Bedard: Forget the Bills game...The Season Starts Now

[Deus Irae]

andre carter was not with the team in the super bowl.

That doesn't change the point about 2011. It just means that the team's best pass rusher got hurt.

also, i believe SMY retweeted something about the team Boyer coached on in college was ranked 71 of 86 in terms of defense...in NAIA competition. so he was a pretty terrible secondary coach then too.

Given a complete lack of context, that doesn't mean anything and doesn't show what you claim it shows.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Our defense is one of the best and most opportunistic in takeaways in the league, same as last year. We have a very formidable front 7, yet somehow we are one of the worst defenses in the league. This tells me we have talent, scheme is the issue and a coach like Wade can absolutely turn this defense around, more so than Patricia.

BB has been rebuilding and winning, rebuilding and winning, ever since 2008. Not many coaches can do that. We did not have, and do not yet have, an overwhelming pass rush, but it is getting better.

Over that time, the Offense has been massivley retooled.

Over that time, many talented Defensive players have been acquired. Proof is the very good turnover stats over the past three seasons. Integrating them into a consistent Defense has been slow however.

The LBing now has many talented stars in the making. The D line has several competent players and a few budding stars, too. A few more are needed.

The secondary is finally filling with talented players. Only Arrington has no credentials, but the Pats are very young on Defense in both the LBing and the secondary. You can't get complex until, you have some experience and accomplish simple things. You must crawl before you walk, and walk before you can run. Any good Coach knows that and there are few if any, better than BB.

Meanwhile he plays not to be beaten deep, and makes the opponents earn scores a little bit at a time.

The proof it works, is the winning records that he posts, despite some atrocious defensive stats. Others, without patience, try blitzing and suffer traumatic burns and accumulate losses. Better to win ugly, then lose spectacularly.

Stand in awe and watch a Master strategist and his minions at work.

 

[AzPatsFan]

You severely underestimate the importance of strategy and scheme in football. Just apply strategy in nearly every facet of life and look at how important it is to an individual or a teams success. You think that the NFL is based purely on %100 individual skill, i'm sorry to tell you it isn't. I hate your train of thought especially, because you completely remove coaching from the issue and label all who do, as bandwagon scapegoat witch hunters.

We can very well have a lack of talent issue as you have said numerous times before, my whole point is that the lack of talent CAN be fixed if we had the right strategy and scheme to mask those deficiencies while enhancing our efficiencies.

"Bend don't Break" is the proven, WINNING !!!!!! coaching strategy BB uses to cover for, and mask talent and experience deficiencies. If you can't tell the difference between the defensive talent on this edition of the Patriots and 2010 edition, you have little basis to post much here.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Sorry I take the opposite view-point from your example.

I attribute the takeaways to COACHING not Talent. There is a reason that these guys all come in to tackle with hand-chops and swats like Moore did in the playoff game and McC did yesterday. They have been TAUGHT IT.

So even though my gut would agree with the whole coaching needs to step up (that there are some flaws there -especially on turning around soon enough for the ball); I have to take the Deus line here. Talent is a bigger part of the issue.

ANYWAY, BB is NOT going to go firing and demoting someone mid-way through the season unless they completely self-destruct in public/in front of the team. He has WAY TOO MUCH LOYALTY to those he delegates to. [that is, he is TOO GOOD A LEADER TO DO THAT]. The best you can hope for is that he takes a closer mentorship role in practice on the D side and closer management during game day role. But he is not about to switch horses and send a bad message to the players.

I attribute the takeaways to COACHING, AND Talent. As I do too. Turnovers happen with youthful Speed, and also talent. Consistent, good Defense comes with well coached, talent and Experience.

 

[TomPatriot]

They had the same scheme last year, with lesser players, yet managed to improve a bit by the time the playoffs came around. So, what's the difference? Did the system become magically outdated in one year? Not likely.

The answer probably lies in injuries, inexperience and lesser seasons by Arrington and Chung.

The answer also may be the playoffs aren't here yet.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Via ESPN chat with Tedy Bruschi. He seems like he is leaning towards coaching. Pay attention to the last sentence he stated: "Uncontested TDs are a sign of an undisciplined defense"

Chat: Chat with Tedy Bruschi - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

Charles (Eureka, CA)

What do the Pats need to do to fix this pass defense? Getting Gregory back didn't help. Talib can practice this week but what will he really add?


