Bedard: Forget the Bills game...The Season Starts Now

[Bobs My Uncle]

WRT a lack of talent in the secondary. The Pats won a SB with the likes of R Gay, E Moreland, T Poole and T Brown manning spots in the secondary. These guys were coached-up big time. Either that or the scheme was better.

 

[Deus Irae]

WRT a lack of talent in the secondary. The Pats won a SB with the likes of R Gay, E Moreland, T Poole and T Brown manning spots in the secondary. These guys were coached-up big time. Either that or the scheme was better.

Those same defensive backfields had Rodney Harrison, Ty Law, Asante Samuel and/or Lawyer Milloy in them.

With the exception of McCourty's rookie season, before opponents got tape on him, the Patriots haven't had a top-quality DB on the team since Harrison retired, and one could argue that Harrison had fallen from that level even before his injury in 2008.

 

[jnug]

True, the Pats were able to scheme their way to successful pass defense in the past. But it has progressively become more and more a pass happy league since then. The NFL has continually made rules changes that favor passing offense, making schemes less successful as a means of stopping the opponent's passing offense. There is more of a premium on talent now as you just cannot rely on schemes as much. You need more guys that are big enough, fast enough and agile enough cause more often than in the past it will take an athletic play from the defender to stop the opponent.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Those same defensive backfields had Rodney Harrison, Ty Law, Asante Samuel and/or Lawyer Milloy in them.

Injuries forced the likes of Gay, Poole, Moreland and even Brown into playing significant time back then however.

 

[Marqui]

Those same defensive backfields had Rodney Harrison, Ty Law, Asante Samuel and/or Lawyer Milloy in them.

With the exception of McCourty's rookie season, before opponents got tape on him, the Patriots haven't had a top-quality DB on the team since Harrison retired, and one could argue that Harrison had fallen from that level even before his injury in 2008.

Lack of high level DB talent is a reason why their pass defense isn't top 10. It's not the only reason why their pass defense is bottom 4.

 

[Deus Irae]

Injuries forced the likes of Gay, Poole, Moreland and even Brown into playing significant time back then however.

Gay was a viable NFL corner before injuries derailed his career. Poole was a viable NFL corner and a first round draft pick. Brown was an emergency player who did a decent job in a very limited role, much like Edelman did after him.

Moreland started 2 games, and his tenure is one of the most overblown aspects of Belichick's time in New England. One could as easily say "The Patriots had Phillip Adams playing cornerback and Sergio Brown playing safety, and they still made the Super Bowl in 2011".

 

[Deus Irae]

Lack of high level DB talent is a reason why their pass defense isn't top 10. It's not the only reason why their pass defense is bottom 4.

You're absolutely right. Lack of cohesion because of an inability to get any sort of consistent lineup has been a huge problem this season.

 

[ralmat55]

It's funny that a defensive style that gets to the Super Bowl just about every other year is outdated. How's the attack defense working out in Green Bay? Here are the defensive scoring rankings, per Pro-Football-Reference.com, post-2007:

NE
8
5
8
15
15

GB
22
7
2
19
9

Well, GB was 2nd overall one year and ,if I remember right, they actually won a Super Bowl 2 years ago. So I'd say their attack defense has worked out pretty well for them.

Aside from the Patriots, has a team won a Super Bowl in the 2000s who didn't have a defense known for getting after the QB?

00 Ravens- no
02 Buccaneers - no
05 Steelers - no
06 colts - no
07 Giants - no
08 Steelers - no
09 Saints - no
10 Packers - no
11 Giants - no

Finally, do you really want to claim the Patriots got to the super Bowl in 07 and last year based on their defense?

 

[aluminum seats]

Lack of high level DB talent is a reason why their pass defense isn't top 10. It's not the only reason why their pass defense is bottom 4.

Yeah, exactly. What the head-in-the-sanders who refuse to acknowledge the mediocre coaching don't get is that it's understood that you can't have every position stocked with all-pros. That's where coaching comes in!

But again, if what we're hearing is true--that Belichick's going to start doing their jobs for them like last year--then there's cause for hope.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, GB was 2nd overall one year and ,if I remember right, they actually won a Super Bowl 2 years ago. So I'd say their attack defense has worked out pretty well for them.

