richter]

On the 6-4-2 formation, the right side of the line was loaded with McGinest, Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork. However, the Broncos ran it left where Green was kicked out, Hill was knocked down, and Beisel tried to come in to clog the hole, but the LG pulled up through, drove Beisel into the endzone, and Anderson followed right in from behind.

I remember that play like it happened yesterday. Beisel looked totally overmatched. Very ugly to watch, it tempers my enthusiasm for the "new and improved" bulked up Beisel this season.

 

[pats1]

"caught out of position a few times", "made a few mental mistakes"...what a load of bull

Cite each and every mental mistake he made

delineate the exact position called for on these plays where he was "out of position"

Last time I looked you were a fan just like everybody else...stop the "Vince Lombardi" impersonations, "coach".The Patriots D and Willie and Bruschi were NOT anywhere near responsible for that loss. The defense played BETTER than Denver's you IDIOT!

a) Refer to the Patrick Pass thread. Remember what T-Shirt said about you?

b) When did I say McGinest and Bruschi lost the game? I was simply saying that Colvin and Vrabel played better.

c) It doesn't matter if the Patriots' defense played better than Denver's. It matter is the Patriots' defense can stop the Denver offense and if the Patriots' offense can beat the Denver defense.

d) I said I hope to get the game to Dave sometime this week. It's been so long already.

e) Like Box said, everything must be looked at objectively. Just because Bru and Willie have been fan favorites and damn great players over the past 10 years doesn't mean they can't make mistakes or not play well.

 

[pats1]

And on an unrelated note, I've realized how inaccurate some of the NFL play-by-play can be, from which stats derive. I'm mainly talking about tackles here. There were a lot of plays where some guys got jipped of tackles while others got credit they didn't necessarily deserve.

 

[mcsully]

Check my signature

Actually had the signatures and pictures shut off.. Had to turn it on to actually see it.

Nice website and great effort but the information stops @ game 11. Where we disagree comes from my point of view is that he never got better and rarely was on the field.. And everyone believes he got better with the defense when they peaked.. The defense got better because he was no longer playing, not because he was playing. Vrabel moved in, Hawkins played safety and Wilfork became a stud (on top of Bruschi coming back)..

 

[mcsully]

Last time I looked you were a fan just like everybody else...stop the "Vince Lombardi" impersonations, "coach".The Patriots D and Willie and Bruschi were NOT anywhere near responsible for that loss. The defense played BETTER than Denver's you IDIOT!

Two things I hope to avoid with my discussion:

1. People personally attacking one another..
2. People with 5000+ thinking they are coaches..

No one is a pro here, just fans. if you were good at scouting, you would have a job in the NFL in some capacity..

So lets talk facts and use stats to backup our opinion

 

[pats1]

Actually had the signatures and pictures shut off.. Had to turn it on to actually see it.

Nice website and great effort but the information stops @ game 11.

Yeah, I'm working to fill in the gaps in some of those games where Box or I never got to. I have a lot of the files done but the site owner, Dave, was too busy last winter to get them posted. I'll see what I can do this summer...

 

[mcsully]

Make Me A Believer

 

[Joker]

a) Refer to the Patrick Pass thread. Remember what T-Shirt said about you?
No.I don't remember what anybody writes "about" me. When I see condescending holier than thou pontifications like that crap you posted I respond. Grow some thicker skin.
b) When did I say McGinest and Bruschi lost the game? I was simply saying that Colvin and Vrabel played better.
that's YOUR opinion...not F-A-C-T...you have NO IDEA how the defense graded out individually. If Belichick said that Colvin andVrabel "played better" then I'll accept THAT. Just because you say so doesn't mean SQUAT. I watched that entire game and ran the tape back a couple of times afterwards and the team defense looked solid. Certainly nothing approaching YOUR criticism.
c) It doesn't matter if the Patriots' defense played better than Denver's. It matter is the Patriots' defense can stop the Denver offense and if the Patriots' offense can beat the Denver defense.
yeah..uh...SO WHAT? did you just write that to fill space and use letters?
d) I said I hope to get the game to Dave sometime this week. It's been so long already.

e) Like Box said, everything must be looked at objectively. Just because Bru and Willie have been fan favorites and damn great players over the past 10 years doesn't mean they can't make mistakes or not play well.
AGAIN, you must be slow witted or worse....SPECIFIC INSTANCES...EXACTLY WHICH PLAYS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?EXACTLY WHICH MISTAKES?

