Bedard: Turning the Corner

[Ring 6]

3-4 or 4-3 who shives a git?

The Pats will also play a 2-5 and 5-2 alot.

The Minuteman Scramble D looks designed to confuse greater football geniuses than us.

We really don't play 25 or 52. Unless you want to call a guy playing a LB position a DE because he could play their too,or vice versa,

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I think you are overestimating the differnce.

34 LDE = 43 LDE
34 NT= 43 DT
34 RDE = 43 DT

34 OLB = 43 DE

Then 34 OLB = SAM
34 ILB = MIKE
34 ILB = WILL

With very few exceptions, the personell are exactly the same.

Maybe you should restate the whole "debate".

In December, this team plays Houston and San Francisco back to back.

Based on your current observations, what you guesstamate for Q1- no score?

Tied middle of Q3?
Up 7 early Q4?
Up 14 with 5 minutes to go in Q4?

Ditto against Denver if Manning shows old form?

 

[Ring 6]

Maybe you should restate the whole "debate".

In December, this team plays Houston and San Francisco back to back.

Based on your current observations, what you guesstamate for Q1- no score?

Tied middle of Q3?
Up 7 early Q4?
Up 14 with 5 minutes to go in Q4?

Ditto against Denver if Manning shows old form?

Not quite sure what you are asking.
If we are in a base defense, which is what the discussion is about, it could either be a 34 or a 43, but the personell will probably be the same, so the difference is kind of moot.

 

[BradyManny]

I think you are overestimating the differnce.

34 LDE = 43 LDE
34 NT= 43 DT
34 RDE = 43 DT

34 OLB = 43 DE

Then 34 OLB = SAM
34 ILB = MIKE
34 ILB = WILL

With very few exceptions, the personell are exactly the same.

That's fair - and I agree that's why the debate is largely overstated. But there is one in there which I think has a tangible and thats 34 OLB = 43DE and 34 OLB = SAM. As soon as you ask Ninko or Scott or Jones or Bequette to stand up, that's when you are putting a higher premium on the skillset of dropping into coverage.

Only one of those guys in Ninko has done it at pro level.

 

[BradyManny]

Ninkovich has been a linebacker in his time with the Patriots. The Patriots could run Ninkovich/Mayo/Spikes/Hightower in the base. When you switch out of that base, you end up with Ninkovich/Jones/Bequette/Scott as your sub group.

Sure, no arguments here. Ninko has been an adequate OLB for us. But he's also the only guy on this roster that has been an adequate OLB for us. So that's not a load of depth there.

Ninkovich has also been cross-training at DE all this offseason, FWIW.

 

[Steve102]

Really good overview of where the 2012 team stands and what needs to happen for them to get where we all want them to go. I love his read on the current of quiet confidence (not to be confused with phony or arrogant swagger) this current assembly is exuding, that they like themselves and their chances. That has been something that was missing the last 3-4 years. Greg calls it the aroma of great expectations...

As a late 40-something (wow that hurt to write), I remember too vividly the dark times. I like a little confidence in the steps of those folks down on Route 1. Good read.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sure, no arguments here. Ninko has been an adequate OLB for us. But he's also the only guy on this roster that has been an adequate OLB for us. So that's not a load of depth there.

Ninkovich has also been cross-training at DE all this offseason, FWIW.

But you're just tossing things against a wall, rather than really dealing with my question. With Mayo, Hightower and Spikes, how is that a linebacking corps designed to play the 4-3 rather than the 3-4?

 

[BradyManny]

But you're just tossing things against a wall, rather than really dealing with my question. With Mayo, Hightower and Spikes, how is that a linebacking corps designed to play the 4-3 rather than the 3-4?

Spikes = MLB, Mayo & Hightower = OLB.

Mayo can play MLB too obviously, and Belichick laughed at questions of Mayo playing outside, but when it came down to it, he had Spikes playing a lot of MLB in the Super Bowl. And Spikes was a beast in the Super Bowl.

I'm not arguing that they don't make good SILB, WILB & 34OLB, as well.

 

[Deus Irae]

Spikes = MLB, Mayo & Hightower = OLB.

Mayo can play MLB too obviously, and Belichick laughed at questions of Mayo playing outside, but when it came down to it, he had Spikes playing a lot of MLB in the Super Bowl. And Spikes was a beast in the Super Bowl.

I'm not arguing that they don't make good SILB, WILB & 34OLB, as well.

Ok, if you can't see that there are coverage issues there, this is really not worth continuing.

 

[BradyManny]

Ok, if you can't see that there are coverage issues there, this is really not worth continuing.

It's all based on the matchups. Depends on who we are playing.

Even then, let's see what Hightower can do before we make judgements. I watched him drop into coverage a lot in the cutups I saw around draft time.

Where do you evaluate Mayo in coverage? Obviously Spikes is limited and gets by on football IQ and instincts, but I wouldn't call Mayo a liability.

And again, you can't ask me to evaluate that unit in coverage unless I know what personnel they're facing.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's all based on the matchups. Depends on who we are playing.

Even then, let's see what Hightower can do before we make judgements. I watched him drop into coverage a lot in the cutups I saw around draft time.

Where do you evaluate Mayo in coverage? Obviously Spikes is limited and gets by on football IQ and instincts, but I wouldn't call Mayo a liability.

And again, you can't ask me to evaluate that unit in coverage unless I know what personnel they're facing.

