Bedard: Turning the Corner

[Deus Irae]

Guyton was a coverage speed OLB who did an unexpectedly good job for a few months filling in for Mayo inside when he got hurt. Guyton is gone because, eventually, he couldnt tackle a teddy bear.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

No, I'm talking about Spikes' coverage ability. You're pointing to a couple of plays as if they're some refutation of his poor coverage abililties. I'm demonstrating that a player making a couple of plays doesn't mean that the player is good at it. These are NFL players, so they're capable of some level of play. However, Wilfork pulling in 2 INTs doesn't mean he can play cornerback.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't expect a lot from Cunningham myself. He had a fairly good rookie season as far as causing pressures. But you could see right away he lacked that extra burst to finish off the play and actually take down the QB. In his sophmore season, Cunningham became the invisible man. I don't know if he was struggling with the system, struggling with a nagging injury, or lost valuable development time due to the shortened offseason, but he was NOT a differencemaker.

If I were counting on someone in the linebacker group to step up I'd rather look to Scott, Spikes, Hightower, or Chandler Jones. There's also a good chance we're resigning Andre Carter once he gets healthy again. Spikes showed in the playoffs just how good he could be. He was making plays all over the field, and he's a fiery guy and a thumper when it comes to stopping the run. Hightower... quite possibly could be our impact rookie of the year on D. He just looks so ready and already has a pro body. His 1st day of camp looked good as well although it's early.

Now Scott is an interesting case, I wonder if he could turn into a TBC or Anderson for us? TBC after leaving the 49ers came in and had a double digit sack season. Same thing with Mark Anderson after leaving the Texans. It makes you think - is it the player or is it the Pats system that allows these guys to have that kind of success? Trevor Scott looks to be a guy poised to follow in the footsteps of other free agent impact pass rushers. He had 12 sacks over his first 2 seasons, but did very little in his past 2 seasons. Look for BB, the master of veteran linebacker 'makeovers' to find a use and a role for Scott. Their career trajectories look eerily similar. Can we say double digit sack possiblity?

anderson
Mark Anderson NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

scott
Trevor Scott NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Meanwhile we know what we're getting in Ninkovich, and that is a solid, versatile veteran.

And don't forget the Fanene pickup. He might be the Jarvis Green/Mike Wright pickup that the Pats have been looking for to apply some DL pressure and have been lacking since we lost those players. He has been averaging about 6 sacks per season the past 2 seasons. That's quite a bit of push to add to the defensive line. Love and Deaderick may have been adequate spaceaters, but they really don't give a lot of push in obvious passing situations, they each averaged 2 sacks per season over the past two seasons. Fanene could turn into one of those 'Brian Waters' type signings for the DL. A bit under the radar vet signing but overall a differencemaker.

Jonathan Fanene NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I'd say that the Pats are more stacked with front 7 talent then they have been in a long time. I'm still worried about our secondary. That's a big questionmark to see if McCourty/Dowling can step it up. Can gregory be the starter across from Chung, etc. But with an overall more talented and deep front 7, at least that should make the secondary's life easier. The less time a QB is given to get rid of the ball, the easier it gets for the secondary to hold their initial coverages.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Spikes isn't a good coverage LB. He's too slow to excel at it. He can make plays on the balls that he's in position to grab (see: AFCCG), but again, he's too slow to consistently be in position. I feel kinda bad for the guy, sometimes, watching him try to stay with tight ends. Then I remember that he gets paid millions of dollars to play football.

 

[Ring 6]

Spikes isn't a good coverage LB. He's too slow to excel at it. He can make plays on the balls that he's in position to grab (see: AFCCG), but again, he's too slow to consistently be in position. I feel kinda bad for the guy, sometimes, watching him try to stay with tight ends. Then I remember that he gets paid millions of dollars to play football.

I actually think that Spikes lacks the key skillls to be good in coverage, but noentheless does have good instincts, and can improve.
I think it is both correct to say he is underrated in coverage, and mediocre in coverage, as he is 'rated' as awful and really isn't.
He has a long way to go, and while he should come out is sub packages he is not a horrendous liability in the base.

 

[BHSL2]

I actually think that Spikes lacks the key skillls to be good in coverage, but noentheless does have good instincts, and can improve.
I think it is both correct to say he is underrated in coverage, and mediocre in coverage, as he is 'rated' as awful and really isn't.
He has a long way to go, and while he should come out is sub packages he is not a horrendous liability in the base.