I think I caught you spouting off these unverifiable generalities and you didn't expect to be called on it. Do me and everyone else a favor...next time you feel this urge to be "THe Great Football Educator And World's Greatest Analyst", use this caveat..."in my opinion"....that's a lot easier to stomach

 

[BionicPatriot]

I have faith in Beisel, I really do. Now having faith and thinking he'll be a very good starter is another. I just think right now Beisel is the obvious canidate. Who else has spent a year in this system, but more importantly been out on the field executing the plays? If you people pay attention, you guys would notice once he had a better DL infront of him and Vrabel by his side, he did a damn good job.

I realize Patriot fans hate this guy, which is stupid. He blew up on a reporter when the team was strugling..That happens. But I'm willing to atleast give this guy another chance before I consider him horse **** like some people. He did improve later in the season.

 

[maverick4]

re

I realize Patriot fans hate this guy, which is stupid. He blew up on a reporter when the team was strugling..That happens. But I'm willing to atleast give this guy another chance before I consider him horse **** like some people. He did improve later in the season.

While his locker room outburst was bad, I only evaluate Beisel based on what he did on the field. I don't hate Beisel, but it's not stupid to still think he's a horrible candidate for inside linebacker. In terms of his performance later in the season, I do not remember him improving his play. Vrabel went inside with Bruschi, Beisel was benched, and Willie and Colvin played on the outside. As far as I'm concerned, the defense improved drastically after Beisel and Starks were benched (along with more aggressive play-calling).

I just think we could do better than a player who relies on speed more than he relies on intelligence or toughness or fundamental tackling.

 

[mcsully]

I am going to have to follow the same line as Maverick. My take on his performance is on the field, not off it. I don't hate anyone, dislike a bunch but never hate.
I'm not a believer in Beisel..

 

[shakadave]

I think I caught you spouting off these unverifiable generalities and you didn't expect to be called on it. Do me and everyone else a favor...next time you feel this urge to be "THe Great Football Educator And World's Greatest Analyst", use this caveat..."in my opinion"....that's a lot easier to stomach

I would like to suggest that noone talk to Joker until he promises to take a valium. Joker, your tone is far out of line IMO and this is not just a matter of our needing "thicker skin."

Also Pats1, your "unrelated note" about the official crediting of tackles is a really interesting topic --- maybe worth a whole new thread --- that I don't remember seeing discussed here before.

 

[Joker]

My tone? Who are you, the tone police?

He STATED AS FACT that Bruschi played poorly in Denver...I asked for SPECIFIC PLAYS...he came back with more generalities based on opinion...do YOU have FACTS to back up HIS statements?

 

[Joker]

Oh..and BTW..in the Denver game Bru had FOUR solo tackles..the EXACT same line as the "much better!!!!" Colvin. So right there he's basically CAUGHT LYING.

Vrabel had 7 tackles BUT only THREE solo...hardly "way better!!!!"..maybe because he had a sack, that caused Pat1 to jump to this intergalactically moronic conclusion that Bru was bad and Vrabel "way better!!!" in that game.

The point is, by both STATISTICS and VIEWING, the defense...Colvin, Bru,Vrabel and Willie...played the way they were supposed to as a unit. Nobody "played way better!!!!" than another. That is what is called a presumptive LIE.

You don't like MY TONE?? What about his thinly veiled implication that Bruschi wasn't as good as he was before the stroke...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where he's trying to go in the future with this. And I find THAT repugnant.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You have game tape of games to look at?
Here is my counter to your points:
Wilfork was a first round draft pick and after waiving Traylor, there was no one to take his spot. He showed flashes last year but you are right he became rock solid towards the end. Problem I see is that Wilfork showed flashes and was a #1 pick, Beisel is neither.
Second, Pees history with Hawkins can not be compared to Beisel situation. Hawkins is a 8 year vet, who had no trouble learning his new position. He moved in, and did his job (not great but serviceable). Maybe Pees helped Hawkins along (is there proof???) but Beisel had the opprotunity and lost it.
Teaching a person who is gets it is one thing, teaching another who has struggles is another (and more difficult, if even accomplished)..

What I agree with you, the added weight should help his tackling (if he gets to the position to make the tackle). I can recall so many times watching the games live at Gillette and seeing him get dragged by the ball carrier..

Game tape? I wish!

We make our impressions from different perspectives, your watching the game live, I'm rewinding and replaying Tivo. We're both fans trying to understand a game that, for me at least, is far beyond my high school coach's ability to teach! We're both trying to have fun, and other then a crack about we prolific poster types playing coach wannabes, I appreciate the civility of the discussion. My attitude is kind of basic, I don't write anyone off until BB cuts them, as long as they are on the team I'll keep trying to understand what they're doing wrong or right, and try to compare my observations with the handful of media guys who haven't taken talking lessons from Jim Cary movie characters. Mike Reiss and Chris Price are good examples of reporting with some objectivity, I don't think you need any pointers on who their polar opposites might be in the business!