The Patriots were 5th in scoring defense a couple of years back and just got the the Super Bowl last year. Using your own argument, their defense is working out for them.

Aside from the Patriots, has a team won a Super Bowl in the 2000s who didn't have a defense known for getting after the QB?

00 Ravens- no
02 Buccaneers - no
05 Steelers - no
06 colts - no
07 Giants - no
08 Steelers - no
09 Saints - no
10 Packers - no
11 Giants - no

The Colts '06? You're kidding with this, right? You can't ask the question below and go putting the Colts, Packers and Saints on this list.

Finally, do you really want to claim the Patriots got to the super Bowl in 07 and last year based on their defense?

I never made that claim. My position is pretty clear, so I don't know why you and Casanova are struggling to understand it. I'm not defending the defense. It's simple:

The team of the early 2000s had great players on all 3 levels of the defense. The team of the late 2000s and the 2010s to date has not had a single great player in the defensive backfield, and has had a very weak linebacking crew until this season. The main problem with the defense has been poor talent acquisition, not coaching. Even with the poor talent, the team has been in the top half of the league in scoring defense.

People were making the same claims about Dean Pees, but the defense hasn't turned around in his absence. In the meantime, Mr. Pees is now the DC of the 7-2 Baltimore Ravens

 

[Danger Zone]

Mangini was our best secondary coach ever - - and he's available

I'd rather have Rex when he gets fired at the end of the year ...or Romeo when he gets fired at the end of the year :nosmile: ...but after watching Fitzpatrick throwing on us at will, I personally will swallow my bilious hatred of the Mangina and welcome him on board with welcome arms.

Appropiate Godfather scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5m4jpUyb-g&feature=related

 

[ralmat55]

The Patriots were 5th in scoring defense a couple of years back and just got the the Super Bowl last year. Using your own argument, their defense is working out for them.



The Colts '06? You're kidding with this, right? You can't ask the question below and go putting the Colts, Packers and Saints on this list.



I never made that claim. My position is pretty clear, so I don't know why you and Casanova are struggling to understand it. I'm not defending the defense. It's simple:

The team of the early 2000s had great players on all 3 levels of the defense. The team of the late 2000s and the 2010s to date has not had a single great player in the defensive backfield, and has had a very weak linebacking crew until this season. The main problem with the defense has been poor talent acquisition, not coaching. Even with the poor talent, the team has been in the top half of the league in scoring defense.

People were making the same claims about Dean Pees, but the defense hasn't turned around in his absence. In the meantime, Mr. Pees is now the DC of the 7-2 Baltimore Ravens

I repeat. The Packers actually won their Super Bowl. There is a difference.

The 06 Colts had dwight Freeney who was a pretty good pass rusher. My point was their pass defense, as were the saints and packers, was predicated more on their rush than coverage. There are no No 2-gap - bend but don't break defenses on the list. The patriots success in 01, 03 and 04 was the exception and not the rule.

Should you really have to have great players at every level to have an average defense? Scoring defense stats aren't the tell-tale statistic you think they are. Holding a team to a field goal isn't a good thing when that field goal beats you.

 

[Deus Irae]

I repeat. The Packers actually won their Super Bowl. There is a difference.

No, there's not.

The 06 Colts had dwight Freeney who was a pretty good pass rusher. My point was their pass defense, as were the saints and packers, was predicated more on their rush than coverage. There are no No 2-gap - bend but don't break defenses on the list. The patriots success in 01, 03 and 04 was the exception and not the rule.

The 2007 Patriots were 2nd in the NFL in sacks. The 2011 Patriots had Carter and Anderson. Your argument is just not a good one.

Should you really have to have great players at every level to have an average defense? Scoring defense stats aren't the tell-tale statistic you think they are. Holding a team to a field goal isn't a good thing when that field goal beats you.

In the NFL, you don't win with crap players combined with crap coaching. How many years in a row do you need to see that? The problem here is that people are so spoiled that they can't tell the difference between Patriots horrible and truly horrible, and this is one argument where the homers are often correct. For all the crying about the defense, it's in the middle of the pack in points allowed despite that terrible secondary, just like last season.

Please, feel free to list all the defensive backs who've sucked on the Patriots and excelled elsewhere after moving on.

 

[Danger Zone]

Just a couple random thoughts:

I think that recruiting players in the NFL is a crapshoot, even by the very best of talent-evaluators.