Tedy (11:06 AM)

One of the biggest things that bothered me about this game were the coverage busts in the red area. There were two uncontested TDs by the Buffalo Bills -- to Scott Chandler and Donald Jones. Both touchdowns were a result of a lack of communication. The Buffalo Bills formed offensive sets that put their receivers in close proximity that caused traffic problems and forced communication. The proper adjustments are not being communicated. Uncontested TDs are a sign of an undisciplined defense.

As I recall they were both on a rookie LB, not secondary players. Hightower well get better with expereince.

 

[Deus Irae]

Poetic. But standing in awe is not what we do.

Instead we sit on our couches or in our upper deck seats in stunned silence as he is beaten deep. And beaten deep often. Standing is out of the question. Awe replaced by dread as some callow rookie or cast off back-up carves up the Master's creation like a Thanksgiving turkey.

For as much as we want to watch a Master strategist and his minions work, we are compelled to watch mediocre quarterbacks have the games of their lives, biting off ever bigger chunks of the Master's carcass. Twenty yards here, forty yards there. Touchdowns up the middle. First downs down the sideline.

Watching the Master strategist and his minions at work means praying for late interceptions, begging for receivers to stay in-bounds and for the clock to run out. Most weeks we are shown mercy. Some weeks not.

Where glory once reigned only grim, insecure terror now lives. The Master has become torturer and we are but his playthngs.

The terror is of our own making, though. As good as those early years were, 2003-2004 yielded a 28-4 record, and that was sandwiched in between 6 and 7 loss seasons. 2010-2011 yielded a 27-5 record. Since 2010 was a 6 loss season, the Patriots will have a better 4 year stretch after this year, unless they go sub .500 the rest of the way.

And those heady days had their fair share of close games, heart attack finishes and concerns about the team moving forward (2 overtime wins in 2003 come to mind as an example). We just forget them as our memories of the past 'improve' the truth over time.

 

[Ring 6]

Poetic. But standing in awe is not what we do.

Instead we sit on our couches or in our upper deck seats in stunned silence as he is beaten deep. And beaten deep often. Standing is out of the question. Awe replaced by dread as some callow rookie or cast off back-up carves up the Master's creation like a Thanksgiving turkey.

For as much as we want to watch a Master strategist and his minions work, we are compelled to watch mediocre quarterbacks have the games of their lives, biting off ever bigger chunks of the Master's carcass. Twenty yards here, forty yards there. Touchdowns up the middle. First downs down the sideline.

Watching the Master strategist and his minions at work means praying for late interceptions, begging for receivers to stay in-bounds and for the clock to run out. Most weeks we are shown mercy. Some weeks not.

Where glory once reigned, only grim, insecure terror now lives. The Master has become torturer and we are but his playthngs.

I'm sorry, but is the point to win, or to brag about how you win?
What is the record of 'the Master' vs these 'mediocre QBs' you claim have the games of their lives?
Care to guess what the record of the Patriots under BB is against teams that finished under .500 and how that compares to the league as a whole?
Your complaint is against an unachievable standard of perfection. This team in the last 3 years (which is what I assume you are driving at in your lamenting) has been 14-2, 13-3 with back to back 1 seeds and a trip to the SB and is currently 6-3 in control of its division which it has won 8 of the last 9 years losing only to a tiebreaker in the 9th.
Your comments sound as if you are speaking about the Jets, Redskins or Panthers.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

We've all been blaming a lack of talent in the secondary going on what, 5 years now?

Maybe it's not a lack of talent afterall!

 

[Deus Irae]

We've all been blaming a lack of talent in the secondary going on what, 5 years now?

Maybe it's not a lack of talent afterall!

They let Samuel walk and never adequately replaced him. Then they traded Hobbs, which was a mistake. They went and got Bodden who had one decent year before getting hurt. They drafted McCourty, who struggles in man coverage. Beyond that, it's a bunch of stiffs.