Pats1 - Tedy was playing heavier and being used more in TJ's old role. I can't say that he was a 100% when he came back either. Whatever physical and role limitations he had to overcome, he still was two steps ahead of Vrabel making reads at the end of the season, down from three when they first started together. I'll take him as he was then if he hasn't improved in the off-season, he is still better then most any other ILB in the NFL.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Also Pats1, your "unrelated note" about the official crediting of tackles is a really interesting topic --- maybe worth a whole new thread --- that I don't remember seeing discussed here before.

Then announcers in the booth screw up credit for tackles, blocks, etc. all the time, no big whup unless you actually listen to them without garbage filters. How many times did Randy Cross and his partner call BB "Cowher" in that one game? (Miami?) As far as their call affecting a player's stats, I'm pretty sure there is an "official" scorer at the games - I recall Wilfork's "interception in the Oakland game was rescored as a fumble recovery the next day.

 

[Patjew]

Oh..and BTW..in the Denver game Bru had FOUR solo tackles..the EXACT same line as the "much better!!!!" Colvin. So right there he's basically CAUGHT LYING.

Vrabel had 7 tackles BUT only THREE solo...hardly "way better!!!!"..maybe because he had a sack, that caused Pat1 to jump to this intergalactically moronic conclusion that Bru was bad and Vrabel "way better!!!" in that game.

The point is, by both STATISTICS and VIEWING, the defense...Colvin, Bru,Vrabel and Willie...played the way they were supposed to as a unit. Nobody "played way better!!!!" than another. That is what is called a presumptive LIE.

You don't like MY TONE?? What about his thinly veiled implication that Bruschi wasn't as good as he was before the stroke...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where he's trying to go in the future with this. And I find THAT repugnant.

Joker, this is just an observation and I'm not diminishing the content of any of what you have to say, though I'm sure you're going to blast me over it: You come across as very angry in alot of your posts. You've never done it to me and I actually don't really care, but the venom and name calling... it's just weird. Anyway, blast away.

 

[pats1]

Oh..and BTW..in the Denver game Bru had FOUR solo tackles..the EXACT same line as the "much better!!!!" Colvin. So right there he's basically CAUGHT LYING.

Vrabel had 7 tackles BUT only THREE solo...hardly "way better!!!!"..maybe because he had a sack, that caused Pat1 to jump to this intergalactically moronic conclusion that Bru was bad and Vrabel "way better!!!" in that game.

The point is, by both STATISTICS and VIEWING, the defense...Colvin, Bru,Vrabel and Willie...played the way they were supposed to as a unit. Nobody "played way better!!!!" than another. That is what is called a presumptive LIE.

You don't like MY TONE?? What about his thinly veiled implication that Bruschi wasn't as good as he was before the stroke...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where he's trying to go in the future with this. And I find THAT repugnant.

Like many others have said, you'll get respect and whatever else you want if you just calm the hell down! Enough with the overreacting and virtual screaming.

What do you want me to do? Post hundreds of MBs worth of game tape?

As a unit, they certainly played great as a unit in the playoffs. Colvin was noticeably making the plays while Bruschi well, wasn't really.

The first play that comes to mind is a scramble by Plummer where Seymour and Green (I believe - or maybe Willie) pinched Plummer and forced him to run, but Bruschi was looking over Hobbs' way and yelling towards him, and didn't notice Plummer's scramble right away. By the time he did, it had gone for 16 yards and first down.

On another play, Rod Smith went on a quick slant across the middle, and Bruschi turned his back to the QB, and then turned just his head back towards Plummer to the see the pass fly to his right and into Rod Smith's hands. Just when Bruschi saw the throw coming in, he stopped straight in his tracks and Hobbs ran into his back, giving Rod Smith an uncontested catch.

Compare this to a play where Chad Brown was brought in instead of Bruschi in the 3rd quarter in a 3-3-5 formation. Brown set up low and just took out out the crossing WR Charlie Adams to force Plummer, under pressure, to throw to Anderson trying to squeeze underneath Hawkins and above a chasing Vrabel. The pass fell short. Recall the January 2005 Colts game play where Vrabel (as a ILB) took out Dallas Clark trying to go across the middle in the endzone, forcing Manning to toss it up, where Geno dropped the interception.

With the stats, they can be very misleading. Check my next post for one example. Stats also don't record things like getting penetration or setting great edge containment to force runs into the grasp of tacklers. Colvin had many of such plays in the game. Bruschi, as I can remember, got driven into the ground by a good number of blockers.

And when I do these breakdowns, I won't even look at the stats first. That diminishes my objectivity and gives me a scope of "who played better" before I even watch a minute of the tape.