Add to that the struggle of having to rebuild and its going to magnify the failures.

And I still insist that there is a real detrimental and tangible effect to the fact that year after year the Patriot draft-picks are pushed back to (nearly) the bottom of every round. Over the course of a decade this is going to have a cumulative effect on the draft.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Nope, because by and large he gets it's all on him (as their selector, trainer, supervisor). He's let some coaches or assistants walk for a variety of reasons (they were unhappy with their upward mobility here or in Pees case likely the scheme restrictions, he was unhappy with their impatience or x's and o's accumen, one had mental issues - and he was a former player tapped to be a db guru). He did however take playcalling control away from Mangini midway through his lone season as a DC here. He did that not officially or by acknowledging any change beyond he simply took away the red sweatshirt that designates the DC (a throwback to the days before they had communication systems in player helmets that still at times malfunction) for defensive players to be able to visually locate the DC for call signals on the sideline.

If he's in red next week and holding a laminated sheet instead of taking notes in his tiny binder we will know who is calling in the defenses and Patricia will be in a little trouble. If Pepper is in red Patricia will have significant issues. While if instead BB id just MIA on the sidelines and found kneeling in front of a group of DB's between series then what he will have done is taken over coaching of the secondary. Whether that leads to a position coaching shakeup down the road will remain to be seen.

At yesterday's game BB spent significant time with the likes of Cunningham and Ninko.

 

[Deus Irae]

At yesterday's game BB spent significant time with the likes of Cunningham and Ninko.

D-line coach must need to be fired... :bricks:

 

[Ivan]

You can't teach crap players

Lmao, yeah, they suck.

 

[Cassanova792]

Via ESPN chat with Tedy Bruschi. He seems like he is leaning towards coaching. Pay attention to the last sentence he stated: "Uncontested TDs are a sign of an undisciplined defense"

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/chat/_/id/45940

Charles (Eureka, CA)

What do the Pats need to do to fix this pass defense? Getting Gregory back didn't help. Talib can practice this week but what will he really add?


Tedy (11:06 AM)

One of the biggest things that bothered me about this game were the coverage busts in the red area. There were two uncontested TDs by the Buffalo Bills -- to Scott Chandler and Donald Jones. Both touchdowns were a result of a lack of communication. The Buffalo Bills formed offensive sets that put their receivers in close proximity that caused traffic problems and forced communication. The proper adjustments are not being communicated. Uncontested TDs are a sign of an undisciplined defense.

 

[BSR]

Via ESPN chat with Tedy Bruschi. He seems like he is leaning towards coaching. Pay attention to the last sentence he stated: "Uncontested TDs are a sign of an undisciplined defense"

Chat: Chat with Tedy Bruschi - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

Charles (Eureka, CA)

What do the Pats need to do to fix this pass defense? Getting Gregory back didn't help. Talib can practice this week but what will he really add?


Tedy (11:06 AM)

One of the biggest things that bothered me about this game were the coverage busts in the red area. There were two uncontested TDs by the Buffalo Bills -- to Scott Chandler and Donald Jones. Both touchdowns were a result of a lack of communication. The Buffalo Bills formed offensive sets that put their receivers in close proximity that caused traffic problems and forced communication. The proper adjustments are not being communicated. Uncontested TDs are a sign of an undisciplined defense.

That screams young and inexperienced to me, not scheme. Its exactly what Deus was saying.

 

[nekromantique]

No, there's not.



The 2007 Patriots were 2nd in the NFL in sacks. The 2011 Patriots had Carter and Anderson. Your argument is just not a good one.



In the NFL, you don't win with crap players combined with crap coaching. How many years in a row do you need to see that? The problem here is that people are so spoiled that they can't tell the difference between Patriots horrible and truly horrible, and this is one argument where the homers are often correct. For all the crying about the defense, it's in the middle of the pack in points allowed despite that terrible secondary, just like last season.

Please, feel free to list all the defensive backs who've sucked on the Patriots and excelled elsewhere after moving on.

andre carter was not with the team in the super bowl.

also, i believe SMY retweeted something about the team Boyer coached on in college was ranked 71 of 86 in terms of defense...in NAIA competition. so he was a pretty terrible secondary coach then too.