Of course it's about the talent. It's about talent with the KRs, too, since they've never adequately replaced Hobbs there, either, just as it was about the talent when the D-line couldn't stop anyone and it was about talent when the likes of Guyton were patrolling the middle of the defense.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

The terror is of our own making, though. As good as those early years were, 2003-2004 yielded a 28-4 record, and that was sandwiched in between 6 and 7 loss seasons. 2010-2011 yielded a 27-5 record. Since 2010 was a 6 loss season, the Patriots will have a better 4 year stretch after this year, unless they go sub .500 the rest of the way.

And those heady days had their fair share of close games, heart attack finishes and concerns about the team moving forward (2 overtime wins in 2003 come to mind as an example). We just forget them as our memories of the past 'improve' the truth over time.

So true. People seem to forget the heart attack games during those early years. I have all of those games on dvd, and I'll watch some during the offseason. Some of those wins were downright ugly, but they were wins, and thats what matters.

 

[Arrington Planet]

We've all been blaming a lack of talent in the secondary going on what, 5 years now?

Maybe it's not a lack of talent afterall!

Yes, because there there are so many players of our actual secondary who could go to another team and start there right away. Or guys who have been members these last years, failed here, and went to another team to earn a starting spot...

 

[DocHoliday]

Yes, because there there are so many players of our actual secondary who could go to another team and start there right away. Or guys who have been members these last years, failed here, and went to another team to earn a starting spot...

The irony of your screen name lol

 

[manxman2601]

Yes, because there there are so many players of our actual secondary who could go to another team and start there right away. Or guys who have been members these last years, failed here, and went to another team to earn a starting spot...

I think there are a few fans of other teams who would love to have Patrick Chung playing SS for their club. There are very few NFL teams that wouldn't start McCourty and just as Butler and Meriweather have found homes, I'm sure Dennard, Arrington and Gregory would all find spots on NFL active rosters. We're not the only team with a bad secondary.

 

[Arrington Planet]

The irony of your screen name lol

I feel like I've jinxed poor Arrington, haha.

I think there are a few fans of other teams who would love to have Patrick Chung playing SS for their club. There are very few NFL teams that wouldn't start McCourty and just as Butler and Meriweather have found homes, I'm sure Dennard, Arrington and Gregory would all find spots on NFL active rosters. We're not the only team with a bad secondary.

It says little good about Chung that, with the lack of talent the team has in their secondary, he looks right now pretty expendable. I'm pretty sure there are more than "very few" teams who wouldn't start Devin after what they've seen of him this last year and a half. I like Arrington, but he shouldn't be more than a ST ace and maybe a dime CB. Gregory would be a good guy to add depth, but he shouldn't be the unquestioned starter, that's for sure. And Dennard, I really like him, and I was very happy when they drafted him, but he's a 7th round rookie who, with his many rookie mistakes, is right now the best CB in the team (not counting Talib, obviously).

And I won't start with old players, but I will say that Brandon Meriweather isn't a good example, he lost his starting spot in Chicago after just 4 games, and hasn't even played this season for the Redskins. Butler seems to be doing ok, or at least better than him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Bottom line: If the 2009 draft had resulted in Jairus Byrd and Sean Smith instead of Chung and Butler, and if 2008 had resulted in Tyvon Branch instead of Wheatley, and if all other things remained the same, we're probably not having a bunch of people complaining about the pass defense in the defensive secondary.

The hindsight game is just about questioning Bill's genius as a talent evaluator and GM rather than coach. As for your alternatives, I'm sure there were reasons for their preferences. Just skimming their draft profiles underscores that. Smith was taken in the 4th just a few spots below our selection of Vollmer. He was thought to be poised for a breakout season he needs to get a second contract, and while he started out well he's apparently disappointed of late and appears to have cement hands... Jairus had himself quite a rookie season making the pro bowl on the heels of 9 picks (from some pretty unimpressive QB's). Wouldn't have helped in that post season though since he'd landed on IR by season's end. Since then he hasn't approached his rookie season performance statistically. Not sure Tyvon would still be here since he was a stretch franchise tag player who ended up signing a long term deal this summer for more than tag average...a $6.75M per safety who got $17M+ guaranteed on his 4 year deal.

And of course there is the caveat of scheme fit. In some cases these guys may be the benificiaries of the scheme they are working in.

 

[Pewsterbaby]

The team is currently about 1 DE, 1 pass defending LB, multiple DBs, some experience/seasoning, and maybe a return to the 3-4 base away from being a top tier defense. Hopefully, Talib will help with one of the DB spots.