Quoted for truth. My thoughts exactly.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't expect a lot from Cunningham myself. He had a fairly good rookie season as far as causing pressures. But you could see right away he lacked that extra burst to finish off the play and actually take down the QB. In his sophmore season, Cunningham became the invisible man. I don't know if he was struggling with the system, struggling with a nagging injury, or lost valuable development time due to the shortened offseason, but he was NOT a differencemaker.

Cunningham has every opporetunity to prove he belongs and can progress from 2010 as well as every opportunity to be cut. Personally I see talent there, so I am guardedly optimistic.

If I were counting on someone in the linebacker group to step up I'd rather look to Scott, Spikes, Hightower, or Chandler Jones. There's also a good chance we're resigning Andre Carter once he gets healthy again. Spikes showed in the playoffs just how good he could be. He was making plays all over the field, and he's a fiery guy and a thumper when it comes to stopping the run. Hightower... quite possibly could be our impact rookie of the year on D. He just looks so ready and already has a pro body. His 1st day of camp looked good as well although it's early.

I don't get the Scott love, although he is from Potsdam, NY where my oldest daughter goes to college so I am rooting big for him!!!!!
I think Hightower and Jones ultimatley become bookend 34 OLBs, with Hightower resembling the versatile pre07 Vrabel, and Jones being what we expected from Colvin pre injury. For 2012, its hard to tell what we will get.
Those 2 with Mayo and Spikes in the middle could make this, by 2014 or so, the best LB group we have had.
But a lot must go right between now and then.

Now Scott is an interesting case, I wonder if he could turn into a TBC or Anderson for us? TBC after leaving the 49ers came in and had a double digit sack season. Same thing with Mark Anderson after leaving the Texans. It makes you think - is it the player or is it the Pats system that allows these guys to have that kind of success? Trevor Scott looks to be a guy poised to follow in the footsteps of other free agent impact pass rushers. He had 12 sacks over his first 2 seasons, but did very little in his past 2 seasons. Look for BB, the master of veteran linebacker 'makeovers' to find a use and a role for Scott. Their career trajectories look eerily similar. Can we say double digit sack possiblity?

Again, I dont see the Scott love and hope I am wrong.

anderson
Mark Anderson NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

scott
Trevor Scott NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Meanwhile we know what we're getting in Ninkovich, and that is a solid, versatile veteran.

Who, if all goes well, is an awesome backup.

And don't forget the Fanene pickup. He might be the Jarvis Green/Mike Wright pickup that the Pats have been looking for to apply some DL pressure and have been lacking since we lost those players. He has been averaging about 6 sacks per season the past 2 seasons. That's quite a bit of push to add to the defensive line. Love and Deaderick may have been adequate spaceaters, but they really don't give a lot of push in obvious passing situations, they each averaged 2 sacks per season over the past two seasons. Fanene could turn into one of those 'Brian Waters' type signings for the DL. A bit under the radar vet signing but overall a differencemaker.

I expect Fanene to be the best inside sub package rusher we have had since Seymour who was the best inside sub package rusher I've seen in many years.
Of course 'best since' means somewhere between awesome Seymour and effective Wright, so lets hope its closer to the former.
We may end up seeing him as the best addition of the offseason.

I'd say that the Pats are more stacked with front 7 talent then they have been in a long time.

Depends on your definition of a long while. Aside from Wilfork and Fanene in sub, we don't have much to brag about at DL. The LBs potentially are interesting but its not exactly McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel in their prime with Phifer, Colvin, Johnson, Thomas in the wings.

I'm still worried about our secondary. That's a big questionmark to see if McCourty/Dowling can step it up. Can gregory be the starter across from Chung, etc. But with an overall more talented and deep front 7, at least that should make the secondary's life easier. The less time a QB is given to get rid of the ball, the easier it gets for the secondary to hold their initial coverages.

I'm actually encouraged about our secondary, and I think McCourty and Dowling at corner with adequate safety play and capable nickel and dime corners could actually make this unit a comparative strength.

 

[shmessy]

No, I'm talking about Spikes' coverage ability. You're pointing to a couple of plays as if they're some refutation of his poor coverage abililties. I'm demonstrating that a player making a couple of plays doesn't mean that the player is good at it. These are NFL players, so they're capable of some level of play. However, Wilfork pulling in 2 INTs doesn't mean he can play cornerback.

You compared a speed, coverage OLB to a run stuffing MLB. If you can't see the difference in their roles, I can't help you.

Apples to oranges.

You may as well compare Eric Kettani to Brandon Bolden.

 

[shmessy]

I don't see this as black and white, and I don't think BradyManny does either. I think it may seem that way because I asked him to focus on the linebackers since that's where my issue about the subject is based, but the D-line is much less entrenched as a 3-4/4-3, IMO.