:bricks:

It's not all based on matchups, and it doesn't depend upon who they are playing. My request to you does not rely upon such things:

Please explain how this team is better suited to the 4-3 than the 3-4, focusing particularly on the linebackers, if you would.

You keep avoiding what I've asked you and making irrelevant arguments. What the team can/will do in a sub package isn't relevant. What the matchups are for a specific game isn't relevant.

These linebackers are best suited to be 3-4 LBs in the NFL.

 

[BradyManny]

You keep avoiding what I've asked you.

I already conceded it didn't have anything to do with the Mayo-Hightower-Spikes group. If those guys need a fourth LB to help them in coverage in the base D, then sure, you are right.

I can't argue with your premise if we are considering that a given, but you haven't told me why it is a given.

But if they don't need a fourth LB in coverage with them, if you can rush four, and if you can run a 4 man front, then you have a better shot of getting Chandler Jones on the field to help this defense sooner. Or Bequette. And these guys might have big impacts. It boils down to I think these young guys we drafted are ultimately going to impact the team more positively than Ninko is. And I like Ninko. But I don't think he's the Vrabel clone a lot of people think he is.

 

[Deus Irae]

I already conceded it didn't have anything to do with the Mayo-Hightower-Spikes group. If those guys need a fourth LB to help them in coverage in the base D, then sure, you are right.

I can't argue with your premise if we are considering that a given, but you haven't told me why it is a given.

We've seen multiple years of both Spikes and Mayo in coverage. It's clear that, while Mayo is much better than Spikes at coverage, Mayo is still average, and Spikes is a definite liability. What is it you think I would need to tell you that your eyes haven't already seen?

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Not quite sure what you are asking.
If we are in a base defense, which is what the discussion is about, it could either be a 34 or a 43, but the personell will probably be the same, so the difference is kind of moot.

When the Patriots play SF in December and it's Q1 and no score....what personnel grouping would you guestimate?

Likewise, it's Q1 and no score with Denver and fairly back to form Manning....what personnel grouping would you guestimate?

Say the Patriots are up two scores mid way through Q4, a guestimate?

This whole "debate" would be better serve to pick similiar opponent offenses and situational football vs a generic "base" debate.

SF and GB are considered the two best NFC teams. Does it make sense BB would have identical personnel groupings for similiar situations?

 

[BradyManny]

We've seen multiple years of both Spikes and Mayo in coverage. It's clear that, while Mayo is much better than Spikes at coverage, Mayo is still average, and Spikes is a definite liability. What is it you think I would need to tell you that your eyes haven't already seen?

I suppose I'm not willing to call Spikes a liability based on production. Ignoring his underwhelming straight-line speed, he's made a lot of plays in pass coverage.

If Belichick deemed Spikes & Mayo inadequate together in coverage in the base defense, I can only assume he would've drafted a Lavonte David type, and not a Hightower. They are going to roll a 4 man front out there at times no matter what - so at some point, those three guys are going to be the only LBs in coverage. Do you agree with that statement?

 

[Deus Irae]

I suppose I'm not willing to call Spikes a liability based on production. Ignoring his underwhelming straight-line speed, he's made a lot of plays in pass coverage.

To repeat what I said earlier:

k, if you can't see that there are coverage issues there, this is really not worth continuing.

If Belichick deemed Spikes & Mayo inadequate together in coverage in the base defense, I can only assume he would've drafted a Lavonte David type, and not a Hightower. They are going to roll a 4 man front out there at times no matter what - so at some point, those three guys are going to be the only LBs in coverage. Do you agree with that statement?

This assumption makes no sense at all, sorry. However, given the above, I think further discussion on this is just a waste of time.

 

[Ring 6]

That's fair - and I agree that's why the debate is largely overstated. But there is one in there which I think has a tangible and thats 34 OLB = 43DE and 34 OLB = SAM. As soon as you ask Ninko or Scott or Jones or Bequette to stand up, that's when you are putting a higher premium on the skillset of dropping into coverage.

Only one of those guys in Ninko has done it at pro level.

Scott has played 43 OLB. Bequette or Jones would be the OLB that rushes almost exclusively. Hightower is also a 34 OLB IMO.

 

[Ring 6]

When the Patriots play SF in December and it's Q1 and no score....what personnel grouping would you guestimate?

Likewise, it's Q1 and no score with Denver and fairly back to form Manning....what personnel grouping would you guestimate?

Say the Patriots are up two scores mid way through Q4, a guestimate?

This whole "debate" would be better serve to pick similiar opponent offenses and situational football vs a generic "base" debate.

SF and GB are considered the two best NFC teams. Does it make sense BB would have identical personnel groupings for similiar situations?

But the discussion is about the base defense, and its personell, not when it is used or who it is used against.
You are changing the discussion into something else.

 

[BradyManny]

This assumption makes no sense at all, sorry. However, given the above, I think further discussion on this is just a waste of time.

Fair enough. And maybe you're right. At the very least, you have forced me to re-think my assumptions.

I'd like to think a Hightower-Spikes-Mayo group, regardless of the front, allows this team to rush four, but that might just be wishful thinking on my part.

 

[BradyManny]

Scott has played 43 OLB. Bequette or Jones would be the OLB that rushes almost exclusively. Hightower is also a 34 OLB IMO.

Didn't realize Scott has played OLB. My bad.

Hightower can play anywhere, I think. It appears he has all the skillsets.