That's it? Gee, they're almost there. So close! lol.
(You just typed a needs list that pretty much runs the gamut of "basic things required to field an effective NFL defense".)

 

[Deus Irae]

The hindsight game is just about questioning Bill's genius as a talent evaluator and GM rather than coach.

No, Mo, it's not. It's about pointing out that you need talent, when people are blaming the coaching.*

As for your alternatives, I'm sure there were reasons for their preferences...

Yeah, I really don't care. I wasn't calling anyone out for not making those deals. I was pointing out that, had the draft gone differently, people wouldn't be crying about the secondary coaches.





* Also, I've discussed Smith in the past, but it wasn't a "hindsight" issue, since I'd been high on him before the draft and wanted him chosen. Furthermore, trying to dismiss someone pointing to better draft picks as "hindsight" is just a weak way to squash discussion and dissent anyway, since the only way the picks can be accurately graded is by looking back after time has passed.

 

[jnug]

I have said this before but I really do think the defensive coaching including what BB kicks in should really be commended. This defense is in a very tough spot IMO from the D-line through the LB's and DB's.

While we focus much attention on the Pats pass covering schemes I still believe that BB has determined that he must keep guys on the field that are not great pass rushers as D-linemen and not great cover guys as LB's but that can stop the run. That dictates everything else.

If those run stoppers were not out there, the alternative players the Pats have that might be better as pass defenders would very likely get run over. In an age when rotating especially D-line players in order to keep a fresh pass rush has grown very popular, the Pats D-line guys are logging a really high % of snaps. So the run stoppers are logging a really high % of snaps in a league that is pass happy! I don't think BB has a choice here and I actually think what he is doing at a macro level makes a great deal of sense. May look ugly but he may well be doing his best coaching job ever this year.

We might complain that the team does not look like a juggernaut because of its defensive flaws and may not look like a team that can win a SB but if they were allowing themselves to get shredded by the run, a very real possibility....well then that is the dif between 6-3 and 3-6. However it does expose the Pats weak secondary, poor pass rush and generally poor pass coverage from the LBers.

I still think that BB is a great coach but as a GM has sort of hung on to his drafting methodology and his criteria for drafting defensive players a bit to long, making for a pretty tough job for BB the coach and frankly a team that has a tougher time working through the post season where the teams you meet are all good teams.

The deeper you get into the post season, the more games turn on an ability to make a play or not make a play and the way the NFL has changed over the past few years, those plays are now more physical plays. These are not as much plays that result from a perfect scheme perfectly executed by guys that may be smart football players but that are not necessarily physical, athletic specimens.

Were the Pats beaten in the last two SB's because our schemes let us down or because the opponent made more physically demanding, impressive plays at key moments in the game? I would contend that the superior athletes made better plays at key moments in the game. I would further contend that BB the GM needs to draft more talented physical specimens into his defense, especially in the secondary and especially if he wants to keep playing defense this way. It would probably be nice if we finally had at least one true animal of a pass rusher playing at the DE position. When we get deeper into the post season these days do we ever meet a team that does not have at least one pass rushing monster? We probably need one or two linebackers that would maybe not be the run stopper that you have in a Spikes or even a Mayo but that you could leave out there regardless of pass or run with reasonable expectation of assignments being executed regardless. In all cases these would be guys that are more impressive physical specimens than we normally field in our defense. Vince is not only our best defender, for his position he is very likely the most impressive physical specimen we put on the field in our defense.

As long as we have TB, our offense is fine. You can continue to put guys around TB and make it work. Maybe we even win the last SB if Gronk were not playing on half a leg. But the rules have changed enough in the NFL to force BB to draft more physical specimens into that defense. That is not really how BB has done it in the past choosing to for the most part move down, bring in more players and screen out the guys that don't appear capable of adapting to his complicated defensive schemes. I am not advocating a wholesale change to how BB drafts for defense. Just put a few more physical specimens out there than what we have now....maybe just one guy at each of the levels would be sufficient....an animal pass rusher at DE, a multifaceted LB and at least one real physical specimen for a DB, especially at CB. Maybe Talib already gives us what we need at CB.

The point is, all the problems are in the secondary....and there is little of it to me that is coaching related.