I think he and I have a fundamental difference of opinion about the current LB talent on the team, and I think that's where our differences lie and why we're not able to resolve this. He seemingly thinks more highly of the ability of the LBs to cover in the 4-3 than I do.

So does Reiss:


"....4. The Patriots are working more out of a base 4-3 alignment on defense. Ultimately, as is usually the case, there will be flexibility and a multiple nature to the defensive scheme. But the days of the 3-4 as the pure base seem to be over.

5. When all is said and done, do you like the look of a linebacker corps that has Dont'a Hightower on the strong side, Brandon Spikes in the middle and Jerod Mayo on the weak side? We haven't seen that combination in camp, but if I had to guess, that's where it is headed. Hightower is strong, as evidenced by one jam of receiver Wes Welker that knocked Welker off his route. "

We'll probably see Carpenter coming in on 3rd downs.

 

[Deus Irae]

You compared a speed, coverage OLB to a run stuffing MLB. If you can't see the difference in their roles, I can't help you.

Apples to oranges.

You may as well compare Eric Kettani to Brandon Bolden.

Feel free to try starting something over my post, that I was obviously correct about. You'll have to to it with someone else, though.

 

[Deus Irae]

So does Reiss:


"....4. The Patriots are working more out of a base 4-3 alignment on defense. Ultimately, as is usually the case, there will be flexibility and a multiple nature to the defensive scheme. But the days of the 3-4 as the pure base seem to be over.

5. When all is said and done, do you like the look of a linebacker corps that has Dont'a Hightower on the strong side, Brandon Spikes in the middle and Jerod Mayo on the weak side? We haven't seen that combination in camp, but if I had to guess, that's where it is headed. Hightower is strong, as evidenced by one jam of receiver Wes Welker that knocked Welker off his route. "

We'll probably see Carpenter coming in on 3rd downs.

Actually, two things stand out here:

1.) Reiss is basing this on 2 practices, and that's basically meaningless, as the past has shown us time and again.

2.) Reiss does not say that he likes the coverage skills of the LBs and that he thinks they are better suited for the 3-4 than the 4-3. He merely comments on where he thinks things are headed.

 

[shmessy]

Deus Irae: "Feel free to try starting something over my post, that I was obviously correct about. You'll have to to it with someone else, though."

A couple of plays doesn't a full player make. I remember Guyton making a couple of plays. He's still gone.

Here ya go.

 

[Deus Irae]

Here ya go.

I know what I posted. Others got the point. That you may not have is an issue for you to worry about, not me. Maybe you can take a look at the Wilfork comment and figure it out.

You have yourself a great afternoon, though.

 

[shmessy]

Actually, two things stand out here:

1.) Reiss is basing this on 2 practices, and that's basically meaningless, as the past has shown us time and again.

2.) Reiss does not say that he likes the coverage skills of the LBs and that he thinks they are better suited for the 3-4 than the 4-3. He merely comments on where he thinks things are headed.

Yeah, right. Because someone like Reiss hasn't been around the block as much as you - - this must be the kid's first rodeo.


"He merely comments on where he thinks things are headed."

Which is different than what many of us in this thread are doing ....how????

 

[shmessy]

I know what I posted. Others got the point. That you may not have is an issue for you to worry about, not me. Maybe you can take a look at the Wilfork comment and figure it out.

You have yourself a great afternoon, though.

Incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc2o8ywKqos&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[State]

Bedard is great. I'm loving the winning spirit he senses at TC. I still miss Will McDonough, though, with his unparalleled access to the other teams' front offices. It's very helpful to know what they think of players the Patriots have chosen, which I'm esp. desirous with the Tavon Wilson head scratcher this year.

But I also wonder why Bedard didn't include Ron Brace. Where is Ron Brace? On the bubble, along with Cunningham.

We're pretty thin at DT. Pryor? Health issues last season. Vince. Best in the business but overused. Love. Decent player. Same for Deaderick. Thank goodness we have FA Fanene.

I think Brace's chances of making the roster stand at only 50%. (Mike Reiss agrees.) Bubble Watch: Ron Brace - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston It should be lower. But there aren't many 6'3" 320 pound men roaming the planet who can play in the NFL.

Are we content with Kyle Love beside Vince in the 4-3? I'd really like to see Brace step it up to provide a good rotation for the D line. And Warren can't have much left in the tank.

 

[Marqui]

Are we content with Kyle Love beside Vince in the 4-3?

Really? Are we content with Brady at QB?